ATLANTA | Development Thread VI

[Ant131531]

Hopefully it's an urban style Publix and not a Fuqua style.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

Hopefully it's an urban style Publix and not a Fuqua style.

Someone on reddit mentioned the plan is to close the Publix a few blocks to the North. Maybe we see redevelopment proposals not too long in the future for that site as well? If that's the case and the JR crickets redevelopment gets off the ground, it could really drive more development along North Ave to the EST.

Related, I hate that 725 North is essentially a decent proposal on top of a big box store. The big box store portion still seems to greet North ave and its surrounding neighbors like crap:

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

Someone on reddit mentioned the plan is to close the Publix a few blocks to the North. Maybe we see redevelopment proposals not too long in the future for that site as well? If that's the case and the JR crickets redevelopment gets off the ground, it could really drive more development along North Ave to the EST.

Related, I hate that 725 North is essentially a decent proposal on top of a big box store. The big box store portion still seems to greet North ave and its surrounding neighbors like crap:

You really think this looks bad? You at least have to compliment the ways they designed it along the Beltine...

[Libertarian]

Street Advocate, there was a more or less open RFP process. Weingarten Realty was the only serious interest as I recall, and they were awarded but backed out of the deal after a year or so, which reopened the property for consideration. I'm not sure if a second RFP was needed, especially as Atlanta Housing Authority is a government entity. Mayor Reed said "it will be a community for everyone, no matter a family’s income." Probably in reality it will gravitate to low income. Hopefully they can find some space for a properly managed rehabilitation facility for homeless.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

You really think this looks bad? You at least have to compliment the ways they designed it along the Beltine...

I'm speaking specifically to the 3 other sides, where there's a big box footprint. There is no big box footprint on the BeltLine facing side. Before there was the BeltLine and PCM, there's been Poncey Highland. If there's a big box store without access and engagement on North Ave or the eastern facade, it's a big finger to everyone who would access without walking along the BeltLine, particularly residents to the east of the proposal. Here's the kicker though, I have not viewed any renderings to the east, so there very well may be access from the east (or maybe even the south, although it is not shown in any renderings). It just does not appears so thus far.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

I'm speaking specifically to the 3 other sides, where there's a big box footprint. There is no big box footprint on the BeltLine facing side. Before there was the BeltLine and PCM, there's been Poncey Highland. If there's a big box store without access and engagement on North Ave or the eastern facade, it's a big finger to everyone who would access without walking along the BeltLine, particularly residents to the east of the proposal. Here's the kicker though, I have not viewed any renderings to the east, so there very well may be access from the east (or maybe even the south, although it is not shown in any renderings). It just does not appears so thus far.

I believe my first pic above is a view from North Ave. If someone is walking there from North Ave, realistically is it going to killing them to walk around to Ponce?

Most grocery stores only have a glass front entrance and the other 3 sides are used for refrigeration equipment and storage. Most importantly grocery stores with pharmacies limit the store design to one entrance because the crackheads wanting a opioid fix are huge security risk. It is also the reason most grocery stores are opening 24 hours a day - a pharmacist told me this.

[ATL_J]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

I am curious how the Civic Center site sold for $31 Million/20 acres, when the Turner Field GSU/Carter site sold for $30 Million/76 acres in 2016 and included a $200 Million baseball field. At least for $31 Million, the Atlanta Housing Authority has commitec to 30% workforce housing.

Not all land has the same value. Outside of GSU, who would want / utilize the stadium? The facility is far too big for most users - upkeep would be unfeasible.

[montydawg]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

I'm speaking specifically to the 3 other sides, where there's a big box footprint. There is no big box footprint on the BeltLine facing side. Before there was the BeltLine and PCM, there's been Poncey Highland. If there's a big box store without access and engagement on North Ave or the eastern facade, it's a big finger to everyone who would access without walking along the BeltLine, particularly residents to the east of the proposal. Here's the kicker though, I have not viewed any renderings to the east, so there very well may be access from the east (or maybe even the south, although it is not shown in any renderings). It just does not appears so thus far.

You have to have a loading dock somewhere. Also, for a grocery store it is not feasible having enterences on every side as the checkout area is going to be on one side of the building. I don't think those SFM along boneventure want any passing through on their side. Also, it appears the developer is building a ramp along the north Ave for beltline access, so at least there will be something useful in that side. I think it's a great project and can't find anything to complain about. Let's concentrate our energies on the Texas strip mall developer who appears just scored the civic center. most of their portfolio makes fuquas creations look ultra urban.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

I believe my first pic above is a view from North Ave. If someone is walking there from North Ave, realistically is it going to killing them to walk around to Ponce?

Most grocery stores only have a glass front entrance and the other 3 sides are used for refrigeration equipment and storage. Most importantly grocery stores with pharmacies limit the store design to one entrance because the crackheads wanting a opioid fix are huge security risk. It is also the reason most grocery stores are opening 24 hours a day - a pharmacist told me this.

Plenty of grocery stores have more than one entrance/exit or at least provide more retail surrounding the building. If you lived on the street to the east of the development, and they propose a new grocery store... wouldn't you want a new style other than the big box BS you dealt with previously? It's not hard to engage people and existing neighborhoods and they shouldn't be given a pass even if the design along the beltline is well thought out. For all intents and purposes, they missed an opportunity. Atlanta should aspire to big-box-less in their walkable neighborhoods. Otherwise, we're just making the same mistakes over and over

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

Plenty of grocery stores have more than one entrance/exit or at least provide more retail surrounding the building. If you lived on the street to the east of the development, and they propose a new grocery store... wouldn't you want a new style other than the big box BS you dealt with previously? It's not hard to engage people and existing neighborhoods and they shouldn't be given a pass even if the design along the beltline is well thought out. For all intents and purposes, they missed an opportunity. Atlanta should aspire to big-box-less in their walkable neighborhoods. Otherwise, we're just making the same mistakes over and over

The East side or Somerset Terrace NE is single family homes.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by ATL_J

Not all land has the same value. Outside of GSU, who would want / utilize the stadium? The facility is far too big for most users - upkeep would be unfeasible.

I agree no two pieces of land are necessarily valued the same. However, there is no way an acre in Summerhill should sell for $425K (2016) and a Civic Center acre of land to sell for $1.5 Million in 2017.

RFK Stadium, the former Washington DC Redskins Stadium, has sat vacant for over 2 decades. The yearly maintenance costs is $820K a year. Keep in mind there is a significant difference in the size and maintenance cost for a football stadium vs. baseball field. Not to mention, you need to tack on a 30 - 40% premium because of DC compared to Atlanta maintenance costs.


https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s...1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-b-1

Those costs for the fiscal year ended Sept. 30 included $1.24 million in security guard services paid to Allied Barton and $820,718 in maintenance costs — payments to HVAC companies, electricians, plumbers, construction companies, groundskeepers, temporary staffing firms and others, according to Department of General Services' records provided to the WBJ through a Freedom of Information Act request.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

The East side or Somerset Terrace NE is single family homes. ]

Somerset & North Ave has condos on the east side of the intersection... Somerset has a mix of multi-family, SFH, and retail towards Ponce. That said, Kroger and what should be more engaging along North Ave wouldn't just be for those on Somerset. It would be for existing and future developments from essentially Boulevard to Moreland in order to provide more active spaces to the neighborhood. Not to mention to support the upcoming North Ave transit. Otherwise, we're just wasting land use. People will gladly walk by the Publix for cheaper and potentially better produce options at Kroger, the opportunity to see people walking around, and to avoid the hassle of potentially being hit by a car/walking around the Publix parking lot. It would also create additional services for the local community. Instead, we have a grocery store that faces the BeltLine and offices above. While that portion is great, all that does is provide an insular development which engages along the park, but not particularly with the existing community.

I'm not saying this is a bad project. I'm saying 725 could have been better. And merely plopping a big box store down in the same exact spot with an office building on top and minimal community input was not the appropriate way to go about things.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

Somerset & North Ave has condos on the east side of the intersection... Somerset has a mix of multi-family, SFH, and retail towards Ponce. That said, Kroger and what should be more engaging along North Ave wouldn't just be for those on Somerset. It would be for existing and future developments from essentially Boulevard to Moreland in order to provide more active spaces to the neighborhood. Not to mention to support the upcoming North Ave transit. Otherwise, we're just wasting land use. People will gladly walk by the Publix for cheaper and potentially better produce options at Kroger, the opportunity to see people walking around, and to avoid the hassle of potentially being hit by a car/walking around the Publix parking lot. It would also create additional services for the local community. Instead, we have a grocery store that faces the BeltLine and offices above. While that portion is great, all that does is provide an insular development which engages along the park, but not particularly with the existing community.

I'm not saying this is a bad project. I'm saying 725 could have been better. And merely plopping a big box store down in the same exact spot with an office building on top and minimal community input was not the appropriate way to go about things.

SA, You may very well be right, I just see what you are saying. Below is the view where 725 Ponce meets at North Ave. Basically the whole South side/North Ave. is below grade/under pass. Without doing a massive engineering project to bring this part of North Ave to grade, I am not sure what the developers could improve upon?

http://https://www.bing.com/maps?q=ponce+city+market&FORM=HDRSC4

[Verge]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

SA, You may very well be right, I just see what you are saying. Below is the view where 725 Ponce meets at North Ave. Basically the whole South side/North Ave. is below grade/under pass. Without doing a massive engineering project to bring this part of North Ave to grade, I am not sure what the developers could improve upon?

http://https://www.bing.com/maps?q=ponce+city+market&FORM=HDRSC4

The wall is gone on the north side as the 725 development has its parking deck at street level-- I believe that the Beltline DRC required some fenestration on North Ave.

[Street Advocate]

755 is just another example of not making the most of the space. Tiny sidewalk, huge wall, and inactive space on the south side of north ave. 725 tore up the entire thing to be bridge and can create whatever presence they design for the area. We can either accept the same inadequate street presence, or we can make some noise and demand a better walkable environment here and throughout Atlanta. I choose the latter.

[A-town]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

Somerset & North Ave has condos on the east side of the intersection... Somerset has a mix of multi-family, SFH, and retail towards Ponce. That said, Kroger and what should be more engaging along North Ave wouldn't just be for those on Somerset. It would be for existing and future developments from essentially Boulevard to Moreland in order to provide more active spaces to the neighborhood. Not to mention to support the upcoming North Ave transit. Otherwise, we're just wasting land use. People will gladly walk by the Publix for cheaper and potentially better produce options at Kroger, the opportunity to see people walking around, and to avoid the hassle of potentially being hit by a car/walking around the Publix parking lot. It would also create additional services for the local community. Instead, we have a grocery store that faces the BeltLine and offices above. While that portion is great, all that does is provide an insular development which engages along the park, but not particularly with the existing community.

I'm not saying this is a bad project. I'm saying 725 could have been better. And merely plopping a big box store down in the same exact spot with an office building on top and minimal community input was not the appropriate way to go about things.

I know exactly what you're talking about. As I to share a similar experience in West Midtown. I can see the Atlantic Station Target from my living room window. And yet I have no direct way of accessing it because I'm on the other side of the train tracks. When that Target was built they didn't think to incorporate direct access to the preexisting surrounding community. And you see this all over Atlanta. Big box retail, grocery stores and strip malls with entire communities behind them and no direct access. Either by foot or car. I feel developers should start incorporating more pedestrian walk paths into their designs that connect with the preexisting surrounding community. We have to design for cars but we should also do it for pedestrians. And be mindful of all the ways people could potentially enter a building. Interconnectivity is key to the pedestrian experience and it starts by where you can comfortably get on foot.

[montydawg]

Originally Posted by A-town

I know exactly what you're talking about. As I to share a similar experience in West Midtown. I can see the Atlantic Station Target from my living room window. And yet I have no direct way of accessing it because I'm on the other side of the train tracks. When that Target was built they didn't think to incorporate direct access to the preexisting surrounding community. And you see this all over Atlanta. Big box retail, grocery stores and strip malls with entire communities behind them and no direct access. Either by foot or car. I feel developers should start incorporating more pedestrian walk paths into their designs that connect with the preexisting surrounding community. We have to design for cars but we should also do it for pedestrians. And be mindful of all the ways people could potentially enter a building. Interconnectivity is key to the pedestrian experience and it starts by where you can comfortably get on foot.

Those train tracks are owned by Norfolk southern and unfortunately it is a bitch to convince them to build objects over their right of way. westside provisions did it, but they have property on both sides. Seems like it would have been an uphill battle to get this done.

[pica]

On the east side of 725 Ponce there will be a new entrance directly on North Avenue, not using Somerset Terrace. I presume this will include a pedestrian entrance. The land between the new entrance and Somerset will presumably be redeveloped in some way that addresses North Ave. On the west side, there is the staircase and elevator in the PCM "boiler building". If the facade along the street itself won't be activated that seems like a fair trade for the building meeting the Beltline itself as its main entrance. As it shares developers with PCM, it seems safe to assume that North Ave. will get new, Beltline-overlay-compliant sidewalks and a landscaped buffer to enhance the pedestrian experience.

An interesting aside: the development of 725 Ponce will remove one impediment to transit on the Eastside Trail. The plan for transit is to use the westmost of the two bridges spanning North Ave., with the trail to go on the east. When the eastside trail was built, the trail couldn't be built on the eastern bridge because it would have required land that ABI didn't own, and that was being used as part of the Kroger's loading dock area. ABI and 725 Ponce's developers have agreed to build the trail through that part of the new development.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by montydawg

Let's concentrate our energies on the Texas strip mall developer who appears just scored the civic center. most of their portfolio makes fuquas creations look ultra urban.

Since maddawg is shit stirring (j/k) let me chime in, but on anther development.

Howell Mill & 14th Street - "Interlock": the discussion began here:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=7979721&postcount=5804

I have bit my tongue since this was announced November 8th. I would have thought all of the die hard anti-fuqua urbanites would have assembled a militia to prevent a suburban developer, SJ Collins, from getting there hands on this property. Take a look at their website: http://sjcollinsent.com. Not one urban development and all consist of surface parking and big box retailers.

Let's examine the site plan released May of this year (see below). Did anyone look at the # of required parking and the # of provided parking spots for the retail and residential sites. SJ Collins is providing 15% more parking spaces than is required for the retail sites and 21% more for the residential sites.

Not one person has posted anything other than praise for this development when they are planning to add almost 1,500 PARKING SPACES. Again, I totally respect everyone's opinion, but the lack of consistency boggles my mind. Especially when Madison Yards and Underground developments have been demonized. Help me understand your logic...

[ATL_J]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

I agree no two pieces of land are necessarily valued the same. However, there is no way an acre in Summerhill should sell for $425K (2016) and a Civic Center acre of land to sell for $1.5 Million in 2017.

RFK Stadium, the former Washington DC Redskins Stadium, has sat vacant for over 2 decades. The yearly maintenance costs is $820K a year. Keep in mind there is a significant difference in the size and maintenance cost for a football stadium vs. baseball field. Not to mention, you need to tack on a 30 - 40% premium because of DC compared to Atlanta maintenance costs.

Yea, there is a way, it happened, and it happens all the time. Location, frontage, sizes, etc. all play a part in what people will pay for land. There are lots in Midtown that are currently listed for $3.0 M and $7.7 M an acre, there is a lot on Ponce / Moreland listed for $4.2 M / acre. This is all significantly higher than the Civic Center site, just as the Civic Center site sold for a higher amount than Turner Field. It is not surprising that Carter / GSU got this land, along with a stadium that would have to be re-purposed or torn down, at that price. I'm not sure what relevance your RFK Stadium example adds, other than to accentuate that a large stadium is an albatross that would drive down the land value for most buyers as they have to take into account demo costs. I'm not sure why there is a struggle to understand these concepts.