New York’s Vanishing Diners

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by Chef

As far as why diners are disappearing it is pretty simple. They don't sell the food that Americans want to eat. In general Americans tend to have a low opinion of traditional American foods, even if it is well made. People want ethnic genre foods or pizza. The American food that is popular now tends to be lighter and healthier and more focused on creativity - salads, wraps, things like that. The one niche that diners have left is breakfast, those that do it well will probably be around indefinitely.

That's funny, because diners in the Los Angeles area also sell things like that. I think if diners are to survive, they have to change their menu to keep up with what people like to eat. A diner I go to near my apartment has fish tacos on the menu, which I occasionally get. They also have really good salads, in addition to the typical diner fare like chicken pot pie, french dip sandwiches, chop steak, chicken fried steak, etc.

Some diners in the Los Angeles area have closed down, but some are seemingly going on pretty strongly. We also have delis that seem to be doing very good business too.

What has indeed died off are cafeteria-style eateries; hehe my partner called the cafeteria and their kind of food "old white people food." When Clifton's in downtown LA reopened some years ago with much fanfare, we were wondering how long it would last, because we figured no hipster would be into cafeteria-style dining and the food that goes with it. I believe now, Clifton's is even changing their format.

And then of course there are the buffets, which, my partner and I are not big fans of at all. We've always found food at buffets to be mediocre at best. And then there are the Asians that love to go to the AYCE Asian buffets.

[dc_denizen]

New York's improving tastes.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Ontario raised it's minimum wage to $15 (CAD mind you so a little less in terms of buying power than in the US, but not crazy different) last year and there hasn't been any job losses or any real significant impact to the restaurant business. I'd say that fast food places have a renewed pace of attempting to minimize labour costs (increased push of mobile ordering, self serve machines) and restaurant prices went up maybe 10% to accommodate it, but nothing crazy.

This isn't true. Many restaurants have closed here in Toronto as the tandem of rising rents and wage increases have done them in.

[pico44]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

New York's improving tastes.

Yup. The media is always looking for further evidence of New York's tragic passing, but this is simply more evidence of its vitality. Diners serve reliably terrible food, end of story. No need for hand-wringing or tears.

[the urban politician]

^ The suggestion that these family-owned diners are being replaced left and right by higher quality restaurants is nonsense.

The issue is rising rents, and the only businesses that can afford the rent are chains, or a non-restaurant establishment altogether (bank branches, mattress stores, etc).

Goodbye Merv's Diner, hello Jimmy John's!

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ The suggestion that these family-owned diners are being replaced left and right by higher quality restaurants is nonsense.

It's true. Those "family owned" diners are cashing out for millions, moving to Floriduh or wherever, and getting replaced by infill with ground floor retail, usually with high quality ethnic food of some sort. Sysco crap replaced by Tibetan momos or Georgian khachapuri. Yes, please!

Example- there was a horrible old-school chrome diner in Brooklyn called the El Greco. Sold for $13 million and replaced by a condo with a Turkish restaurant, Ukranian beer hall and gourmet Russian market. And has zero to do with gentrification- this is in Sheepshead Bay.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Em...!4d-73.9503651

The diner closed because the South Brooklyn old-school ethnics are dying out or have moved away, and the site was far too valuable to keep in former use. And a former stagnant, tired retail corridor is revived with new money and blood, despite no hipsters and nothing remotely cool. Win for everyone.

[the urban politician]

^ I have a hard time believing that your one successful anecdote is anywhere close to the norm.

Everybody knows that when the rent gets too high you usually don't see a business replaced by a family-owned ethnic falafal shop, despite some examples I'm sure you are going to provide to the contrary.

Rising rents typically kill off small businesses and favor corporate chains.

Of course, what you are describing is more likely to occur in the outer boroughs where the major reason diners leave may not be the rent, but shifting demographics. But that's not what the original article that started this thread was about. It was about rising rents, taxes, labor costs, and gentrification.

[Angalfaria]

We love to go out to a family dinner on birthday, anniversary, and other occasions. The children are interested in such type of vanishing dinner. So it is good news to all of us that a better vanishing dinner in now Newyork.

[10023]

This is nostalgia for nostalgia’s sake. About 95% of these places serve inedible food and and the preparation and ingredients are of the sort one sees on Kitchen Nightmares (canned vegetables, pre-made dressings, etc).

Good riddance. They can be replaced with amazing food from all over the world, or even places with a more American/European basis that actually use good local ingredients prepared properly with a focus on quality.

[dc_denizen]

Hopefully the same thing will soon happen to America’s Chinese restaurants.

[woodrow]

Late to this conversation. What the diners were good for was late night. In my neighborhood there used to be multiple late night diners. Gone or shortened hours. It is nostalgia on my part to a certain extent, but man I had fun late night good times and so-so food in the 90's and early aughts.

Outside of my personal bubble, they did add some life to the streets at night and gave people a place to be. Read "A Clean, Well-Lighted Place"

[Chisouthside]

didnt know there were so many Hannibal Lecters on this board!
diner food can be so so but theyre great for breakfast and late night for sure. When i lived in the Bay(and specially the south bay) i definitely missed a good late night diner!

[JManc]

Originally Posted by 10023

This is nostalgia for nostalgia’s sake. About 95% of these places serve inedible food and and the preparation and ingredients are of the sort one sees on Kitchen Nightmares (canned vegetables, pre-made dressings, etc).

Good riddance. They can be replaced with amazing food from all over the world, or even places with a more American/European basis that actually use good local ingredients prepared properly with a focus on quality.

I think you miss the point of a diner. There's a reason people go to places Denny's and IHOP and why they're so popular...because they quick, convenient and open late.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by 10023

This is nostalgia for nostalgia’s sake. About 95% of these places serve inedible food and and the preparation and ingredients are of the sort one sees on Kitchen Nightmares (canned vegetables, pre-made dressings, etc).

Good riddance. They can be replaced with amazing food from all over the world, or even places with a more American/European basis that actually use good local ingredients prepared properly with a focus on quality.

For you, everything is inedible

Anyhow, they won't be replaced by amazing food from "around the world". Watch chains take over.

[mhays]

Seattle isn't getting a lot of national chains. One reason is that City labor laws tend to be much tougher on them...the "secure scheduling" law in particular.

Semi-related...my office on the edge of Downtown has an odd situation for lunch. In one direction the Pike Place Market is a mob scene at lunch (office workers plus tourists) but aside from some of the sit-down restaurants and bars it's a 7x9 hour weekly schedule, with much of the takeout closing around 5:00 or 6:00. In the other direction, Belltown is full of restaurants but quite a few only open for dinner and drinks.

Why? The Market is built around one-person operations for much of the retail, and the takeout places follow suit even if they have street frontage. I really wish this would change. As for Belltown, I think that between the $15/hour wages, family leave, and other well-meaning measures it's expensive to run at marginal times. Belltown's growth tends to be residential (despite bordering south Amazonia, where everything has long lines for lunch) which doesn't help much during weekday lunches. The neighborhood has a fair amount of daytime use but just not enough. Speaking as a Belltown resident as well, I'd like to see more hotels and offices mixed in.

[mrnyc]

old school nyc diners that can't adapt fade, but it's not like there aren't new, modern versions taking their place.

ie., this pick and eat on bway/177st in wash hts is pretty great. smoothies, wraps, etc.:

https://goo.gl/maps/dMiJmD3CU5kHMBBu5

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

It's true. Those "family owned" diners are cashing out for millions, moving to Floriduh or wherever, and getting replaced by infill with ground floor retail, usually with high quality ethnic food of some sort. Sysco crap replaced by Tibetan momos or Georgian khachapuri. Yes, please!

Example- there was a horrible old-school chrome diner in Brooklyn called the El Greco. Sold for $13 million and replaced by a condo with a Turkish restaurant, Ukranian beer hall and gourmet Russian market. And has zero to do with gentrification- this is in Sheepshead Bay.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Em...!4d-73.9503651

The diner closed because the South Brooklyn old-school ethnics are dying out or have moved away, and the site was far too valuable to keep in former use. And a former stagnant, tired retail corridor is revived with new money and blood, despite no hipsters and nothing remotely cool. Win for everyone.

in manhattan around my way i notice old school diners being replaced by ... diners.

ie., the diners at ninth ave at 23rd and 14sts.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by Chef

As far as why diners are disappearing it is pretty simple. They don't sell the food that Americans want to eat. In general Americans tend to have a low opinion of traditional American foods, even if it is well made.

I think the popularity of TV shows like Guy Fieri's "Diners, Drive-ins and Dives", as well as his cook books and other related items, put the lie to that.

The real problem is that in most of America good independent diners are mostly a matter of history. "Casual" chain places have killed them off. Independents are favored mostly by locals who know and love them. Tourists, newcomers, passers-by don't know if an independent place is good or not so they choose the chain place that's the same all over the country. But a few diner type independents with a national reputation do amazing business. New Orleans may be the hot spot for such places like Mother's or Majoria's.

Majoria's Commerce Street Restaurant (New Orleans)

https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en...oiowCnoECAsQBg

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by JManc

I think you miss the point of a diner. There's a reason people go to places Denny's and IHOP and why they're so popular...because they quick, convenient and open late.

But mostly because you've eaten in one in some other town and know exactly what it'll be like.

[maru2501]

sometimes you just want a bowl of f*cking soup that isn't $23