Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by wave46

The only fear I have is that the stadium won't lend itself to any major changes without severe structural work. The 2003 and 2015 renovations to Soldier Field in Chicago cost more than a billion dollars total. Sure, you're dealing with a US football stadium, so a premium cost is expected, but I can't imagine $300 million doing much for the Big O and I can't see much more funding being provided than that.

The Big O is a no-win situation unfortunately, and that's a shame.

Yeah that's fair. You're more talking a 400-500M reno than a 300M. As for structural work yes and no..You would need some piles or some kind of foundation laid down to support the new stands but either than that its really removing the old precast and extending the concourses. the "new stadium" would actually be the cheap part. probably less than 150M for a NMS,IGF type stadium. Think about it. No facade, utilities are already their no need to build a roof, No weather delays ect. It's really just structural steel, concrete, seats, suites and electronics. add another 100M for the roof and another 100M to update the existing structure...done

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Yeah that's fair. You're more talking a 400-500M reno than a 300M. As for structural work yes and no..You would need some piles or some kind of foundation laid down to support the new stands but either than that its really removing the old precast and extending the concourses. the "new stadium" would actually be the cheap part. probably less than 150M for a NMS,IGF type stadium. Think about it. No facade, utilities are already their no need to build a roof, No weather delays ect. It's really just structural steel, concrete, seats, suites and electronics. add another 100M for the roof and another 100M to update the existing structure...done

It's all so simple - yet no one is bringing up this sort of plan.

I think you're under-estimating the overall cost and over-estimating the usefulness of this approach. Probably be much cheaper to retire the stadium however they can and minimise the cost as much as possible and build a cheapo stadium similar to THF somewhere else - which would still have a better atmosphere than any Big O concoction you're thinking of.

No point in over-engineering. Most times the simplest approach is the best approach.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by Berklon

It's all so simple - yet no one is bringing up this sort of plan.

I think you're under-estimating the overall cost and over-estimating the usefulness of this approach. Probably be much cheaper to retire the stadium however they can and minimise the cost as much as possible and build a cheapo stadium similar to THF somewhere else - which would still have a better atmosphere than any Big O concoction you're thinking of.

No point in over-engineering. Most times the simplest approach is the best approach.

This is the last time I'm gonna say it.

The conversion is what to do with the BIG O. Not whats the solution for a new stadium for the Als.

I completely agree with you. It's a heap of shit. I don't like the stadium I never have. I don't even respect it's architecture I think it's ugly and I always will (my opinion). I'm not arguing that Montreal should save it.

I'm just saving they are going to save it. It's not going anywhere. So instead of slapping some new seats down and fixing the roof why not give it a bigger role in the community if at all possible?

yes I may be grossly underestimating the costs I dont know? I just dont feel like a modern facelift isn't what the big O needs nor is what Montreal needs from the big O

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

This is the last time I'm gonna say it.
I'm just saving they are going to save it. It's not going anywhere. So instead of slapping some new seats down and fixing the roof why not give it a bigger role in the community if at all possible?

yes I may be grossly underestimating the costs I dont know? I just dont feel like a modern facelift isn't what the big O needs nor is what Montreal needs from the big O

This is one of those horse before the cart or cart before the horse things. I'd like to see the Big O as a viable venue for Montreal as well, but lacking a credible impetus (the Olympics, return of the Expos) to redevelop it, the political support for such a venture is hard to drum up. I mean, we are talking about hundreds of millions of dollars here.

At least transit projects or hospitals or roads can be "sold" to a skeptical public as benefiting all, but an underutilized stadium, that's a hard one, especially one as notorious as the Big O.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by wave46

This is one of those horse before the cart or cart before the horse things. I'd like to see the Big O as a viable venue for Montreal as well, but lacking a credible impetus (the Olympics, return of the Expos) to redevelop it, the political support for such a venture is hard to drum up. I mean, we are talking about hundreds of millions of dollars here.

At least transit projects or hospitals or roads can be "sold" to a skeptical public as benefiting all, but an underutilized stadium, that's a hard one, especially one as notorious as the Big O.

But the money has already been commited. The city is going to fix up the BIG O. If the expos are comming back the ol girl can serve as a home untill a new stadium is built but then it's back to square one...even worse though because now you have a brand new 40,000 seat stadium to compete with. The Als are the only hope for big O serving as a sporting venue again. If not you might as well rip the seats out and let it serve as a giant convention centre. The city should be enticing the als to move back to the stadiumto justify the 100's of millions that will no doubt be invested

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

So...The updated concept is void because these were the originals? Be smart. Every Stadium project has had original concepts followed up by what is actually built including NMS,IGF,THF,TD place Even BC place had a scaled down reno concept (smaller scoreboard ect.) before the reno was done.

Nobody in their right mind actual believed that hideous field house was actually going to be built. They dressed it up like a high school stadium to try and get funding. And then they released the actual plans

Not saying the updated concept is completely void. But what you're trying to argue is that there is no credibility in the concept that I posted... even though they still use it as an example of what the stadium will look like for a CFL game. They didn't release a poor render to try and get funding, since that render ended up being one of the biggest reasons the public was against CalgaryNEXT.

I'm actually of the mind that the end result is going to look like a cross between the two. You aren't going to get a perfect stadium while trying to double as a fieldhouse and it isn't going to look like the 2nd/3rd concept they posted.

[FFX-ME]

This whole argument about the Olympic stadium is utterly ridiculous. It doesn't need to be torn down. Like someone said, it is profitable and the most recognizable landmark of Montreal, tearing it down makes no cultural or fiscal sense.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

This whole argument about the Olympic stadium is utterly ridiculous. It doesn't need to be torn down. Like someone said, it is profitable and the most recognizable landmark of Montreal, tearing it down makes no cultural or fiscal sense.

Profitable?!

[Acajack]

I have no idea if it's profitable but the stadium generates between 30 and 40 million dollars in revenue a year.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have no idea if it's profitable but the stadium generates between 30 and 40 million dollars in revenue a year.

There is no way that place has come close to paying off its capital costs.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

There is no way that place has come close to paying off its capital costs.

Obviously not. I am not even sure that 30-40 million per year offsets the annual operational costs. As I said, I have no idea.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Both of you just don't get it do you?

-The stadium isn't being demolished regardless of cost. Montrealers don't want it demolished it's wound up in the historical fabric of the city and believe it or not people actually like it.

-What makes you think the impact want nor need a new stadium? Especially when that means sharing it with grid iron football? Saputo may be bare bones but its a great MLS stadium really

-250-300M is being invested in the big O already. I don't have a timeline on that but it's already been stated by the city of Montreal that the stadium will receive the upgrades needed at a price tag of 250-300M

I wasn't arguing for demolishion.

[thurmas]

A Molson stadium massive reno would be far cheaper than rebuilding the Big O. You can tear down and rebuild a new north grandstand with seats that have backs and more club suites similar to Soldier Field, Ford Field and Levi Stadium in the NFL with all of the suites on one side of the stadium but scaled to suit a CFL team needs. Tear down and relocate the Tomlinson Field House to open up the seating area at the North endzone for temp seating for Grey Cups, Major concerts and a Heritage Classic. Install natural grass and it can host CFL and MLS and it has that great downtown location to attract as many fans as possible which Olympic Stadium doesn't offer.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by thurmas

A Molson stadium massive reno would be far cheaper than rebuilding the Big O. You can tear down and rebuild a new north grandstand with seats that have backs and more club suites similar to Soldier Field, Ford Field and Levi Stadium in the NFL with all of the suites on one side of the stadium but scaled to suit a CFL team needs. Tear down and relocate the Tomlinson Field House to open up the seating area at the North endzone for temp seating for Grey Cups, Major concerts and a Heritage Classic. Install natural grass and it can host CFL and MLS and it has that great downtown location to attract as many fans as possible which Olympic Stadium doesn't offer.

This I do agree with. Molson stadium is a great venue for the als but it needs an update bad. The one side is okay. but the big grandstand side needs to come down

[Marshal]

Originally Posted by esquire

There is no way that place has come close to paying off its capital costs.

Stadium revenue was never really part of the formula for paying off the capital costs. That burden fell on the City of Montreal, whose citizens paid out for decades. Regardless, and I don't recall when, the original capital costs were paid off some time ago.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Marshal

Stadium revenue was never really part of the formula for paying off the capital costs. That burden fell on the City of Montreal, whose citizens paid out for decades. Regardless, and I don't recall when, the original capital costs were paid off some time ago.

Yes, I didn't mean to suggest that the stadium itself wasn't paid for. It's just that it was paid for with taxes as opposed to operating profits.

My comment was in response to Acajack's remark about the stadium's profitability... it could only be regarded as a profitable enterprise if you overlook the massive taxpayer hit to get the complex built in the first place.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yes, I didn't mean to suggest that the stadium itself wasn't paid for. It's just that it was paid for with taxes as opposed to operating profits.

My comment was in response to Acajack's remark about the stadium's profitability... it could only be regarded as a profitable enterprise if you overlook the massive taxpayer hit to get the complex built in the first place.

Agreed, but I wasn't the one who initially said it was "profitable". Can't remember who it was though...

All I said was that it brought in "some" revenue.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Marshal

Stadium revenue was never really part of the formula for paying off the capital costs. That burden fell on the City of Montreal, whose citizens paid out for decades. Regardless, and I don't recall when, the original capital costs were paid off some time ago.

Paying for the capital costs of the Olympic facilities was mostly borne by taxpayers across Quebec.

More specifically, by smokers across Quebec, via a special tax on cigarettes. Oddly enough, it was brought up by a guy I was talking to last night in a bar. He mentioned that the cigarette tax was to pay for the Big O, but even though the Big O is paid off, the tax has remained.

I can't remember exactly but the Olympic debt was only paid off fairly recently. Maybe 10 years ago even.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Paying for the capital costs of the Olympic facilities was mostly borne by taxpayers across Quebec.

More specifically, by smokers across Quebec, via a special tax on cigarettes. Oddly enough, it was brought up by a guy I was talking to last night in a bar. He mentioned that the cigarette tax was to pay for the Big O, but even though the Big O is paid off, the tax has remained.

I can't remember exactly but the Olympic debt was only paid off fairly recently. Maybe 10 years ago even.

As per November 2006, per the CBC.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

But the money has already been commited. The city is going to fix up the BIG O. If the expos are comming back the ol girl can serve as a home untill a new stadium is built but then it's back to square one...even worse though because now you have a brand new 40,000 seat stadium to compete with. The Als are the only hope for big O serving as a sporting venue again. If not you might as well rip the seats out and let it serve as a giant convention centre. The city should be enticing the als to move back to the stadiumto justify the 100's of millions that will no doubt be invested

The money has been committed? I can't seem to find that information - the only thing I could find was that the stadium needs about $220-300 million worth of work, as per the Olympic Installations Board. As of right now, all it seems is that they're patching the roof and maintaining the existing facility.