Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[Oilkountry]

Here's my take on CalgaryNEXT...Throw it in the trash ,Adopt my plan called CalgaryRIGHTNOW

Basically consists of copying Edmonton but instead of the 1.2B-1.4B price tag it drops down to 550-600M And everyone gets what they want.

Arena- Scrap the west village idea and move to east Village. It's still downtown without the 300M baggage. If Rogers Place is a Rolce Royce than Console Energy Center is a fully loaded BMW and it's good enough for Calgary, plop down a 400M arena right by fort Calgary or just south of it (LRT just happens to be right there) Done deal!

Field house/Stadium- As I was saying a few pages back McMahon is definitely outdated but can be brought up to todays standards no problem but it needs a few things.New Seats,proper concourses (consessions/bathrooms), player facilities and an updated façade wouldn't hurt either. Why not pull a page right out of Edmonton's book and the city build the field house at the end zone of McMahon just like they did at commonwealth? It doubles as a training facility for the stamps. You can build your locker rooms and meeting rooms/medical rooms ect right out of that building, You can add restaurants/club that looks over the field. Maybe a level of luxury boxes? Continuous concourse around the entire stadium that way people could warm up and grab a coffee at half time. Close in the other endzone with a few levels of loge seats like they designed new Regina stadium. This would bring your renovation cost to the stadium itself down to 40-50M or so and it would have all the bells and whistles of a new stadium. Think of it as lambeu feild, meets commonwealth, meets new mosaic all boiled into 1. I know McMahon seems like a dump but Almost every college stadium in the US at one point or another looked something like it, and some of those stadiums wipe the floor with some NFL stadiums. I think this is a good opportunity for the flames group to look at this an a plan B.

Downtown Arena 400M (city donates the land?)

stadium/field house 155M (city pays 110ish?)

Flames pay around the same that they are proposing with CNext and the city saves like over half a billion or more and still gets the field house. Clean up that land with all 3 levels of government when it becomes absolutely necessary

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Libraries serve a greater purpose than sports entertainment which if anything is adverse to health as many of the attendees sit around for 3 hours and consume unhealthy amounts of booze and low quality, fried foods. Libraries enrich the minds and may keep bored youth out of trouble...not only with books but with the various programs they offer..all for free.

Good and bad points. Libraries are losing importance vastly as the internet continues to take over. And they aren't keeping kids out of trouble, let's be honest aside from mandatory school visits, not to many teens are spending free time at a library in 2016. Even if that's what they were intended for. To say that pro sports is bad for society in comparison to a library is really closed minded. Minor hockey is fuelled by dreams of kids being NHLers. Would that dream exist in Canada as prominently as it does if NHL teams weren't here? absolutely not. Just ask Winnipeg, which plays a bigger role in the community a library or the MTS centre? Soccer in Canada is on the rise directly attributed to the arrival of pro teams. Sports franchises also help give cities an identity and something to rally behind. They employ 100`s of locals and benefit business and charities all over the community. I live in a small town of 18,000 people and when we built a new 1800 seat arena it completely transformed the entertainment options in the city which goes to show how arenas can help with quality of life. So yes I completely get it, a library and an arena serve the public in 2 different ways. But to say 1 is less important because it is part of a bigger picture is ridiculous. If the oilers left town today, Rogers place still would do great things for Edmonton and in my opinion has been worth every penny of public dollars.

It's not gonna happen in our lifetime but let's just imagine the flames did leave Calgary because of nenshi's (borderline annoying) stance on public dollars mixing with private business. You think he would look like a hero? His house would be burnt to the ground! And if he ever stepped foot in Calgary again he wouldn't last the day. If the flames can't be sustainable in the dome and can't build an arena on there own than I'm sorry but Nenshi has no choice but to partner up on this. I respect him for trying to be responsible with tax dollars I do. But if you want to be a "big league" city you have to invest in that image.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

I love what youre doing here but you should have used some updated pic of the MTS centre it looks so much better now than it did last season

Speaking of MTS just about a year ago today TNSE announced the off season renovations. I wonder if we should be expecting anything soon?

Yes, good job with the Winnipeg venue tour, brizzy!

MTS Centre definitely looks better this season with the brighter and more plentiful signage, as well as the new loges.

[TimB09]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

Nenshi laying the smackdown on Bettman

Bettman's doing what his bosses, the owners of NHL teams, are wanting him to do. That's his main focus. He's stating what he sees should be done. Can't fault him for that.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by TimB09

Bettman's doing what his bosses, the owners of NHL teams, are wanting him to do. That's his main focus. He's stating what he sees should be done. Can't fault him for that.

In Canada, the only city that has ever been pushed around the way that American cities typically are when it comes to replacement rinks is Edmonton. New venues in Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal, Winnipeg and Vancouver were all either exclusively or mostly privately funded.

I guess Bettman wants to get more Canadian cities to start acting the way that American ones do. But I'm not sure that you can really play that game with a city where hockey is obviously very profitable like in Calgary. Calgary also has a swagger that won't let them be cowed the way that smaller cities might... I mean, if Bettman made those comments to Winnipeg you can bet we'd be frantically trying to come up with ways to appease him. Calgary's profile doesn't depend on the NHL though, that's why Nenshi basically told him to eff off.

I mean, if the Saddledome is inadequate then there are plenty of awesome arenas out there. Let CSEG find someone with cash who wants to move the team to Tulsa, Kansas City or Quebec. All three have spectacular rinks. (Hint: Not gonna happen)

[Riise]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Good and bad points.

A few things:

• Libraries are no longer just a place to find publications, they have evolved.
• I don't think the poster you quoted was saying professional sports were bad but was rather comparing the health benefits of attending a live sporting event versus going to the library.
• If NHL teams didn't exist, other form of entertainment and community building would fill the voids but in a more dispersed fashion.
• The MLS has fed off of a renaissance for the sport and the league's impact is very localized.
• Would Calgarians burn down the house of the mayor who shares the opinion of most Calgarians or the houses of the owners who sold the franchise after trying to bend the City over a barrel?

[Jay in Cowtown]

Love him or hate him... Bettman is 100% right! The Saddledome needs to be replaced and the ball needs to get rolling fast.

Oilkountry is right as well, CalgaryNext needs to be scrapped and replaced with a "Consul Energy-esk" building on the east side. As far as McMahon goes, it's the dog's ass, but it's better than an indoor fieldhouse that may transform into a stadium. Once the arena is built... concentrate on a stadium. The Stamps season ticket holders don't seem to give a shit either way, and the few thousand of "me" that might show up to a CFL game that otherwise wouldn't be there in a new stadium wouldn't compensate for the cost of it anyway. It's the CFL afterall... let's get real!

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

If the flames can't be sustainable in the dome and can't build an arena on there own than I'm sorry but Nenshi has no choice but to partner up on this. I respect him for trying to be responsible with tax dollars I do. But if you want to be a "big league" city you have to invest in that image.

But the Flames can build an arena on their own. That's the issue with all of this. If the owners went to the city tomorrow and said they'll build a privately-funded arena at West Village if you are willing to donate the land, I have no doubt the city would be all over it. Money is not an issue for the Flames or their ownership group, at all.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown

Love him or hate him... Bettman is 100% right! The Saddledome needs to be replaced and the ball needs to get rolling fast.

Oilkountry is right as well, CalgaryNext needs to be scrapped and replaced with a "Consul Energy-esk" building on the east side. As far as McMahon goes, it's the dog's ass, but it's better than an indoor fieldhouse that may transform into a stadium. Once the arena is built... concentrate on a stadium. The Stamps season ticket holders don't seem to give a shit either way, and the few thousand of "me" that might show up to a CFL game that otherwise wouldn't be there in a new stadium wouldn't compensate for the cost of it anyway. It's the CFL afterall... let's get real!

By your logic, why should a replacement be built for the Saddledome? After all, Flames season ticket holders don't seem to mind it!

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by esquire

By your logic, why should a replacement be built for the Saddledome? After all, Flames season ticket holders don't seem to mind it!

Not all of us. I split season tickets with a friend and I think it needs replacing. A lot of people in our section agree as well.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

Not all of us. I split season tickets with a friend and I think it needs replacing. A lot of people in our section agree as well.

Why would the Flames care given that you keep buying tickets? Teams get worried when people start staying away because they hate the venue.

This is why the most profitable Canadian teams generally don't get support from government for new venues. Everyone knows that the Leafs are obscenely profitable and still would be even if they played in an aircraft hangar with temporary seating. So naturally governments in Ontario did not feel particularly compelled to kick in money when MLSE was building the ACC.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

Not all of us. I split season tickets with a friend and I think it needs replacing. A lot of people in our section agree as well.

Yea, as was already stated - you keep buying those tickets and the Flames keep selling out... there's no huge need for a new arena since the old one is good enough for fans.

The lack of a new arena is only problematic for those who would've shared in the extra revenue it would generate from more corporate boxes, arena restaurants, etc. - and that's not the taxpayer. The only thing taxpayers would get out of it is the ability to sit in a new/pretty arena to watch hokey and paying more for the privilege.

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by esquire

Why would the Flames care given that you keep buying tickets? Teams get worried when people start staying away because they hate the venue.

This is why the most profitable Canadian teams generally don't get support from government for new venues. Everyone knows that the Leafs are obscenely profitable and still would be even if they played in an aircraft hangar with temporary seating. So naturally governments in Ontario did not feel particularly compelled to kick in money when MLSE was building the ACC.

If we went by that way of thinking the Leafs would still be playing in Maple Leaf Garden ;-)

The fact is, the Flames need a new building to keep up with the league and I think a lot of season ticket holders agree with that.

So while the IDEA is sound, their actual proposal sucks, so now we have to go around and around in circles until it dies a slow agonizing death and a new concept is proposed.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

The fact is, the Flames need a new building to keep up with the league and I think a lot of season ticket holders agree with that.

Really? Are their profits drastically lower than those of franchises with new arenas? Would it be more profitable to move the franchise to another city with a new arena?

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by Riise

Really? Are their profits drastically lower than those of franchises with new arenas? Would it be more profitable to move the franchise to another city with a new arena?

I have no clue what their profits are but that doesn't matter. The Flames have said they need a new building and nothing's going to change their minds. Whether you and I agree with them is irrelevant. Either way, I wouldn't get too excited - this thing's going to drag on forever anyway.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

I have no clue what their profits are but that doesn't matter.

As they would like assistance from the City and Province to which I pay taxes, it most definitely matters. If this was a 100% private investment, their profits could be kept private but they are not going down that path.

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by Riise

As they would like assistance from the City and Province to which I pay taxes, it most definitely matters. If this was a 100% private investment, their profits could be kept private but they are not going down that path.

Sorry I should have been clearer. I meant it doesn't matter that I personally don't know what their profits are. Can't imagine they're huge these days though, given our lousy dollar.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

If we went by that way of thinking the Leafs would still be playing in Maple Leaf Garden ;-)

Uhhh, the Leafs played in MLG for 70 years. They used up the entire life expectancy of that place and then some. I remember going in there back in the 90s for Leafs and Majors games and the place was completely devoid of modern creature comforts. Hell, it was outdated when the Leafs were defending Stanley Cup champions.

Bottom line, they didn't build ACC to appease fans sitting in the stands, they did it to take advantage of new revenue-generating features which they couldn't cram into MLG and allowed them to tap into corporate dollars.

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by esquire

Uhhh, the Leafs played in MLG for 70 years. They used up the entire life expectancy of that place and then some. I remember going in there back in the 90s for Leafs and Majors games and the place was completely devoid of modern creature comforts. Hell, it was outdated when the Leafs were defending Stanley Cup champions.

Bottom line, they didn't build ACC to appease fans sitting in the stands, they did it to take advantage of new revenue-generating features which they couldn't cram into MLG and allowed them to tap into corporate dollars.

I guess the sarcasm didn't come through. The Flames feel they need more revenue from more lower bowl seating and more luxury boxes, like Edmonton's new rink which is why this is being proposed. We can debate whether its valid or not until we're blue in the face but that's their thinking.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

I guess the sarcasm didn't come through. The Flames feel they need more revenue from more lower bowl seating and more luxury boxes, like Edmonton's new rink which is why this is being proposed. We can debate whether its valid or not until we're blue in the face but that's their thinking.

But the fact that the Flames are a profitable enterprise in one of the world's most lucrative hockey markets should have some bearing on this. The reality is that if the Flames go virtually anywhere from Calgary, it will be a major downgrade. They aren't leaving. They're bluffing. Nenshi understands this, hence his response. He knows that if push comes to shove, CSEG will simply built an arena with its own money. And if CSEG actually pulls up stakes and goes to some US town where they give the arena away for free, some existing NHL team will move to Calgary in a heartbeat anyway. A team in a 35 year old Saddledome is a surer bet than a NHL team in Gila River Arena or whatever the hell they call the rinks these days in Sunrise or Raleigh .