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  #6521  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 2:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
I believe they have given up trying to remove the 6"-8" of ice that covers most sidewalks. The storm 2 weeks ago that had snow followed by rain followed by -10 degree temps meant that unless the walkways were cleared during or immediately following the rain, it became a solid block of ice. I know I spread 30kg of salt on my sidewalk of about 60' in length Saturday, and it did nothing at all to the ice. It is going to be there until spring since it is too thick to even chop, unless you have some sort of power tool.
I haven't been back this winter, but this year has been highly unusual. There was a CBC story about how it was the coldest on record in Montreal and I think it might be the coldest month recorded in Halifax too: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/montreal-records-coldest-february-in-history-1.2977083

YHZ's temperatures this month were about on par with what can normally be expected in Edmundston.

Believe it or not, the average February day in Halifax gets up to +0.4 C and there are normally only 2.4 days with 5 cm or more of snow. I bet the city blew way past that this year: http://climate.weather.gc.ca/climate_nor...&stnNameSubmit=go&dCode=4&dispBack=1
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  #6522  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 2:40 AM
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3 inches of ice is manageable. Double that is a different story.
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  #6523  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 3:15 AM
hokus83 hokus83 is offline
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post

Believe it or not, the average February day in Halifax gets up to +0.4 C and there are normally only 2.4 days with 5 cm or more of snow. I bet the city blew way past that this year: http://climate.weather.gc.ca/climate_nor...&stnNameSubmit=go&dCode=4&dispBack=1
We went full through November, December, January without any snow and above freezing temperatures. With only 4 full weeks of winter in the shortage month of the year the way this city handled winter clearing as been absurd. I bet we only had a total of 60 cm all winter so far, there sure isn't much snow out there just a mess of management with 4 lane roads cut down to 2.5 lanes and messy sidewalks, our spineless councillors can't even face up to there being a problem
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  #6524  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 3:56 AM
counterfactual counterfactual is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
I believe they have given up trying to remove the 6"-8" of ice that covers most sidewalks. The storm 2 weeks ago that had snow followed by rain followed by -10 degree temps meant that unless the walkways were cleared during or immediately following the rain, it became a solid block of ice. I know I spread 30kg of salt on my sidewalk of about 60' in length Saturday, and it did nothing at all to the ice. It is going to be there until spring since it is too thick to even chop, unless you have some sort of power tool.
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I haven't been back this winter, but this year has been highly unusual. There was a CBC story about how it was the coldest on record in Montreal and I think it might be the coldest month recorded in Halifax too: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/montreal-records-coldest-february-in-history-1.2977083

YHZ's temperatures this month were about on par with what can normally be expected in Edmundston.

Believe it or not, the average February day in Halifax gets up to +0.4 C and there are normally only 2.4 days with 5 cm or more of snow. I bet the city blew way past that this year: http://climate.weather.gc.ca/climate_nor...&stnNameSubmit=go&dCode=4&dispBack=1
To me, the temperature is just a complete red herring. And it's an excuse that's used every year. It seems last year was a record. Now, it is again! 0

Why is it a red herring? Because despite the temperatures, record or not, the ice has, in fact, been cleared in places where proper steps have been taken-- mainly, salt laid on sidewalks regularly until the ice is gone.

On the peninsula, a vast majority of sidewalks are icy death paths. However, even on the icy death paths, there are patches where the sidewalk is mostly clear. They are usually found around public institutions like hospitals and main avenues on university campuses, who have staff to buy and lay down salt on the sidewalks daily. It's also this case around certain businesses on core streets like Spring Garden, for example.

In those patches, the sidewalks are clear. But then you continue past the hospital or university or business and the sidewalk is an icy death path again, with pathetic little granules of gravel laid, that do absolutely nothing.

The roads are clear. And in patches, the sidewalks are clear. The rest is ice. The difference, is that salt is being laid on the former, and not the latter.

Why? It's a cheapo budget thing. The private contractors are not spending the money to lay salt on sidewalks. And Butts and the City Government aren't forcing them to do so. They need to take responsibility. They started charging more premiums in 2013, and have delivered pathetic sidewalk clearance.
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  #6525  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 4:16 AM
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This is something that comes up from time to time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowmelt_system

It seems like it would be worth installing along sidewalks on Spring Garden Road, Barrington Street, etc. When there is a storm you heat up the sidewalks enough that snow and freezing rain do not stick. The amount of energy required would not be enormous (often it's right around 0 when the storms are happening).

Wikipedia shows the system being installed along an entire pedestrianized street in Reykjavik, metro population ~200,000.
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  #6526  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 9:15 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
This is something that comes up from time to time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowmelt_system

It seems like it would be worth installing along sidewalks on Spring Garden Road, Barrington Street, etc. When there is a storm you heat up the sidewalks enough that snow and freezing rain do not stick. The amount of energy required would not be enormous (often it's right around 0 when the storms are happening).

Wikipedia shows the system being installed along an entire pedestrianized street in Reykjavik, metro population ~200,000.
That's pretty cool, I remember it being posted here before, in fact maybe it had been done here in front of the old Light and Power building, can't remember for sure.

One question I have on these systems is what happens to the runoff of melted water, since it will refreeze as soon as it flows off of the heating coils. Looking at what happens to salted areas of icy roads and sidewalks around here, it appears that the ice around the sidewalk would create an enclosure that would result in a pool of water to walk through, unless there was some provision for drainage.
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  #6527  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 9:34 PM
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
That's pretty cool, I remember it being posted here before, in fact maybe it had been done here in front of the old Light and Power building, can't remember for sure.

One question I have on these systems is what happens to the runoff of melted water, since it will refreeze as soon as it flows off of the heating coils. Looking at what happens to salted areas of icy roads and sidewalks around here, it appears that the ice around the sidewalk would create an enclosure that would result in a pool of water to walk through, unless there was some provision for drainage.
It was actually in front of the old MT&T building on Barrington at the foot of SGR, the predecessor to Maritime Center.

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  #6528  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 9:35 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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To me, the temperature is just a complete red herring. And it's an excuse that's used every year. It seems last year was a record. Now, it is again! 0

Why is it a red herring? Because despite the temperatures, record or not, the ice has, in fact, been cleared in places where proper steps have been taken-- mainly, salt laid on sidewalks regularly until the ice is gone.

On the peninsula, a vast majority of sidewalks are icy death paths. However, even on the icy death paths, there are patches where the sidewalk is mostly clear. They are usually found around public institutions like hospitals and main avenues on university campuses, who have staff to buy and lay down salt on the sidewalks daily. It's also this case around certain businesses on core streets like Spring Garden, for example.

In those patches, the sidewalks are clear. But then you continue past the hospital or university or business and the sidewalk is an icy death path again, with pathetic little granules of gravel laid, that do absolutely nothing.

The roads are clear. And in patches, the sidewalks are clear. The rest is ice. The difference, is that salt is being laid on the former, and not the latter.

Why? It's a cheapo budget thing. The private contractors are not spending the money to lay salt on sidewalks. And Butts and the City Government aren't forcing them to do so. They need to take responsibility. They started charging more premiums in 2013, and have delivered pathetic sidewalk clearance.
I agree that they sure could do better than they are doing.

I am curious as to why more business owners aren't taking it upon themselves to clear the sidewalks in front of their business. It only makes sense that they should do this to make it easier for their customers to get into their business. That doesn't give the city an out, IMHO, but if everybody did their little bit, there would be a lot less for the city to deal with.

Regarding using salt to melt 15 cm of ice, from personal experience I have found you have to dump an obscene amount of salt on it to penetrate to the concrete, otherwise you just melt little holes in the top layer that melts until the salt is gone, and then tends to refreeze over time once the salt water becomes diluted enough with melted ice.

The crushed stone is put on top of the ice to create friction on the surface so your boots won't slip when you walk on it. That said, once the sun heats up the little pieces of stone they tend to melt their way down into the ice and refreeze below the surface at night.

The only solution at this point is to manually break up the ice and remove it, or use obscene amounts of salt or other de-icer to weaken the ice, and then remove it. IMHO, there aren't a lot of good choices in machinery around here to break up the ice without damaging the sidewalk below, and I'm not sure if there are environmental limits to how much salt can be applied at one time.

I think the real cause of the problem is the combination of an unusual series of storms (snow-rain-snow-freeze), and the resultant ice not being dealt with properly after each storm. The sidewalks were either not cleared or only cleared in a half-assed way after each storm and the ice was allowed to build up over time. Finally, it's at the point where just about the only thing to be done is take a pick-axe to it or wait for the spring thaw.

I'm kinda surprised that we as a city aren't better at dealing with this type of weather, since we've only had snowy, icy winter conditions forever. Yeesh.
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  #6529  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 9:36 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
It was actually in front of the old MT&T building on Barrington at the foot of SGR, the predecessor to Maritime Center.

Aha! That's it. Thanks Keith!
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  #6530  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 2:30 AM
counterfactual counterfactual is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
I agree that they sure could do better than they are doing.

I am curious as to why more business owners aren't taking it upon themselves to clear the sidewalks in front of their business. It only makes sense that they should do this to make it easier for their customers to get into their business. That doesn't give the city an out, IMHO, but if everybody did their little bit, there would be a lot less for the city to deal with.

Regarding using salt to melt 15 cm of ice, from personal experience I have found you have to dump an obscene amount of salt on it to penetrate to the concrete, otherwise you just melt little holes in the top layer that melts until the salt is gone, and then tends to refreeze over time once the salt water becomes diluted enough with melted ice.

The crushed stone is put on top of the ice to create friction on the surface so your boots won't slip when you walk on it. That said, once the sun heats up the little pieces of stone they tend to melt their way down into the ice and refreeze below the surface at night.

The only solution at this point is to manually break up the ice and remove it, or use obscene amounts of salt or other de-icer to weaken the ice, and then remove it. IMHO, there aren't a lot of good choices in machinery around here to break up the ice without damaging the sidewalk below, and I'm not sure if there are environmental limits to how much salt can be applied at one time.

I think the real cause of the problem is the combination of an unusual series of storms (snow-rain-snow-freeze), and the resultant ice not being dealt with properly after each storm. The sidewalks were either not cleared or only cleared in a half-assed way after each storm and the ice was allowed to build up over time. Finally, it's at the point where just about the only thing to be done is take a pick-axe to it or wait for the spring thaw.

I'm kinda surprised that we as a city aren't better at dealing with this type of weather, since we've only had snowy, icy winter conditions forever. Yeesh.
Hey Mark, thanks for the thoughtful reply, as usual.

I actually think most businesses have been pretty good. When I'm walking around, it seems the areas where there are businesses, they've made an effort to lay salt around their shops, so it's not bad. Not always perfectly clear, but you're not tiptoeing or walking slowly because you're on top of solid ice. It's when you get away from any businesses (which, on the peninsula, are clustered mostly around SGR/Barrington St) it's all ice. Even down off Barrington, and just off Spring Garden, on streets that connect directly, it's icy.

And I don't think they should be required to lay salt for whole lengths of sidewalks along streets leading to their business. The city should be doing that.

The stone/gravel operates exactly as you've described. It provides a grip for the day, but then melts underneath ice and becomes useless.

I think the reality, is that the sidewalk machines that are laying the useless stone/gravel every other day, have to be laying salt every day. And actually, once you do it for a few days straight, the salt kills the ice, and it doesn't return until you get another major storm/water front. Most roads have been clear for days (until today's storms), so no salt would have to be laid. Meanwhile, sidewalks were still ice. I feel like laying a bunch of salt to melt 5 inches of ice so people can walk is just as important as laying salt on roads to melt 1 inch of snow. It seems the former isn't important to the city, but the latter is. And that is indefensible.
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  #6531  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 5:33 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Originally Posted by counterfactual View Post
Hey Mark, thanks for the thoughtful reply, as usual.

I actually think most businesses have been pretty good. When I'm walking around, it seems the areas where there are businesses, they've made an effort to lay salt around their shops, so it's not bad. Not always perfectly clear, but you're not tiptoeing or walking slowly because you're on top of solid ice. It's when you get away from any businesses (which, on the peninsula, are clustered mostly around SGR/Barrington St) it's all ice. Even down off Barrington, and just off Spring Garden, on streets that connect directly, it's icy.

And I don't think they should be required to lay salt for whole lengths of sidewalks along streets leading to their business. The city should be doing that.

The stone/gravel operates exactly as you've described. It provides a grip for the day, but then melts underneath ice and becomes useless.

I think the reality, is that the sidewalk machines that are laying the useless stone/gravel every other day, have to be laying salt every day. And actually, once you do it for a few days straight, the salt kills the ice, and it doesn't return until you get another major storm/water front. Most roads have been clear for days (until today's storms), so no salt would have to be laid. Meanwhile, sidewalks were still ice. I feel like laying a bunch of salt to melt 5 inches of ice so people can walk is just as important as laying salt on roads to melt 1 inch of snow. It seems the former isn't important to the city, but the latter is. And that is indefensible.
I think you're right. If they continued spreading salt daily, eventually it would have the desirable effect, and in the meantime the surface would be "roughed up" by the salt eating its way down.

One thing I get tired of hearing EACH AND EVERY winter is that Halifax has used up its snow clearing budget. I mean cripes! Winter has not changed here in the past thousand years or so, at least. It varies from year to year but we always get snow and ice because we're on the coast and we always get nor'easters, etc. So how can they continue to use the 'budget' excuse as a reason that snow and ice clearing has been inadequate??

I mean, yes this February has been brutal, but they should have had to spend virtually nada for November through January, since we got very little frozen precipitation during those months. Now, 1 month of bad weather kills their budget?? I know they did increase the budget recently, but not enough, apparently.

Time to fix this issue once and for all and make way for pedestrians to be able to use the sidewalks again.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/1272245-halifax-snow-clearing-costs-keep-piling-up
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  #6532  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 5:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
It was actually in front of the old MT&T building on Barrington at the foot of SGR, the predecessor to Maritime Center.

Post # 2 refers to it being the NSL&P building, which was also the Capitol Theatre building; post #2 has a picture of snow melted on the sidewalks: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=209075
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  #6533  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 8:03 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Post # 2 refers to it being the NSL&P building, which was also the Capitol Theatre building; post #2 has a picture of snow melted on the sidewalks: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=209075
Excellent detective work!

Makes more sense that it would be an NSL&P project, as they would tend to benefit the most from the city using electricity to heat the sidewalks.
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  #6534  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 11:54 PM
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I think what is driving the rash of complaints about municipal snow clearing is the difference between publicly and privately owned areas. I snapped this photo today highlighting this;


Halifax Developments Blog (Photo by David Jackson)


This is in Dartmouth Crossing. In the foreground the privately owned sidewalk is down to bare concrete with some extra salt and gravel laid for any future storms while in the background the City of Halifax has barely plowed the sidewalk since the first storm some four weeks ago. The snowbanks actually force people to walk onto the street just to go back onto a few inches of ice and climb over more snow to hit the pedestrian signal button. Where I live there is a busy sidewalk on a hill which I sent a complaint to Halifax about not being gravelled and unfortunately they still haven't fixed this issue despite it being in the urban centre, on a slope leading down to a busy road, and on a school walking route.
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  #6535  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2015, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by JET View Post
Post # 2 refers to it being the NSL&P building, which was also the Capitol Theatre building; post #2 has a picture of snow melted on the sidewalks: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=209075
This would put the lie to that misinformation:



(Lifetime record: 759 correct, 0 incorrect; Pct.: 1.000)
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  #6536  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2015, 1:24 AM
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Wikipedia shows the system being installed along an entire pedestrianized street in Reykjavik, metro population ~200,000.
Reykjavik has vast amounts of geothermal energy available. Electricity and city supplied domestic hot water are virtually free. The only large costs are infrastructure for distribution.

Halifax, fortunately or unfortunately, does not lie on an active divergent tectonic fault line to supply said geothermal energy.
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  #6537  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2015, 2:28 AM
Phalanx Phalanx is offline
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Reykjavik has vast amounts of geothermal energy available. Electricity and city supplied domestic hot water are virtually free. The only large costs are infrastructure for distribution.

Halifax, fortunately or unfortunately, does not lie on an active divergent tectonic fault line to supply said geothermal energy.
All very true, but it's also possible to be inventive about it, and take some small advantage from a downtown planning blunder.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2012/12/121211-sewage-heat-recovery/

I don't know that it would work with the downtown treatment plant, and I don't know that they don't already have some type of system in place, and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be enough to cover the downtown... but... just trying to think outside the box.
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  #6538  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2015, 2:38 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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This would put the lie to that misinformation:



(Lifetime record: 759 correct, 0 incorrect; Pct.: 1.000)

Very impressive. I can't remember you ever making a factual mistake on this skyscraperpage forum (no sarcasm intended). However, some might not agree with all of your viewpoints.
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  #6539  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2015, 5:45 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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This would put the lie to that misinformation:



(Lifetime record: 759 correct, 0 incorrect; Pct.: 1.000)
Awesome has happened!
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  #6540  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2015, 4:17 PM
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There have been times when he was incorrect (location of a Hollis St. bar, for one);
but he was right about Ikea.
There is something odd about the Herald photos. Where exactly was the Capitol theatre?
this photo shows the Majestic/Capitol theatre two buildings South of Salter/Barrington. http://shop.thechronicleherald.ca/Vintag...ic-Barrington-Street-Halifax_p_3968.html
This photo shows it from the South:http://shop.thechronicleherald.ca/Vintag...eatre-Halifax-Herald-Halifax_p_3961.html
Keith's photo show's the ultra modern MT&T building with the Capitol theatre in the background, and what seems to be an intersection between them. When was that MT&T building built; and why, if the Maritime building was soon to be built. Perhaps more sleuthing is required.
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