European Pattern of growth/density for Western US cities?

[jd3189]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Nice. Have you had a chance to make it up to Santa Barbara yet?

Not yet. Probably when I go up to the Bay Area. This summer has given me a lot of time and opportunities to travel around. I was in LA this past Sunday for Fathers’ day and still did not finish going through it. Today I went to Downtown San Diego and Coronado Island. There’s too much to see in SoCal alone.

[10023]

Sprawl is sprawl, but Western US cities could not be more unlike European cities (with the possible exception of SF, because it is an East Coast city transplanted to California).

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Quixote

What's "'old' LA" to you? I think just about everything east of Western is fair game. Lots of early 20th century housing stock is being razed and replaced with fugly 5-7 "shit boxes" (as we call them), but said stock is either too decayed, too low-density, too unworthy of architectural preservation, or a combination of those things to be spared of demolition.

Everything between the LA River and Western Avenue should be Manhattan-level density.

it's more of a feeling...and the old restaurants and dives. i'm speaking more of pre-war commercial/mixed use buildings.

i've spent too much time on the westside over the years to have a solid feel for the city of los angeles proper and will be diving into downtown and adjacent neighborhoods in a few weeks. too much wilshire and santa monica blvd over the years.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by 10023

Sprawl is sprawl, but Western US cities could not be more unlike European cities (with the possible exception of SF, because it is an East Coast city transplanted to California).

Why does everyone act like roads and current building stock is permanent and irreplaceable?

There is no reason why roads cant be widened or shrunk, density improved and road connections completed in the coming decades.

If Urban neighborhoods really continue in popularity whole tracts of Single Family will be flattened and replaced, We've seen that in Phoenix and LA already.

[MonkeyRonin]

Spanish cities in particular seem to be filled with these sorts of generally new-ish, non-descript but very urban buildings: https://goo.gl/maps/4o8spXCSVHGWwMfw8

A bunch of this kind of development in the coastal neighbourhoods of California would be an appropriate addition, I think.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Spanish cities in particular seem to be filled with these sorts of generally new-ish, non-descript but very urban buildings: https://goo.gl/maps/4o8spXCSVHGWwMfw8

A bunch of this kind of development in the coastal neighbourhoods of California would be an appropriate addition, I think.

That intensity is a little dense for the USA But these are pretty indicative of mass density under construction in the us today:

LA
https://goo.gl/maps/p8kNfbBhXL7Z2tyK6 https://goo.gl/maps/Q4d3kmvRiL8jjTSc9

Phoenix:

https://goo.gl/maps/7c1zcGtVAn63TB67A
https://goo.gl/maps/wdBwL2cSQmVZYYe68

San Francisco:
https://goo.gl/maps/vnNdSGvDH85pbiUW9
https://goo.gl/maps/xcopsS91W1MmUDfp8

Sacramento:
https://goo.gl/maps/X7J93rvJPVapiwSG9

Portland:
https://goo.gl/maps/npGTYzXSUK3tFAdc8

Tucson:
https://goo.gl/maps/jHQAJgB1tYoNjhM49

Dallas:
https://goo.gl/maps/wWn47eAo4WicmVT69


Not Impresive or extreme to European eyes but for Americans, especially out west or in the south this is a massive departure from what we considered "normal" just 20 years ago. (except for a few isolated pockets)

[AusTex]

Many of the above links showed housing ABOVE retail. This is wise in many areas to create a livable dense area. If one has many options within walking then we have a community like the Mediterranean and Europe in general vs. historical 20th century American cities. We are requiring this in Hyper developing Austin and it makes a big difference on the street level.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by AusTex

Many of the above links showed housing ABOVE retail. This is wise in many areas to create a livable dense area. If one has many options within walking then we have a community like the Mediterranean and Europe in general vs. historical 20th century American cities. We are requiring this in Hyper developing Austin and it makes a big difference on the street level.

Yeah I would say the urban form of today compared to the before time of 2008 and earlier is fantastic.

Back int he 00's and 90's it wasn't surprising for developers to produce the giant mega-block 9-5 vertical office parks or literally walled off Garden-style apartment complexes right in the city center.

And that's the few things getting build as, especially out west we were still in 100% full own suburban build mode and downtowns were basically written off as wastelands. The about-face nature of modern development patterns are practically shocking.

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Spanish cities in particular seem to be filled with these sorts of generally new-ish, non-descript but very urban buildings: https://goo.gl/maps/4o8spXCSVHGWwMfw8

A bunch of this kind of development in the coastal neighbourhoods of California would be an appropriate addition, I think.

There are hundreds of these that are currently under construction or have recently opened all over Los Angeles. Hundreds

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan

There are hundreds of these that are currently under construction or have recently opened all over Los Angeles. Hundreds

Except they're all monolithic shitboxes with tons of parking that do nothing for the pedestrian experience. Until LA's zoning codes no longer require parking minimums or setbacks, we'll continue to get mostly shit.

To be clear though, it's very hard to get urban infill right in general these days.

[badrunner]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Except they're all monolithic shitboxes with tons of parking that do nothing for the pedestrian experience. Until LA's zoning codes no longer require parking minimums or setbacks, we'll continue to get mostly shit.

To be clear though, it's very hard to get urban infill right in general these days.

Yeah LA's prewar apartment blocks are better than any of the examples posted on this page including the one in Spain. I love those old palatial apartment buildings on Rossmore and in the prewar multifamily neighborhoods of West Hollywood and Beverly Hills. High density in a park-like environment with no ugly parking poduims:

https://goo.gl/maps/ZVTVVMfHov892dpF6
https://goo.gl/maps/zBV2J2QMxGwXkqyG6
https://goo.gl/maps/MVAdTYbWXwNSN6HB6


gsv

[Quixote]

Yeah, 4+ story prewars are definitely worth saving. But I think the 2-story quadruplexes and single-family Craftsman bungalows east of Western should make way for higher density. Unfortunately, stuff like this is pretty few and far between:


https://image1.apartmentfinder.com/i...ding-photo.jpg

[Quixote]

Check this "shit" out. The site is flanked by two great prewars (worth saving), but the city requires setbacks in the front and on the sides. They couldn't care less about urban design. I'll be shocked if LA ever allows wall-to-wall style density outside of Downtown in my lifetime. I'm so fucking sick and tired of our suburban-minded populace and the clueless politicians running our city. You can't demand exorbitant amounts of parking and then wonder why traffic keeps getting worse, why housing is so unaffordable, etc.


https://urbanize.la/post/six-story-6...omes-koreatown

[badrunner]

Yeah that's pretty typical ugly new construction but if it's replacing two SFHs in the heart of the city I guess it's not too bad. I don't mind the parking if it's architecturally integrated (no boxy podiums) or out of the way behind the building. As for the setbacks on the sides, having a nice solid streetwall is probably the one thing that really gives a street that urban feel. There are some downsides though, like less windows per sq ft, no access to the rear of the building for utilities, garbage collection etc (it could work if you have alleys). In this case, there's already a prewar urban fabric with both adjacent buildings built right up to the lot line so there is no excuse not to do the same.

[badrunner]

As much as I like a solid streetwall, I think what makes LA unique is all those old fancy standalone apartment buildings that look like palaces or castles.

https://goo.gl/maps/QZD2uQcshNhYapiLA
https://goo.gl/maps/wDRVRxB21RTQmoTZ6
https://goo.gl/maps/2gCLjByM5qkrHemb9

The best example of this - the Chateau Marmont also used to be an apartment building. I'd like to see more distinct regional architectural styles instead of just aping the East Coast orthodoxy of what makes for good urbanism. Not every city has to look the same.

[dimondpark]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Just thought it was kind of weird to describe Lisbon as "quiet" - as though it were the lesser San Francisco.

It is the lesser San Francisco if a person wants to compare the 2 based on their San Francisconess. lol.

Anyhow Lisbon is a lovely city, I've visited a few times on business and for a wedding once, the place as I said is lovely, but it definitely is quieter overall, slower paced and is far less agitated than San Francisco.

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Except they're all monolithic shitboxes with tons of parking that do nothing for the pedestrian experience. Until LA's zoning codes no longer require parking minimums or setbacks, we'll continue to get mostly shit.

To be clear though, it's very hard to get urban infill right in general these days.

Not arguing that at all, just merely pointing out that the city and county are building similar developments to what he had pointed out

[jd3189]

Originally Posted by badrunner

As much as I like a solid streetwall, I think what makes LA unique is all those old fancy standalone apartment buildings that look like palaces or castles.

https://goo.gl/maps/QZD2uQcshNhYapiLA
https://goo.gl/maps/wDRVRxB21RTQmoTZ6
https://goo.gl/maps/2gCLjByM5qkrHemb9

The best example of this - the Chateau Marmont also used to be an apartment building. I'd like to see more distinct regional architectural styles instead of just aping the East Coast orthodoxy of what makes for good urbanism. Not every city has to look the same.

Exactly. Miami is also similar in that account of its prewar stuff. That’s the type of urbanism that the Sunbelt cities should strive towards instead of the NE standard.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by badrunner

Yeah that's pretty typical ugly new construction but if it's replacing two SFHs in the heart of the city I guess it's not too bad. I don't mind the parking if it's architecturally integrated (no boxy podiums) or out of the way behind the building. As for the setbacks on the sides, having a nice solid streetwall is probably the one thing that really gives a street that urban feel. There are some downsides though, like less windows per sq ft, no access to the rear of the building for utilities, garbage collection etc (it could work if you have alleys). In this case, there's already a prewar urban fabric with both adjacent buildings built right up to the lot line so there is no excuse not to do the same.

Alley-less Manhattan still builds wall-to-wall density without any problems. In the case of LA, you can still have side setbacks behind the street-facing facade to allow for more windows and emergency ingress/egrees.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Alley-less Manhattan still builds wall-to-wall density without any problems. In the case of LA, you can still have side setbacks behind the street-facing facade to allow for more windows and emergency ingress/egrees.

Well, not without any problems at all. Because of no alleyways, everybody has to throw their trash on the sidewalks twice a week for trash pickup. During the summer it contributes to the city's garbage dump fragrance.