DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[BG918]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

I know; I got that. I wasn't disagreeing with you. I'm just saying, these place names are subjective and fluid. Everyone has a different idea of where the borders are, and what encapsulates what. That Five-Points/Ballpark//RiNo/Curtis Park area is the most confusing part of the city that probably sparks the most debate over what is what. And I don't think most people think of RiNo as an arts district so much as a neighborhood, so that distinction may only cause even more confusion.

When I left Denver, 30th and Larimer was not RiNo. When I came back 10 years later, it was. Something had changed. Why does this bother me? I don't know. I guess I like order and tradition.

A few years ago that was considered Upper Larimer. I haven’t heard that term in awhile though it’s all RiNo now. And RiNo has two distinct sections east and west of the tracks: the west side is centered on Brighton Blvd with actual river frontage and the east side centered on Larimer (and Walnut to a lesser extent) with a major sub-District emerging around 38th & Blake Station.

[Agent Orange]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

SoBo would be the last straw. That would be intolerable.

Oh it's already a thing. And yes it's intolerable. I love how they conveniently lost the "R" from bRoadway to avoid the association with the BroDo and broey/fratty shenaniganas. How do you get "Bo" from "Broad"? It's maddening.

This Upper Larimer name is interesting. I definitely feel like the Brighton corridor and Larimer corridor need separate names. They're both in the "River North Arts District", sure, but they are geographically removed from one another and have a different feel. Yet most people seem to call it all RiNo. I'm curious why it wasn't Lower Larimer though... it's more downhill, no? Just like Lower/Upper Downtown, it should follow the elevation/flow of the river, I would think.

[Stonemans_rowJ]

My favorite is Bonnie Brae Flowers.

[BG918]

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

Oh it's already a thing. And yes it's intolerable. I love how they conveniently lost the "R" from bRoadway to avoid the association with the BroDo and broey/fratty shenaniganas. How do you get "Bo" from "Broad"? It's maddening.

This Upper Larimer name is interesting. I definitely feel like the Brighton corridor and Larimer corridor need separate names. They're both in the "River North Arts District", sure, but they are geographically removed from one another and have a different feel. Yet most people seem to call it all RiNo. I'm curious why it wasn't Lower Larimer though... it's more downhill, no? Just like Lower/Upper Downtown, it should follow the elevation/flow of the river, I would think.

Here is an older map (circa 2006? The C line still terminates at Union Station, no E and W lines) that shows Upper Larimer but no reference to RiNo. Like it or not in the minds of most Denverites that whole area is considered RiNo even though I agree the Walnut/Larimer corridor should be separate from the Brighton Blvd corridor.

This map also still shows everything as Highlands instead of breaking off LoHi which came about closer to 2011 when Linger opened and that area started to really redevelop.

Also it still shows the Union Station area as Riverfront (clearly the two are separate areas now) and Prospect Park which I haven't heard in many years, that area is now Union Station North and north of that is Denargo Market.



https://wiki--travel.com/map-of-downtown-denver-neighborhoods.html

[CharlesCO]

That map is probably from summer 2000 when the C line opened. The C line has always gone to Union Station, though the platform was moved. What's missing are the TREX-era southeast lines (E/F/H). But what really dates that map is seeing "Mile High Stadium." The stadium once known as Invesco Field didn't open until 2001.

I agree that "RiNo" didn't exist until the mid/late 2000s. I always thought of the Walnut Room as being in Five Points when really, I would probably say it's in RiNo now. Tosh's Hacienda was also in Five Points, and now, Tosh's is, well, not there.

The RiNo Arts District cites its creation in 2004 stemming from a city study of the area. So that aligns about right with my memory that "River North" or "RiNo" definitely wasn't a thing in the early 2000s.

https://rinoartdistrict.org/about

And here is what I think that refers to: a 2003 study, entitled the "River North Plan." The boundaries are broadly defined as Park Ave West, the BNSF tracks, and I-70. Even then, the plan divided the area up into "two north–south corridors and one east–west corridor connecting three districts, four neighborhoods and downtown Denver."

https://www.denvergov.org/content/dam/de...ents/planning/Plans/River_North_Plan.pdf

[RyanD]

Hey all, sorry I've been a bit quiet lately. To make it up, here's a pano I shot this evening.

[BG918]

Very nice Ryan. How many of those buildings didn't exist 10 or even 5 years ago? Amazing transformation of the Union Station area. Now we just need to fill in the last hole at 19th & Chestnut.

The towers currently under construction at McGregor Square (Rockies West Lot) will make a visual impact from this angle. Also the proposed 8 story hotel in the little lot north of the viaduct at 20th & Chestnut if it gets off the ground.

[TakeFive]

It must be a conservative conspiracy

https://chiefexecutive.net/2019-best-worst-states-for-business-an-overview/

The more things stay the same, the more they stay the same – at least if you’re the best and worst states in America for doing business. But if you’re somewhere in the middle of the rankings, there are real prospects for changing CEO perceptions, just not always for the better.

In that regard, the best states can practically do no wrong, with their inherent advantages enhanced by enlightened administrations continually finding ways to be welcoming to CEOs and their economic booty.

https://chiefexecutive.net/2019-best-worst-for-states-business/

2019 Best & Worst States For Business

1. Texas
2. Florida
3. Tennessee
4. North Carolina
5. Indiana
6. Nevada
7. Arizona
8. South Carolina
9. Ohio
10. Georgia ... 12. Colorado

50 California
49 New York
48 Illinois
47 New Jersey
46 Connecticut
45 Massachusetts
44 Oregon
43 Washington
42 Hawaii
41 Vermont

After being a Top Ten state for years, Colorado is still relatively high but is now headed downward.

CEO's understandably tend to be business conservative but also practical which generally lends to being socially tolerant as they prefer to avoid ideological politics.

How much does it matter?

Being a coastal state will generally trump politics but not entirely. While it takes decades, migration patterns are telling: mostly north to south and east to west. Many of the 'old guard' states now have the messiest financial problems and challenges.

Colorado has been 'discovered' and is likely more resilient than many states. Certainly the last decade has been amazing. A decade from now? How messy will it get?

[Cirrus]

It's all about what you measure.

States by total GDP:
1. California
2. Texas
3. New York
4. Florida
5. Illinois
6. Pennsylvania
7. Ohio
8. New Jersey
9. Georgia
10. Washington
11. Massachusetts

States by GDP per capita:
1. Massachusetts
2. New York
3. Connecticut
4. Alaska
5. Delaware
6. North Dakota
7. Wyoming
8. California
9. New Jersey
10. Washington
11. Maryland

[mhays]

Lists like "best for business" start with the writer's agenda. They count the stuff THEY like. It's basically clickbait unless there's a ton of context, which there typically isn't. So people get suckered.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

It's all about what you measure.

Certainly different bananas but interesting to compare the two for a few reasons.

Using the 'expenditure method' which they do, GDP will favor higher cost-of-living states but also high-earner states. Think Wall Street and Silicon Valley for example. While California may chase away a lot of business it's still the epicenter for tech Unicorns and instant printing of millionaires; enough to make it the 5th largest economy in the World. Their ripple affects are somewhat geographical or spill over to nearby states.

Illinois may be fraying at the edges but Chicago remains rock solid in the center. It's tradition of being in the center of the country and the center of agribusiness and many commodity based businesses in general provide solid stability - at least at the center.

The lists are somewhat opposite as industry intentionally doesn't move to the "highest standard of living" states, for the most part. CEO attitudes and decisions are more about future trends. Boeing didn't choose So Carolina based on its GDP but rather other things like cost of doing business. Tech Unicorns are less concerned about costs but still find them appealing resulting in the rise of Austin and the RTP in No Carolina as examples.

NYC will always be 'global' city; I don't see anything likely to change that. D.C. will always host the nation's capitol and Virginia will continue to benefit from its proximity.

Colorado by comparison is hidden gem now discovered for those who are more adventurous.

Originally Posted by mhays

Lists like "best for business" start with the writer's agenda. They count the stuff THEY like. It's basically clickbait unless there's a ton of context, which there typically isn't. So people get suckered.

Not necessarily agenda driven or at least not politically but miscellaneous factors vary widely, that's true. Fair to say there can be a fine line between 'like' and what is deemed important and why. Context is always important to understanding, that's a definite.

[mhays]

No, these can be very much about opposite ideas.

For example some value high public investment in education, transportation, etc., and others want lower taxes. Some want restrictions on sprawl (to protect the value of buildings for an obvious example), and others want easy sprawl. Some want no environmental controls, and others want to protect as much as possible.

The highest-value industries tend to go for the high-investment method....software development, biotech R&D, and investment banking for example.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by mhays

No, these can be very much about opposite ideas.

For example some value high public investment in education, transportation, etc., and others want lower taxes. Some want restrictions on sprawl (to protect the value of buildings for an obvious example), and others want easy sprawl. Some want no environmental controls, and others want to protect as much as possible.

The highest-value industries tend to go for the high-investment method....software development, biotech R&D, and investment banking for example.

Eh, there is certainly differences between what companies prioritize, that's fair. But most 'business' surveys are more composite summaries than site finders for a specific industry. There has been for example cities - not states - that are known as financial centers but that's a different thingy. Clusters are common knowledge so companies in specific industries like to 'cluster' but most generic surveys aren't interested in that other than to possibly make note of it. Some industries are intensive energy users so they'd be more interested in cost of energy but this is common sense.

The CEO survey would be a summary of overall feedback and not specific to any one company. Whatever their agenda might be would reflected by the agendas of All CEO's.

CNBC, for example, has maybe the most comprehensive survey.

We score all 50 states on more than 60 measures of competitiveness, developed with input from a broad and diverse array of business and policy experts, official government sources, the CNBC Global CFO Council, YPO and the states themselves. States receive points based on their rankings in each metric. Then we separate those metrics into 10 broad categories, weighted based on how frequently each is used as a selling point in state economic development marketing materials. That way, our study ranks the states based on the criteria they use to sell themselves. This year some states were tied.

In other words they rely on feedback from the states themselves for part of their ratings. You're welcome to suggest what you think their agenda is.

Forbes has their own listed categories and their results have been publicized since 2006. You tell me what you think their agenda is?

US News & World Report uses five categories to provide their business "environment."

As part of its annual Best States rankings, U.S. News scored states' business environments on the basis of variables such as entrepreneurship, tax burdens, patent creation, venture capital and the presence of major corporate headquarters.

Inc. is specifically a small business survey which compiles the results from more than 7,500 participating small business owners and small business owners are notoriously known to be conservative but the survey results are what they are meaning no hidden agenda that I'm aware of.

The Tax Foundation is an excellent source for tax information by state but doesn't pretend to consider other various important or relevant components.

Can't say I share your skepticism.

[mhays]

CNBC doesn't work on my computer (ad blocker) but I notice my state ranks #2, while it was near the bottom of the first list you posted. Good example of total apples-vs-oranges.

Let's also call BS on their methodology, including this gem: "Then we separate those metrics into 10 broad categories, weighted based on how frequently each is used as a selling point in state economic development marketing materials."

I'm sure that works for selling magazines, but wow these guys aren't taking their job seriously, or maybe they really are that dumb.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by mhays

CNBC doesn't work on my computer (ad blocker) but I notice my state ranks #2, while it was near the bottom of the first list you posted. Good example of total apples-vs-oranges.

Let's also call BS on their methodology, including this gem: "Then we separate those metrics into 10 broad categories, weighted based on how frequently each is used as a selling point in state economic development marketing materials."

I'm sure that works for selling magazines, but wow these guys aren't taking their job seriously, or maybe they really are that dumb.

Ah, Okay, now we can get closer to being on the same wave length. They don't all parrot each other for various reasons, that's very true.

When you suggested what they "like" I assumed you meant something more devious. What CEO's "like" doesn't mean the survey itself had agenda intentions; that's just the reflection of CEO opinions. And btw, CEO's might not "like" the business 'climate' of Washington but still believe they need to be there.

With respect to CNBC their results are more of a "scorecard on state economic climate" which does include an 'infrastructure' category while U.S. News instead includes a "presence of major corporate headquarters" category so yeah for sure there are differences in parameters and results.

You might want to try a different ad blocker if you can't even access CNBC. I use U-block basic I believe. Hmm, clicked on their methodology page and Trend Micro did warn of some not good stuff there. Interesting...

I wouldn't share your level of cynicism though.

I'm sure that works for selling magazines, but wow these guys aren't taking their job seriously, or maybe they really are that dumb.

Didn't even know they had a magazine but their reason is thus:

That way, our study ranks the states based on the criteria they use to sell themselves.

Who knows a state's strengths better than the state itself? So you don't want Washington's knowledge of itself to be included because it's dumb? Okay, fair enough. Maybe that's why Washington rated so high. It thinks too much of itself. I'll buy that.

[mhays]

That makes no sense, on so many levels.

First, states have all sorts of ways of getting their messages out, and finding one single website (or any cross-section of same) is an absurd starting point.

Second, you're talking about stuff written by marketing people like me in cooperation with whoever is leading whatever organization they happened to use for the article. Based on the one-line explanation, a state that's wordy and repetitive probably scores higher than one that's more high-level.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by mhays

That makes no sense, on so many levels.

First, states have all sorts of ways of getting their messages out, and finding one single website (or any cross-section of same) is an absurd starting point.

Second, you're talking about stuff written by marketing people like me in cooperation with whoever is leading whatever organization they happened to use for the article. Based on the one-line explanation, a state that's wordy and repetitive probably scores higher than one that's more high-level.

I don't disagree; it does sound a bit different. Except how much does it affect the copious amounts of empirical data they collect. They really don't say how much the 'weighting' amounts to; does it add a mere 5% to this category versus a different category? It may be more fluff than substance; you may be assuming way too much but since Micro Trend warned me about their methodology page I didn't bother to look for more clarification. Anyway I don't obsess over any of these various ratings. They may suggest future trends or not; they may spot current weaknesses but does anybody even care?

[Agent Orange]

It looks like Tom's Diner is getting closer to redevelopment as an eight story apartment building. https://businessden.com/2019/05/14/toms-...tus-as-developer-eyes-apartment-project/

The developer's portfolio appears to be mostly strip malls and lifestyle centers. https://albdev.com/great-places/

[SirLucasTheGreat]

The tiny home village in RiNo moved to Globeville yesterday. Does anyone have information related to the apartment building that is planned for that site in RiNo? I know that it is supposed to be 16 stories.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

It looks like Tom's Diner is getting closer to redevelopment as an eight story apartment building. https://businessden.com/2019/05/14/toms-...tus-as-developer-eyes-apartment-project/

The developer's portfolio appears to be mostly strip malls and lifestyle centers. https://albdev.com/great-places/

That was an eye-opener. Alberta's forte has been building 'life-style' or mixed use centers in the burbs. They did a nice job of re-doing Southglenn SC into the 'Streets of Southglenn.' They also proposed a stepped-up density development at Orchard Station but Greenwood Village nixed that fine plan.

Colorado homebuilder plans to build 840 new homes in Denver suburbs
DBJ has a piece on Century Communities's plans which include some much needed more affordable homes.

With the exception of the single-family home communities going up in Erie and Castle Pines, the other projects line up with Century Communities’ recent strategy of building more lower-priced homes.

It's still amazing the difference...

Of course, affordability is all relative to the market. New homes Century Communities is building in Texas can start as low as $160,000. In Colorado, an affordable single-family new-build starts in the $300,000s, said Tammy Zink, vice president of sales and marketing for the homebuilder.

Fremont Place in Littleton has 130 condominium units starting in the high to mid-$300,000s. More units are planned for a future phase.
LIV City Center in Aurora is a condo project where the 135 units start in the low $200,000s.