Stadiums and Arenas of Canada

[esquire]

Originally Posted by osmo

So the biggest issue might be building a top tier 80K seat Stadium in either of those Citities. Toronto with its NFL lusts IMO would be the first to make it happen in some way.

Good point. Any Canadian bid for the World Cup would have to address the lack of a true large-scale, world-class venue for the final match. Olympic Stadium might have played that role 30 years ago, but I don't think it's up to those standards anymore.

It's likely that a Canadian bid for the World Cup probably would be contingent on Toronto getting a NFL team and as a result, building a billion-dollar plus, 80,000 seat open-air stadium that could be capable of hosting a World Cup final. I just can't see anyone ponying up the kind of money you need for a venue like that unless a NFL team is involved.

But that still gives you only seven suitable stadiums (new Toronto stadium, Skydome, Olympic Stadium, Investors Group Field, new Regina Stadium, Commonwealth Stadium, BC Place). If Ottawa's could be expanded to 40,000 then that's eight, and presumably Calgary will eventually get a new stadium which brings us up to nine. Based on recent precedent, you need at least ten World Cup venues... what would the tenth be? The easiest and cheapest route would be to stuff a bunch of temporary seats into Tim Hortons Field and be done with it.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

The easiest and cheapest route would be to stuff a bunch of temporary seats into Tim Hortons Field and be done with it.

THF at 40k

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's likely that a Canadian bid for the World Cup probably would be contingent on Toronto getting a NFL team and as a result, building a billion-dollar plus, 80,000 seat open-air stadium that could be capable of hosting a World Cup final. I just can't see anyone ponying up the kind of money you need for a venue like that unless a NFL team is involved.

Problem is there's no way the Feds will contribute to anything to aid the NFL coming to Canada which is a moot point because that "dream" is pretty much dead.

I think you'd be looking at a 40k stadium temporarily expanded to 80k.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by elly63

Problem is there's no way the Feds will contribute to anything to aid the NFL coming to Canada which is a moot point because that "dream" is pretty much dead.

I think you'd be looking at a 40k stadium temporarily expanded to 80k.

That dream certainly isn't dead. Look, Toronto is manoeuvring toward an Olympic bid for 2024 and we've already hosted several Buffalo home games. NFL teams don't take sharing home games lightly, in a few years that team will be sold and Toronto is by far the most likely candidate (there are several teams that may be candidates to transfer to LA before then so that factor is unlikely to be an issue). The main problem according to the MLSE President was the cost of building a stadium and a successful Olympic or FIFA bid could make that practical.

Australia successfully supports both their domestic rugby and ozzy-rules leagues while being part of 2 international rugby leagues. There's no reason why Toronto can't be both a CFL and NFL town simultaneously. If anything, the NFL exposure will get more people into football in general, paying dividends towards the local CFL franchise. I think the Argos are a pretty decent team and probably just lack a marketing edge. The double blue and "Argos" logos look dated and have no relevance to the city, I appreciate that it's a historic name but why not keep the historic franchise with a newer more marketable name and logo, many people can't relate to the Greek name and outdated logo in this city. The Raptors had a similar issue, hence their rebrand.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

That dream certainly isn't dead. Look, Toronto is manoeuvring toward an Olympic bid for 2024 and we're already hosted several Buffalo home games. NFL teams don't take sharing home games lightly, in a few years that team will be sold and Toronto is by far the most likely candidate (there are several teams that may be candidates to transfer to LA before then so that factor is unlikely to be an issue). The main problem according to the MLSE President was the cost of building a stadium and a successful Olympic or FIFA bid could make that practical.

MLSE mused publicly about buying the Argos with a long term goal of getting an NFL franchise. That would supposedly give them experience running a football operation to prove to the NFL that they could do so.

It's common knowledge the Buffalo experiment in Toronto has been a dismal failure with papered houses.

The NFL doesn't want to add Toronto. Canadian teams are the worst road and TV draws. To the Americans it would be like adding another Jacksonville or San Antonio in terms of recognition. London is the most likely foreign destination and that is a long way off.

While the rules are changing towards a single owner owning a franchise, the NFL wants a single face to head a franchise. MLSE would have to do some fancy financing to get past that, plus spend at least two billion to acquire a team and stadium with no prospect of a return for 20 years. The people making the money in the NFL are the owners who have had their franchises for 30 plus years.

Again, there is no way there will be government funding to in any way shape or form aid the NFL. This (NFL in TO) has been going on since the 80s and is no closer to fruition now than it was then.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

The double blue and "Argos" logos look dated and have no relevance to the city, I appreciate that it's a historic name but why not keep the historic franchise with a newer more marketable name and logo, many people can't relate to the Greek name and outdated logo in this city.

Are people there braindead? They can relate to a leaf but not a boat? What's an FC? How do I relate to that?

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by elly63

MLSE mused publicly about buying the Argos with a long term goal of getting an NFL franchise. That would supposedly give them experience running a football operation to prove to the NFL that they could do so.

It's common knowledge the Buffalo experiment in Toronto has been a dismal failure with papered houses.

The NFL doesn't want to add Toronto. Canadian teams are the worst road and TV draws. To the Americans it would be like adding another Jacksonville or San Antonio in terms of recognition. London is the most likely foreign destination and that is a long way off.

While the rules are changing towards a single owner owning a franchise, the NFL wants a single face to own a franchise. MLSE would have to do some fancy financing to get past that, plus spend at least two billion to acquire a team and stadium with no prospect of a return for 20 years. The people making the money in the NFL are the owners who have had their franchises for 30 plus years.

Again, there is no way there will be government funding to in any way shape or form aid the NFL. This (NFL in TO) has been going on since the 80s and is no closer to fruition now than it was then.

Judging by the absolute statements backed up by anecdotes and insufficient evidence to underline your overconfident statements, I'm willing to bet you have either a vested interest against a Toronto NFL team or just a hate on for this city. It goes without saying that the crappy record of the Buffalo Bills and the fact it still isn't a Toronto team in terms of branding makes it obvious why it would receive less support than a local NFL team, either way that arrangement is hardly a failure since it is still active and infact extended to at least 2017.

I don't recall Montreal getting so much hate when they first brought MLB to Canada, that is Toronto's fate after all...nothing we do pleases the ROC. Regardless, Toronto won't stop striving and only a fool would say the NFL would "never" come to Canada as there's still ambiguity there. There's certainly enough billionaires here and a new stadium (even if motivated by a FIFA World Cup or Olympics) could change everything...

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by elly63

Are people there braindead? They can relate to a leaf but not a boat? What's an FC? How do I relate to that?

Maple Leafs yes, a band of mythological Greek characters not so much. Your disrespectful way of talking about Torontonians reveals a lot about your views on this city. And what part of FC (Football Club) don't you get? How provincial and isolated must you be to not understand that...

[elly63]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

How provincial and isolated must you be to not understand that...

That's hilarious considering the wannabe culture of many who live in Toronto.

My favourite Toronto wannabe quote

"Rogers (Ted) was the big time and he's in there with Ralph Wilson who's small potatoes by comparison, and you're the metropolis (Toronto) and Buffalo is a little... just a shrinking city now, why would Toronto people want to be poor cousin to Buffalo, it should be the other way around"

Jerry Sullivan Buffalo News writer on Prime Time Sports.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

that is Toronto's fate after all...nothing we do pleases the ROC.

Cue the violins

Well anyway, before I get nailed for being off topic, there is another thread for this debate, let me wish you good luck with NFL in TO, 30 years and counting...

[osmo]

It would be Rogers or Larry Tanabum (sp?) whom would front the NFL operation. NFL rules state the teams have to be owned by a private owner or family. Ted Rogers was originally going to be that man before he passed away since it was one of his goals to do so. People can slam the NFL in Toronto series but just his week the Bills had struggles selling out their games and avoiding a blackout. There is a big black hole in that market that Toronto corporate cash could quickly plug of here. The NFL was always viewed as a corporate and wine and cheese endeavor and not for the common man. It would provide content for Canadian media outlets and it does not matter the draws on the road as the NFL in each healthy market which is 90% of the league sells out evrey game anyways.

It's a stretch but what other justification would you new to build and keep a 60k seat Stadium in Toronto.

The Olympics is what is on the eye for Toronto because it's the only way it can get infrastructure spending from the Feds. The World Cup could open up funding also but both those events require a large wiles class stadia. It can be temporary but even them what use would Toronto have for a 40k stadium 15 years down the road? The Argos are done downtown, so bringing them up is a non-starter unless it's with MLSE at a renovated BMO. Thier future ia at York or in the suburbs, nobody cares about Argos football downtown. The market here couldn't care less if they vanished tommorow. I'm from Sask and see the polarities here, I see more Rider green walking around in downtown Toronto than Argo blue!

But to the point, the final match still would still not have a home. Edmonton is a great town but IMO your WC final should be in your largest centers and neither of the big 3 cities have a proper UFEA Elite stadium, only Edmonton does. BC Place is static seating wise and can't be expanded even though it's nearly perfect in every other sense minus it's turf and capacity issue but that disqualifies it automatically for the finals match.

So Toronto or Montreal. Or maybe Calgary sticks it to evreybody and builds a temporary stadium capable of hosing the finals to be re-modded for the Stamps after. We might laugh at this but it's our 4th largest Metro, and 3rd largest pure city and from a branding perspective it would be good branding for the town to be known as the finals holder for the most watched TV on even on the globe. To me that is more viable because there is a looming need for the Stamls to dump McMahon.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by osmo

Edmonton is a great town but IMO your WC final should be in your largest centers and neither of the big 3 cities have a proper UFEA Elite stadium, only Edmonton does.

Uefa Guide to Quality Stadiums

[Berklon]

Yea, the WC is not a possibility in Canada... even with the additional stadiums coming online in the next few years. Very few (if any) are at the level of what FIFA demands, and there aren't enough cities with the infrastructure in place to handle it.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Yea, the WC is not a possibility in Canada... even with the additional stadiums coming online in the next few years. Very few (if any) are at the level of what FIFA demands, and there aren't enough cities with the infrastructure in place to handle it.

Sorry, my Yankee friend, every CFL stadium passes the criteria in the document above and we most certainly do have the external infrastructure to handle it.

Tell me, if we're such a backwater, how did we win three Olympic bids? That is a pretty exclusive club of countries to have cities hosting three Olympics.

[thurmas]

You guys are really underestimating Canada's capabilities. The World Cup can be done for cheap, very cheap! Stadiums pretty much World Cup ready with minor modifications or temporary seat expansion:
BC Place Vancouver
Commonwealth Stadium Edmonton
New Roughrider Stadium expected opening 2017,2018 Regina
IGF Field Winnipeg
Tim Horton's Field Hamilton
Frank Clair Stadium Ottawa

Now the costly stadium improvements or new ones to be built would be: The Big Owe in Montreal could be the host to the World Cup final with $500million plus in improvements

Calgary would need a $150 million makeover for McMahon Stadium or a brand new stadium for $250 million plus

Halifax would need a brand new stadium $200-250 million plus

Toronto could use Rogers Centre as a semi final home in it's current capacity or it could remove the hotel out of the stadium and expand the stadium to host the Final.

Overall Canada could host the World Cup for between 2 and 4 billion dollars which is quite cheap compared to what Sochi Russia spent on the 2014 Olympics for friggin $50 billion

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by elly63

Cue the violins

Well anyway, before I get nailed for being off topic, there is another thread for this debate, let me wish you good luck with NFL in TO, 30 years and counting...

Likewise, good luck wallowing in bitter ignorance in Hicksville, village idiots hating on cities 3000 years and counting...

[elly63]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Likewise, good luck wallowing in bitter ignorance in Hicksville, village idiots hating on cities 3000 years and counting...

That's not nice, and you wonder why people don't like you, aside from being wannabees.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Yea, the WC is not a possibility in Canada... even with the additional stadiums coming online in the next few years. Very few (if any) are at the level of what FIFA demands, and there aren't enough cities with the infrastructure in place to handle it.

All of our major cities that would be candidates except Regina (due to its modest airport, and lack of substantial transit) have the infrastructure capable of hosting WC matches. We share the same benefit to an extent like American NFL cities that our cities are all served well by support services like airports and hotels, our issue is that we don't have a single large capacity stadium for the final, but evreything else can fall in line if more seats need to be added and such.

Most other countries build a "National Stadium" that is either a palace of excess is was built by a dictator. Wembley for its billions in cost sits empty 85% of the time but no Britt would call it a waste. That type of stuff would get no traction in Canada in making the case to build a sports cathedral that nobody will use.

The UFEA guideline package is a good read. They have revamped it do to backwater stadiums in small town Europe are now coming to the stages of renovation. The old stuff I used to read never emphasized the need for economic needs in and around the stadium to the degree this package posted has. I believe BC Place would be considered "4-star" as the Arena Stadium in Munich in which the renovation borrowed a lot of inspiration from. The semi-final would take place there.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by thurmas

You guys are really underestimating Canada's capabilities.

No, they're just uninformed. There is no rhyme nor reason to a FIFA selection. Having the best bid doesn't necessarily win, this has been shown time and again.

There will come a time when a country will go overboard with spending (like the Athens Olympics) and FIFA not wanting to be related to a fiasco like that will choose a safe and stable bidder for the host country.

[elly63]

What always kills me are the "naysayers" who say we can't restore a nearly 40 year old Montreal Olympic Stadium (should we choose to go that route) They conveniently forget about the Olympiastadion in Berlin opened in 1936 or Luzhniki Stadium opened in 1956.

We have everything to host big events. That's what we do best. It saddens me to see "defeatists" in Canada (for lack of a better word) who seem to be too young to have experienced the time when we sought out big projects and succeeded (save the 2010 Olympics being recent)