The Great Canadian Skyline Thread! II

[Chadillaccc]

That photo Boris posted is also around 6 kilometers out of the core and on a not-so major street. It's not like that is the only example. I did live on that street last year, and it's not so bad, but no retail on that section. Right near Marda Loop though which is great! I like 17th Avenue and Bow Trail in and around Westbrook. It certainly isn't great yet by any means, but all I see is potential when I look around there. A subway station, tons of existing low-rise density, tons of street retail and pubs, an already completed major TOD with an almost 100-meter tall tower, and a mall ripe for redevelopment. I will get pictures this week as we are house/dog sitting for friends in Westbrook. It's kinda nice to be able to walk to a "subway" station to get to work again.

[flar]

I was at a national conference last week, and all I heard was Calgary this and Calgary that, Calgary's doing everything right, Calgary's the best. The one upsmanship is very tiresome. Unfortunately it extends to people who aren't even on SSP.

I mean it's great that there's such optimism there, and a can-do attitude is fine, but there is a bit of a mismatch with reality. I can understand it must be exciting to see the dramatic transformation of the city in a relatively short time. Yes, it's booming and it's becoming a big city, but it's still very far from joining the ranks of Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto. Someday it might get there, but right now Calgary is that arrogant prick in the expensive red convertible. That it's claim to fame is its really tall skyscrapers is very telling.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

That photo Boris posted is also around 7 kilometers out of the core and on a not-so major street.

Out of curiosity, how are you getting 7 km? On google maps I measure about 3 km from that location to centre st and 6th in downtown.

[Chadillaccc]

From the CBD? It was just a guess, I changed it down to 6 upon further thought. I've walked it a few times from the Keg on 4th Avenue, and it certainly didn't feel like 3 km.

Flar, no one was comparing Calgary to any of the Big 3, nor would anyone try. We know we're a very far way off from that. The point is that people need to stop under estimating us, especially when being compared to Ottawa.

[Ramako]

http://www.troll.me/meme/oh-lawd

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

From the CBD? It was just a guess, I changed it down to 6 upon further thought. I've walked it a few times from the Keg on 4th Avenue, and it certainly didn't feel like 3 km.

Flar, no one was comparing Calgary to any of the Big 3, nor would anyone try. We know we're a very far way off from that. The point is that people need to stop under estimating us, especially when being compared to Ottawa.

Walking would be more than 3, but that's the straight line distance from that part of the core and the intersection of 26th ave and 15th st SW. Walking via google maps directions gives just over 4km. You have to go up a pretty decent hill though so it would likely feel further.

Regarding the underestimating - I find that Ottawa is a city that is constantly underestimated. Likely because it's overshadowed by Montreal and Toronto and has a reputation as a boring government town.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

That is one depressing street. Yuk.

The 60s and 70s weren't kind to Calgary in terms of architecture, but there is a lot of modern infill in that area (Bankview) and it's actually a great area. The point is that there is decent density in inner city areas, they are just overshadowed by the massive towers downtown so they are barely noticeable in a lot of pictures.

Chad, that's more like 2km from downtown, not 7.

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by niwell

Regarding the underestimating - I find that Ottawa is a city that is constantly underestimated. Likely because it's overshadowed by Montreal and Toronto and has a reputation as a boring government town.

SNES aside I love Ottawa. The Market is a fun area, tons of beautiful historic buildings, great museums, incredibly fun in the winter, etc..

[J.OT13]

We could also compare the length and width of the dense downtowns of the 3 mid sized cities (Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton).

Downtown Ottawa/Hull is around 3.2km x 2km, Calgary is roughly 3km x 1.5km and Edmonton 4.5km x 650m. For about 2.3km of Edmonton's 4,5km, the skyline is only 2 blocks (200m) wide.

These rough Google maps aided stats are for areas with continuous 12+ storey buildings. Calgary is probably the most accurate since their buildings are concentrated in a fairly square area. Edmonton's L shape and Ottawa's river added to the numbers. If we just count the respective business districts; Ottawa (1km x 600m), Calgary (1.7km x 1km), Edmonton (900m x 1.2km). Note that Ottawa's CBD is perfectly square and only contains 2 large surface parking lots.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by niwell

Walking would be more than 3, but that's the straight line distance from that part of the core and the intersection of 26th ave and 15th st SW. Walking via google maps directions gives just over 4km. You have to go up a pretty decent hill though so it would likely feel further.

Yeah, that hill up 14th Street is the shits. That's probably why. I lived at 26th Ave and 19th Street.

[MTLskyline]

Originally Posted by Boris2k7

I think this one comes down to expectations of what we would define as "urban." What exactly is the lower threshold when it comes to this?

For example, I would bet you that 90% of people who have grown up in Alberta would identify the following street (in Bankview) as "urban" and "innercity" (they would also likely say that this is too dense for a neighbourhood they would want to live in). This is in one of those areas that Franks labelled as "flat" on his picture.



Would a person from Montreal identify this same street as having an urban character? From Toronto? Maybe not. Expectations are very different depending on your prior experiences.

Obviously, the presence of highrises is part of Chad's definition of what "urban" looks like.

EDIT: I also want to say that I adore Ottawa and look forward to every visit.

I wouldn't qualify it as either urban or suburban. It is kind of in between, a bit of a transitional area.
It reminds me a bit of some parts of Longueuil actually.

[kw5150]

Thats just the thing..............I dont think that Calgary is the best city in any category......at all. I dont think any city is "the best" except for the obvious ones like New York, Chicago....etc.... I like them all equally for the most part. But when I hear things that make no sense at all, I have to call them out. I walk and explore Calgary all the time (almost every weekend) and I am still not bored after 8 years......and I have fairly large expectations.

I dont like that we are lacking in civil / institutional buildings downtown. Other cities get more money for those
I hate that Calgary demolishes so many buildings
I dont like that we have parking lots all over the place
I dont like how we cling to history in some developments
I dont like the one way streets all over downtown.
I dont like how some of the new buildings are not including as much retail as the building that stood before.

I love how were are filling the city with mixed use developments, and thousands of people are choosing to live downtown.
I love our communities that surround the main downtown
I love our pathway system that is really well integrated into the urban fabric
I love that our river front is breaking out of that "pastoral, natural park setting" and becoming more urban.
I love our transit system and the new separated bike lanes.
I love our relaxed attitude towards things.

I dont know where you are hearing all this "one-upsmanship." Its a great place, but not that great yet.

Why arent people glad that Calgary is moving in the right direction? I would be happy if any other city was doing well.

I suggest that if you hate Calgary so much, stop driving your car and consuming oil products......yes, that mean you everyone!

Originally Posted by flar

I was at a national conference last week, and all I heard was Calgary this and Calgary that, Calgary's doing everything right, Calgary's the best. The one upsmanship is very tiresome. Unfortunately it extends to people who aren't even on SSP.

I mean it's great that there's such optimism there, and a can-do attitude is fine, but there is a bit of a mismatch with reality. I can understand it must be exciting to see the dramatic transformation of the city in a relatively short time. Yes, it's booming and it's becoming a big city, but it's still very far from joining the ranks of Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto. Someday it might get there, but right now Calgary is that arrogant prick in the expensive red convertible. That it's claim to fame is its really tall skyscrapers is very telling.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

We could also compare the length and width of the dense downtowns of the 3 mid sized cities (Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton).

Downtown Ottawa/Hull is around 3.2km x 2km, Calgary is roughly 3km x 1.5km and Edmonton 4.5km x 650m. For about 2.3km of Edmonton's 4,5km, the skyline is only 2 blocks (200m) wide.

These rough Google maps aided stats are for areas with continuous 12+ storey buildings. Calgary is probably the most accurate since their buildings are concentrated in a fairly square area. Edmonton's L shape and Ottawa's river added to the numbers. If we just count the respective business districts; Ottawa (1km x 600m), Calgary (1.7km x 1km), Edmonton (900m x 1.2km). Note that Ottawa's CBD is perfectly square and only contains 2 large surface parking lots.

Nicely done.

Edmonton's skyline is skewed in a sense because our river valley is our waterfront and as such it sees development stretched to maximize views and location.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by MTLskyline

I wouldn't qualify it as either urban or suburban. It is kind of in between, a bit of a transitional area.
It reminds me a bit of some parts of Longueuil actually.

... and certainly some areas of the city of Montreal too, and Toronto, and Ottawa, and Vancouver. Basically every city on this continent built crap like that during the 70s. Equating it with Longueuil is a copout. Or did you mean that it reminds you of the "urban" areas of Longueuil?

[kw5150]

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

... and certainly some areas of the city of Montreal too, and Toronto, and Ottawa, and Vancouver. Basically every city on this continent built crap like that during the 70s. Equating it with Longueuil is a copout. Or did you mean that it reminds you of the "urban" areas of Longueuil?

[MTLskyline]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

... and certainly some areas of the city of Montreal too, and Toronto, and Ottawa, and Vancouver. Basically every city on this continent built crap like that during the 70s. Equating it with Longueuil is a copout. Or did you mean that it reminds you of the "urban" areas of Longueuil?

I don't mean it in an insulting way - I'm not the type to bash other cities. Longueuil has a lot of these semi-urban looking areas, I'm just speaking about what I'm familiar with, since I grew up not far from Longueuil. You're not going to find many cookie-cutter houses in most of Longueuil.

Here are a few similar looking areas in Longueuil (it's definitely not a beautiful city, but the buildings are about the same size as what was in the picture I quoted)
http://goo.gl/maps/ougXe
http://goo.gl/maps/W7bJ2
http://goo.gl/maps/MIefV

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by harls

If you lived at that intersection, could you at least get the street names right?

D’oh! I can’t believe I did that. When I first moved to Ottawa I somehow got it stuck in my head that the street name was Summerset. Apparently I’ve reverted!

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Flar, no one was comparing Calgary to any of the Big 3, nor would anyone try. We know we're a very far way off from that. The point is that people need to stop under estimating us, especially when being compared to Ottawa.

Umm Chadillac..You need to go back a few pages, because It was Allan whatever his name is who chimed in first..Generally, I think the Ottawans on here are pretty civil.Reflecting that "comfortable in own skin" Ottawa personna.vs the alt. Not getting into specifics, just read.

And yes Harl..I agree..People here don't go to Montreal out of necessity..It's because "They can". Why not, it's a Saturday's morning's coffee or two away..It's purely for an outing or change of scenery.Maybe once or twice a year tops just to get away and change up cities for the day..Plenty of shopping here.Like yourself, most people I know hit Montreal or even Toronto just a couple times a year. Montreal, mainly for the incredible dining.100% agree with Flar that going stateside to Watertown's Salmon run mall or even Syracuse/Waterloo is where people, at least the smart shopping ones go.Again, because "they can"..My wife is actually going there this weekend..C-ya!

Originally Posted by Surrealplaces

Sorry to keep this debate still going, but just wanted to add in one minor correction. Calgary is larger than Ottawa if going by statcan's population estimates, which are actually more accurate than the census results. Either way very close in population. Again sorry to carry on the debate, just wanted to clarify that.

Okay fair enough..Somebody better tell the good folks from Stats Can or Wiki to change their official number than to the real bonafide official number, because every would be Tunisian immigrant or German tourist coming to Ottawa is tricked into thinking that they are going to Canada's fourth largest metro..Can be tragic for them, and the rest of those currently checking out Canada's factoids on the internet.

Originally Posted by Allan83

Ok, first of all I wasn’t speaking in absolutes. If you live in the immediate area and you want to go to Ikea, Lee Valley Tools, or Canadian Tire, then yes you will run in to Ottawa. But, as you yourself have just acknowledged, many thousands of Ottawanians go to Montreal to shop, or even just to go to a restaurant, and the people in the surrounding area do the same.

Well define regional centre then? To me it's that centre in which those people from those surrounding communities (Ottawa has tons btw) come into to get their wares and services. i only acknowledged that I go to Montreal for an outing, and not out of necessity..Huge difference..Again it's because we can..I doubt that if a Montreal type city was less than two hours from Calgary, Calgarians wouldn't do the same..If for just for an outing a couple of times a year.

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by niwell

This sounds about right. I knew people who took trips to Montreal or Toronto once in awhile, but it's not like people were travelling just to go out to dinner.

Yeah they do. Montreal is only two hours away. It's extravagant to do it on a weeknight, but I've done it. It's nothing to do it on a Saturday as part of a shopping trip, however.

I find it really hard to agree with this one. Calgary has some great neighbourhoods, but based on the age of the city you end up in 1950s style suburbia very quickly. Ottawa has many areas a significant distance from the core that are still relatively vibrant with streetfront retail. I'm thinking places like Westboro, Old Ottawa South, New Edinburgh and the Preston St corridor. These are outside of the more well-known central areas (Centretown, Glebe, Sandy Hill etc). Plus you have a completely separate CBD across the river with its own services.

You may be able to make a convincing argument that the central neighbourhoods in Calgary have more to offer in terms of shopping, restaurants, bars etc. but there aren't more of them. As flar posted earlier, this isn't a slight but it's largely to do with the respective ages of both places.

And yes, I have lived in both cities. I actually felt the opposite - like I was moving to a bigger city from Calgary to Ottawa. At least once I got used to the lack of skyline and saw more of the older urban neighbourhoods.

Westboro? I think there’s been a bit of recent development there, but there’s nothing very special about that area as I recall, other than the Bagel Shop which is close to there, iirc. And Ottawa South is all residential, isn’t it? Preston is a nice little area, Little Italy, but not big at all. It’s really only a few blocks long. Also note that contrary to your claim all the places you’ve mentioned are relatively central in Ottawa. There are some nice little areas in Ottawa, of course, like Vanier which has a few nice shops and restaurants as I recall. Chinatown is quite nice as well, but they tend to be small areas, and in terms of their numbers Ottawa isn’t even very close to Calgary. When was the last time you were in Calgary? In addition to the neighbourhoods I mentioned above, there’s Marda Loop, International Avenue on 17th east, which has gritty character but some good ethnic, restaurants. The 17th west up to 37th area is actually becoming a hub of international restaurants as well, and there are others. Yes, there are more older neighbourhoods in Ottawa, (but let’s not forget that parts of Calgary, like Inglewood, are 100 years old as well), but this is just about the only thing you’ve said that I think is valid. And old doesn’t mean big. It’s not a knock against Ottawa. It’s a very nice city in many ways, but it just looks and feels like a much smaller city than Calgary. I don’t think there can be any legitimate debate about that.

[Chadillaccc]

Yayyyy skylines! Taken by Jimby this past weekend.

Originally Posted by Jimby

winter scene by LUMIN8, on Flickr