Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[jedikermit]

Originally Posted by N2I.F.

That's funny, jedikermit! Aa long as passengers and employees have clothes on

You ruin all my plans.

[Hatman]

Thought you fellows may get a kick out of this.
Randal O'Toole is a notorious anti-rail critic, and now he has taken to attacking TRAX:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/58032605-90/bus-buses-carry-lake.html.csp

Expert says buses better, cheaper than TRAX

A national research group is pointing to the Utah Transit Authority’s TRAX lines as an example of big spending for mediocre results and argues investing in better bus systems would have been cheaper and more effective.

"Building new rail transit lines, at least in the Americas, is almost always a mistake," writes Randal O’Toole, a senior fellow for the CATO Institute, which promotes libertarian ideals of limited government and free markets.

"Providing the same transit capacity with buses instead of trains would cost far less," he says in a policy analysis released this week. TRAX is among several projects nationally that it criticizes.

The UTA disagrees with his assessment.

UTA spokesman Remi Barron said light-rail transit "has proven to be a successful investment, both in Utah and across the country." He said a proper mix of light rail with buses and commuter rail "creates an effective multi-modal transit system, like the one we have here on the Wasatch Front."

But O’Toole included TRAX in a list of light-rail projects that he said are "particularly unproductive."

...

And blah blah blah blah blah on and on and on. I could make arguments here about TRAX costing more to construct but being cheaper to operate and how it attracts a wider variety of riders than buses do and on and on and on, but I suspect I'm preaching to the choir here.

[i-215]

Even me. I'm about as pro-freeway as they come, and even I support TRAX. I'll never ride a bus, but I "frequently" (several times a year) use TRAX or Frontrunner. A fixed guide-way lets a train exit the traffic, allowing service to continue at full-speed, regardless of what's going on on the roads. A bus is stuck in the same traffic as my car, except it drives slower. And stops all the time.

[AllOutOfBubbleGum]

Originally Posted by i-215

Even me. I'm about as pro-freeway as they come, and even I support TRAX. I'll never ride a bus, but I "frequently" (several times a year) use TRAX or Frontrunner. A fixed guide-way lets a train exit the traffic, allowing service to continue at full-speed, regardless of what's going on on the roads. A bus is stuck in the same traffic as my car, except it drives slower. And stops all the time.

I once took the bus from Provo Mall to Salt Lake ... waited ... From Salt Lake to Lagoon ... waited ... From Lagoon to Ogden ... waited ... from Ogden to Brigham City which was the end of the line because UTA does not service the Cache Valley. waited in Brigham at the Smiths till I could get a ride home. Started the bus trip at 2 pm and got home at 11:45pm. Never rode an American bus again.

But I do like us to build roads and rail right now. I think it benefits more people. We have too many cars to not build roads and we have too many people not to build rail. But rail is about 3 times more expensive or 2x can't remember from the article I read.

[s.p.hansen]

I see opinion pieces like this and I just laugh. It reminds me of how Tom Clancy had to still write books about the Soviet Union after its collapse (a lack of versatility). By all means it's too late to harp on Utah. We got Utah county to buy into FrontRunner and greater SL County into TRAX feeding into downtown.

When you think about the next step forward, it's never gonna be another Frontlines 2015; all the improvements whether streetcar, brt, or light rail are going to have to be pushed for at a more local level. Salt Lake City has the will to expand both light rail and streetcars and will find ways through federal and city funds to do so. Places in Utah, Salt Lake, Davis, and Weber Counties are going to be able to choose to do the same.

But the fact remains, the skeleton is already in place. If people in Utah County want to make good on expanding their already locked in financial commitment to FrontRunner, they are going to have to decide as a community what to do and it won't be in some argument framed as liberals in Salt Lake City vs Utah County. People are going to have to weigh what is best for their community and I think at the end of the day you'll see the entire metro decide to invest in expanding upon their existing transit investments.

Now, having said all that, let's keep in mind that FrontLines added to the sales tax a bit to create a bond, the system was built faster and under budget. At some point that bond will be payed off and that would open the door to the whole region coming together again on whether to renew that bond or not... So in a couple decades we may see an opening for another massive expansion spanning counties.

[CountyLemonade]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

I see opinion pieces like this and I just laugh.

That's not an opinion piece. That is the Trib framing the Cato Institute's ungodly opinions as "expert."

[Comrade]

The Cato Institute is nearly as bad as the Sutherland Institute.

[brankrom]

The trib changed the headline from "expert" to "researcher".

[Future Mayor]

I almost scrolled down to read the comments, but I decided I didn't want to be in an horrible mood for the rest of my Friday, that is also why I didn't even read the entire article.

The CATO institute is just ridiculous. They simply ignore the continued research that shows that rail attracts a more broad demographic of riders and promotes more redevelopment along it's lines than buses do, because people always know where the trains run, and they don't have to search for the new route changes that often times come with a bus, and as 215 mentioned, it's more reliable on times, due to the fact that it's not stuck in the same traffic as all the cars. These are the exact same reason why true BRT is more successful than a regular buses

[Schmoe]

I love public transit and this nation needs more of it, but I think studies like this come too early. As more transit-oriented development takes place, ridership and efficiency will improve.

[CountyLemonade]

O'Toole's assertions of buses being able to carry the same number of people as light rail are super faulty. You need many, many more buses—even if they're double decker—to safely carry the same number of people as a four-car train. Add to that the cost of each driver—rather than one driver for a single train. And let's not forget that the lifespan of a bus is much shorter than a light rail vehicle. Portland still uses their original light rail vehicles from 1986, for example. There are cities in Europe that still use their trams from the '60s. The oldest buses Salt Lake has, by contrast, are from 1999—and they're on their way out.

There are plenty more idiocies and absurdities to O'Toole's arguments, of course. The strangest thing is that the Tribune and Lee Davidson are placing any stock in the Cato Institute. But UTA is an easy target, so they go for it.

[jubguy3]

Originally Posted by Schmoe

I love public transit and this nation needs more of it, but I think studies like this come too early. As more transit-oriented development takes place, ridership and efficiency will improve.

So I was on highland today past I-80, and it's bad... UDOT needs to narrow it (how the hell can 13th and highland which are total five lanes end up getting narrowed to one total for access to the U because 11th becomes useless past 9th and not have congestion problems?). The sidewalks are crumbling and it doesn't look like a nice street to be on... Presumably it will get redone soon and they should narrow it to one lane with BRT lanes as the east side needs something soon...

[jubguy3]

Does anyone here think that downtown should get branded buses like the DC circulator and RTD MetroRide and MallRide? We (let's say using the rtd naming system) could have the TempleRide for south temple, we could rename the 2X to UteRide and give it all day service (maybe reduce 2's service or have a 2 that goes from 13th east to downtown every other trip?). We could also have a BroadwayRide (with service ending at 7nd east)
We could also get a variety of circulator with high freq (5 min) such as one for sugarhouse(Sugarcirculator) one for the university (maybe redundant due to the shuttles but UTA could take them over and brand them, integrate them with the system but keep them free) and a west temple- notempfr- avenues and west broadway type bus? (Temlplecirculator)

[i-215]

Originally Posted by jubguy3

So I was on highland today past I-80, and it's bad... UDOT needs to narrow it (how the hell can 13th and highland which are total five lanes end up getting narrowed to one total for access to the U because 11th becomes useless past 9th and not have congestion problems?). The sidewalks are crumbling and it doesn't look like a nice street to be on... Presumably it will get redone soon and they should narrow it to one lane with BRT lanes as the east side needs something soon...

I don't believe Highland is UDOT's road. I think it's on the border between two townships, which means it's Salt Lake County's road. So I wouldn't hold your breath on seeing any work done in the near future.

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by jubguy3

Does anyone here think that downtown should get branded buses like the DC circulator and RTD MetroRide and MallRide? We (let's say using the rtd naming system) could have the TempleRide for south temple, we could rename the 2X to UteRide and give it all day service (maybe reduce 2's service or have a 2 that goes from 13th east to downtown every other trip?). We could also have a BroadwayRide (with service ending at 7nd east)
We could also get a variety of circulator with high freq (5 min) such as one for sugarhouse(Sugarcirculator) one for the university (maybe redundant due to the shuttles but UTA could take them over and brand them, integrate them with the system but keep them free) and a west temple- notempfr- avenues and west broadway type bus? (Temlplecirculator)

I am all for this idea. This should happen before any downtown streetcar gets built in order to establish a dedicated ridership and to flesh out a high-frequency network. Then, one by one, the routes can be converted to streetcars, which have lower operating costs and even higher ridership.

[s.p.hansen]

Provo council votes unanimously on BRT

June 3, 2014. PROVO -- It may have taken a handful of revisions in the final hours and minutes leading up to Tuesday's meeting of the Provo Municipal Council, but come voting time all seven members voted unanimously on a joint mayor and council resolution supporting the preferred route of Option 4 and Bus Rapid Transit.

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/ce...0051454-a551-5657-b551-130880b5f5fa.html

"Construction should start this time next year and will be done in winter of 2016"
http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/ce...f68cb55-ba74-5f27-9b5f-0bace00fe2a5.html


There doesn't seem to be a definitive map yet of the entire finalized line in regards to what segments will have fully dedicated bus lanes. If everything is the same on this map but route 4, then just change the area around BYU to non dedicated lanes and the stops and it should be accurate.



http://www.brt4provo.com/2014/02/26/brt-route-4-is-the-best-compromise-for-provo/

[jubguy3]

Originally Posted by Hatman

I am all for this idea. This should happen before any downtown streetcar gets built in order to establish a dedicated ridership and to flesh out a high-frequency network. Then, one by one, the routes can be converted to streetcars, which have lower operating costs and even higher ridership.

agreed. also the argument for light rail that people know where and when the train comes can be established for buses with a somewhat similar level of investment (i.e. signs above stations that are large banners, unique stations, unique buses, high frequency) and uta can expect to see downtown become more accesible to tourists and commuters alike, as well as establish the idea for frontrunner circulators (i.e. adobe owned buses) and increase downtown ridership (all would be presumably free as a small minority of trips begin in downtown and run to these places meaning fare retention would reduce slightly

[delts145]

^^^
Hey S.P., Make sure you post that on the Provo Thread too bud. They love this stuff over there, but some never venture onto this thread very often.

[jubguy3]

Originally Posted by delts145

^^^
Hey S.P., Make sure you post that on the Provo Thread too bud. They love this stuff over there, but some never venture onto this thread very often.

I asked provo about what they though of it and also asked denver how it has affected them and if they think SLC would be a good choice for a branded bus

Keep in mind that mallride takes a total of 40000 people every weekday... Trax takes 70000 (presumably up to 75 or 80000 with the full year operations of draper and airport and continued growth in the valley, daybreak especially )? Light rail is king but buses can do well too

[jubguy3]

*sniffle sniffle*

OK, bad news guys, I read the network study and UTA doesn't give a 🞵🞵🞵🞵 unless it's brt 22 miles away from downtown (riverton 🞵🞵🞵?).
No branded buses except for places like Adobe and no brt downtown except for phase one 256M and 200M although state is downtown and therefore uta won't give a 🞵🞵🞵🞵. Highland drive? How about draper because 🞵🞵🞵🞵 responsible urbanism. East side? Here is some fake BRT to cheer you up which isn't going to solve 🞵🞵🞵🞵. UTA needs to seriously reconsider downtown and the east side as it is neglecting to appreciate it and instead is promoting sprawl by building corridors in the middle of nowhere. I don't think they understand urbanism and didn't read the wasatch choice for 2040 because ignoring high density zones and promoting low density zones is actually the opposite of what is needed. SL county needs to start strictly enforcing the grid system and essentially stopping all growth outside of our current space and penalizing developers like the peole who are building homes in riverton on a mass scale and building sad places like Jordan landing. It is ruining our future, it is ruining i15, it is ruining our dense communities like sugarhouse and Harvard Yale, it is ruining our air and our land. It's irresponsible and it makes me sad realizing UTA is ending up promoting sprawl. Why are we building transit in riverton and ignoring east side and preexisting neighborhoods where there isn't too much growth potential until we revitalize and rezone. Would poplar grove be a good place to do this? YES! It's 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 but it's close to city center and it has lots of unused land that ISNT 5 MILES FFROM 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 RIOTINTO KENNECOTT WHERE ITS UNSAFE TO GROW VEGETABLES.

Long story short, UTA is making grave mistakes and needs to reeducate its board and redo the master plan before it initiates further sprawl. 5600 west is the farthest we should go.


I remember growing up in Harvard Yale and seeing a house number more than. 2500 was surprising to me... I didn't have to drive 30 miles to downtown with my parents and I didn't have to get driven 2 to a school that was actually half a mile away. There was a strong sense of community but also (yes, I know Harvard Yale wow so surprising) little homogeneity. People were happy and we weren't slaves of our cars. People now have 5 digit house numbers and they are fully dependent on their cars. We should reduce the car dependency but also reduce the fact that we need to think about this in the first place.

Thank you for reading my rant and if you have a problem with it I will steal your gas money