Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[Reecemartin]

As far as Surrey goes supposedly they are moving forward considering both Skytrain and LRT for the Fraser Highway Line. My intuition says similar to with the original Evergreen line the province will push that in the direction of Skytrain as well. As far as the L line goes, I think building it as an LRT is not so much a bad idea as it is not a priority because with proper ROWs it could certainly be faster than current bus service and it will be higher capacity than BRT.

Something which is a pretty interesting question IMO is how they will expand Expo Line capacity following the extension to Langley, why did they only order 4 car MK 3's aren't the stations already capable of 5 cars? I'd imagine extending the Line to Langley will actually bring very significant ridership increase.

[Xrayal]

From the Tri-City News:

Which route do you prefer for 159/169?

... Currently, the 169 operates as a direct link between Coquitlam Central Station and Braid Street Station in New Westminster via Lougheed Highway while the 159 travels from Port Coquitlam to Braid through a meandering route that includes the Mayfair and Pacific Reach industrial areas around United Boulevard.

The new options would see the 159 become the more direct route to rapid transit while the 169 would service the industrial areas...

TransLink notes that since the opening of the Evergreen Line, the 169 has seen a decrease in ridership of 75% while the 159 has experienced a 10% drop.

Sarah Ross, TransLink’s director of system planning, said the transportation authority has heard from riders of the 159 who are not happy with the circuitous route they have to take to get to SkyTrain.

“We have had a lot of feedback on that route over the years,” she said during Monday’s council-in-committee meeting in Coquitlam.

One of the new route options would see the 159 begin at the Port Coquitlam West Coast Express station and travel down Shaughnessy Street before turning on to Pitt River Road and eventually meeting up with the Mary Hill Bypass. From there, the bus would move onto the Lougheed Highway and head straight to Braid.

The other option would see the 159 loop its way through the Mayfair area around Glacier Street before moving to Lougheed and on to Braid.

The 169 does not change significantly in either option, travelling down Lougheed before turning into the Mayfair area and heading to Braid Street via the Pacific Reach industrial area.

TransLink is asking for the public's feedback on future transit changes as part of its Transit Network Review, which will take place between Feb. 14 and March 6.

It would be interesting to see the compass boarding data on these routes.
I actually know current riders of the 159 who complain about it.
I think this rework is a good thing overall for the system.

Here are my mock-ups for the route changes.
159 and 169 ruoting swap by mullux, on Flickr

[dpogue]

If they change the 169 to go along United Boulevard, then it's effectively the same as the old 177 route.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

As far as Surrey goes supposedly they are moving forward considering both Skytrain and LRT for the Fraser Highway Line. My intuition says similar to with the original Evergreen line the province will push that in the direction of Skytrain as well. As far as the L line goes, I think building it as an LRT is not so much a bad idea as it is not a priority because with proper ROWs it could certainly be faster than current bus service and it will be higher capacity than BRT.

Something which is a pretty interesting question IMO is how they will expand Expo Line capacity following the extension to Langley, why did they only order 4 car MK 3's aren't the stations already capable of 5 cars? I'd imagine extending the Line to Langley will actually bring very significant ridership increase.

Except that TransLink's own study shows that LRT would only be a minute faster than the CURRENT B-Line, capacity will not be an issue for a long time to come, and LRT will cost a billion more

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Except that TransLink's own study shows that LRT would only be a minute faster than the CURRENT B-Line, capacity will not be an issue for a long time to come, and LRT will cost a billion more

This is obvious though, the cost and speed shouldn't be a surprise which is why I said it's not a priority. Hypothetically though an LRT has alot of benefits that buses will never match, capacity being a major one. With the significant growth in South Surrey in particular I can certainly imagine LRT being justified but, as I mentioned it should not be a priority because other lines such as Fraser Highway Skytrain offer much more ridership potential.

I think the constant negativity about LRT is somewhat misdirected LRT works but nobody would deny that Skytrain is superior, if we think of transportation as a hierarchy LRT still falls above buses because of some of rail transits inherent benefits and again the significantly increased capacity.

[Sheba]

This really belongs here and not in the Millennium extension thread.

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Yeah they should really start looking into making it less hub and spoke and to quit funnelling all routes into Downtown Vancouver. They can start with revamping the nightbus system and maybe have some more routes not connected to SkyTrain stations.

I'm not against using Skytrain stations as the new version of exchanges. I'm with you on making the routes more grid-like (as TransLink knows by all the e-mails they have from me... )

Originally Posted by nname

364 is supposed to be a frequent south cross-town route on 64th. This route had done slightly better than the other two, so it was spared of being "optimized". But still, it is only managed to run every half-hour and no late night service. Peak load is 21 and capacity utilization is 23%.

The majority of routes outside of CoV are every half hour.

[Express691]

Since was the minimum stored value load for adult cards $5?

Was loading my mom's adult card at Waterfront and I saw an option for $5

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Express691

Since was the minimum stored value load for adult cards $5?

Was loading my mom's adultimate card at Waterfront and I saw an option for $5

I don't know, but I'd guess a large number of people bitching caused TransLink to lower the amount.

I looked for it on Wiki and found there are seven versions of the Compass card:

• Light Blue - Adult
• Orange - Concession (children and seniors)
• White - CNIB
• Yellow - Contractors
• Dark Blue - Translink Employees
• Magenta Red - personalized Program Passes such as:
  * BC Bus Pass Program clients (low income seniors and individuals receiving disability assistance from the Province of British Columbia)
  * Access Transit/Handy Card
  
  
• Green - 2016 Commemorative Limited Edition, for the opening of the Evergreen Extension.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I'm not against using Skytrain stations as the new version of exchanges. I'm with you on making the routes more grid-like (as TransLink knows by all the e-mails they have from me...

I think that they should really look into optimizing the impromptu exchanges like the one at Brighouse to reduce walking distance between station and bus bays as well as better synchronization of bus and train runtimes. I don't like having to text 33333 and find out the 404 is leaving just as I arrive at Brighouse and having to make a mad dash to bay 5a or bay 7 (diagonally across the intersection twice). Also, they should have buses only stop at one bay during their time at the exchange. Exchanges should be compact and comprehensive.

[Mac Write]

Coquitlam Central Exchange needs to be moved to under or beside the Skytrain Station, or even in between the Skytrain station and West Coast Express station. Having to walk 1-2 blocks in distance is difficult for allot of disabled people.

For me as a disabled person, I can't use CC as the bus exchange it just too far from the station.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

This is obvious though, the cost and speed shouldn't be a surprise which is why I said it's not a priority. Hypothetically though an LRT has alot of benefits that buses will never match, capacity being a major one. With the significant growth in South Surrey in particular I can certainly imagine LRT being justified but, as I mentioned it should not be a priority because other lines such as Fraser Highway Skytrain offer much more ridership potential.

I think the constant negativity about LRT is somewhat misdirected LRT works but nobody would deny that Skytrain is superior, if we think of transportation as a hierarchy LRT still falls above buses because of some of rail transits inherent benefits and again the significantly increased capacity.

Rail transit has absolutely no inherent benefits, except as you mentioned, capacity. But Broadway has proved that buses can hold their own in capacity just fine.

I disagree with the hierarchy, because all LRT does is do what buses do except on rails, and at an exponentially higher cost. South Surrey may not ever warrant SkyTrain, but that doesn't mean it should aim for LRT. Again, huge amount of money for no benefits. Every LRT line that's built keeps overall improved bus service from happening.

[cganuelas1995]

Here's my idea for a route change of the 404 arrival/departure from Brighouse.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1OrEqCP_5ZVe5yrEYVgzTtIJZ9HQ&usp=sharing

[nname]

Originally Posted by dpogue

If they change the 169 to go along United Boulevard, then it's effectively the same as the old 177 route.

Still different... It would be the same as 158 and C35.

(177 stayed on Lougheed instead of going into Riverview) [EDIT: Forgot the 177 was modified to have the exact same routing as 158 and C35... I wonder if they will renumber the 169 to 177, or instead having the 4th number that serves essentially the same route]


Anyways, consultation should begin later today, along with new service to Silver Valley, Morgan Creek, and Clayton Heights

[EDIT: Consultation is up: http://www.translink.ca/networkreview]

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Rail transit has absolutely no inherent benefits, except as you mentioned, capacity. But Broadway has proved that buses can hold their own in capacity just fine.

I disagree with the hierarchy, because all LRT does is do what buses do except on rails, and at an exponentially higher cost. South Surrey may not ever warrant SkyTrain, but that doesn't mean it should aim for LRT. Again, huge amount of money for no benefits. Every LRT line that's built keeps overall improved bus service from happening.

Don't get me wrong I think building this LRT is idiotic when there are numerous routes that could use better service, I just wouldn't say the LRT is inferior to BRT when it's implemented well. While not necessarily applicable in our case, future extensions could be grade separated and run on ATC as well. Speaking of capacity that is no small benefit, because you incur alot of costs if you have to pay 2 or 3 bus drivers vs one train driver in the long run.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Don't get me wrong I think building this LRT is idiotic when there are numerous routes that could use better service, I just wouldn't say the LRT is inferior to BRT when it's implemented well. While not necessarily applicable in our case, future extensions could be grade separated and run on ATC as well. Speaking of capacity that is no small benefit, because you incur alot of costs if you have to pay 2 or 3 bus drivers vs one train driver in the long run.

You see paying less bus drivers, I see less frequency.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

You see paying less bus drivers, I see less frequency.

That's a good interpretation, though I'd compare it more to more capacity per driver. As the line inevitably increases in ridership, you'll probably see LRT trains coming quite frequently none the less.

I know in Toronto whenever people ask why the TTC doesn't uses buses on some of it's streetcar routes (some of which have similar ridership to the "L" line a few years after opening) it's simply because you'd have buses showing up every 50 or so seconds to carry the same numbers.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Don't get me wrong I think building this LRT is idiotic when there are numerous routes that could use better service, I just wouldn't say the LRT is inferior to BRT when it's implemented well.

But here's the thing: it's not about the technology (BRT vs. LRT). It's about the choice of route infrastructure (mixed traffic vs. private right of way at grade vs. complete grade separation). It doesn't really matter all that much what you run in any of those options, the effects of the option weigh far more heavily on the result than the technology choice. If you had an elevated road with dedicated lanes, you could run buses up there and they'd still be superior to any of the lesser infrastructure with LRT.

You pay for the better infrastructure, but you also reap the rewards and the result is far more future-proof.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

But here's the thing: it's not about the technology (BRT vs. LRT). It's about the choice of route infrastructure (mixed traffic vs. private right of way at grade vs. complete grade separation). It doesn't really matter all that much what you run in any of those options, the effects of the option weigh far more heavily on the result than the technology choice. If you had an elevated road with dedicated lanes, you could run buses up there and they'd still be superior to any of the lesser infrastructure with LRT.

You pay for the better infrastructure, but you also reap the rewards and the result is far more future-proof.

Indeed the ROW choice is the biggest factor no matter what.

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Indeed the ROW choice is the biggest factor no matter what.

All the more reason to rezone the entire Arbutus corridor to high density A.S.A.P.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by retro_orange

All the more reason to rezone the entire Arbutus corridor to high density A.S.A.P.

Everything I have seen in the past seems to suggest they would be putting streetcars or LRT here which IMO is a pretty bad idea unless they can create some very high capacity.