Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[YVR Bruce]

Originally Posted by nname

1.46 billions.

Anyone seen an accounting of how this happened vis-a-vis the original $709m budget? Land costs? If it's expanded segregation - what a bad deal to spend all that and still not have full separation.

The original budget was $85m/k (vs $105m/k for RAV). At $1.46b that's $178m per km, even passing Seattle's LRT costs. And for the targeted 70,000 weekday riders, that's 60% more/px than RAV...

Looking at YYC and SEA, I can't see how anyone - like Surrey -gets excited about LRT. Better than nothing, but it ultimately suppresses other project funding. And that is before the farebox recovery issue.

[Robert in Calgary]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I am just too big a fan of grade separation and automation though.

I agree!

Some other points -

I believe all the West LRT stations have been built for four car trains, as we oh so slowly move forward on that project.


Sunalta Station is at 16 St. SW and is the first stop outside of downtown. The current end of line downtown is (was) at 10th St. SW. 10th St Stn. has been closed and the new station is a block to the west.

West LRT website - http://www.westlrt.ca/

Aha... here's the official presentation from 2007, the original official number was $700 million, now the "total" cost is $1.4 billion. - http://www.westlrt.ca/files/West%20LRT%20Presentation%20to%20Council.pdf

[nname]

Originally Posted by YVR Bruce

Anyone seen an accounting of how this happened vis-a-vis the original $709m budget? Land costs? If it's expanded segregation - what a bad deal to spend all that and still not have full separation.

The original budget was $85m/k (vs $105m/k for RAV). At $1.46b that's $178m per km, even passing Seattle's LRT costs. And for the targeted 70,000 weekday riders, that's 60% more/px than RAV...

Looking at YYC and SEA, I can't see how anyone - like Surrey -gets excited about LRT. Better than nothing, but it ultimately suppresses other project funding. And that is before the farebox recovery issue.

The 700M figure and all previous C-Train cost figures only include guideway, stations, and building structures. These items are never included in the estimates -

Trains
Land acquisition
Building relocation
Design and consultations
Pre-construction utility relocation
Associated highway interchanges / grade separation

I think what's driving up the West LRT cost would be the land acquisition and the building relocation. I think they have to relocate a high school and a church along the way?

[nname]

Originally Posted by Robert in Calgary

I believe all the West LRT stations have been built for four car trains, as we oh so slowly move forward on that project.

I'm a bit surprised that they did not leave any provision of extending the platform for 5-car trains. Stations like 69 St. and Westbrook was designed in a way that it is virtually impossible to extend platform any longer. Not sure if it is ever needed, but maybe 20 years down the road, 4 cars will no longer sufficient? If that's the case, what will they do? Building the downtown subway may allow more frequent train, but line such as the south leg already running pretty close to the maximum practical frequency...

[DKaz]

They will build a downtown tunnel eventually that'll allow them to increase the frequency of trains, and remember a four car CTrain is the equivalent of an eight car MKI. Should be even better since all their new trains going forward only have side facing seats.

As for 156 St, the shoulder looks wide enough. Just put up a concrete barrier, build a simple curb, and build stops. I wouldn't want the bus to detour into a bus exchange and add a few minutes to the trip.

[nname]

Originally Posted by DKaz

They will build a downtown tunnel eventually that'll allow them to increase the frequency of trains, and remember a four car CTrain is the equivalent of an eight car MKI. Should be even better since all their new trains going forward only have side facing seats.

I'm just asking, if there's a plan of whats the "next step" is after all these capacity improving mechanism is used up. I think pretty much everyone know that the C-Train is running very close to full capacity of what the system is capable of handling right now. Adding a 4th car will add 33% to the capacity; building a downtown tunnel can add another 33%*. Add them all up will give 78% of additional capacity in the long term. If the growth that occurred in the last decade occurs again, that 78% is going to be eaten up quite quickly.

I'm just asking because here in Vancouver, many people are worried about the capacity issues on Expo and Canada Line. They are worried that the system have no way to meet with the demand after using up all the provision for expansion. But in fact, both lines here have much more spare capacity than the C-Train system**. So I'm just wondering if there's a similar worry there.


* = I isn't know of any official figure of how the train will operate after the subway is built. The current average peak headway of the south line is 4min (30 trains over 2 hours). From other sources in other cities, it is stated that in order for the LRT trains to run effectively with signal priority (for the at-grade intersection outside downtown), the minimum headway cannot be lower than 3min. So an improvement to 3min headway will give 33%.

** = For Canada Line: Headway to 2min +75%; to 3cars trains with platform expansion +50%, totaling 163% extra capacity. For Expo Line, all MkII trains +19%; extend short-turn to full train +9%; headway to 75s +24%; 5-cars +25%; 6-cars with platform extension +20%, for a total of 138%.

Originally Posted by DKaz

As for 156 St, the shoulder looks wide enough. Just put up a concrete barrier, build a simple curb, and build stops. I wouldn't want the bus to detour into a bus exchange and add a few minutes to the trip.

Not to mention even a few minute detour would require them to add a third bus for the route as the scheduling is already very tight. That's 50% increase in service right there.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by nname

Not to mention even a few minute detour would require them to add a third bus for the route as the scheduling is already very tight. That's 50% increase in service right there.

The time added would be < 1 min, if the bus came down, went through the light, picked up, dropped off, and got back on the highway. There is 5 min layover at Braid, and either 1 or 11 minutes layover at Carvolth.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

The time added would be < 1 min, if the bus came down, went through the light, picked up, dropped off, and got back on the highway. There is 5 min layover at Braid, and either 1 or 11 minutes layover at Carvolth.

Yea, probably a minute or even less if they time the green light for the bus. nname and myself were talking about if the bus had to turn I assume south towards a bus exchange, that's a significant amount of time you're adding for the Langley commuters. I'd rather that Guildford get their own express bus if that was the case.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by DKaz

Yea, probably a minute or even less if they time the green light for the bus. nname and myself were talking about if the bus had to turn I assume south towards a bus exchange, that's a significant amount of time you're adding for the Langley commuters. I'd rather that Guildford get their own express bus if that was the case.

There is the 509 that is running express basically in the peak direction that works out somewhat. Still, very limited service.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by nname

The 700M figure and all previous C-Train cost figures only include guideway, stations, and building structures. These items are never included in the estimates -

Trains
Land acquisition
Building relocation
Design and consultations
Pre-construction utility relocation
Associated highway interchanges / grade separation

I think what's driving up the West LRT cost would be the land acquisition and the building relocation. I think they have to relocate a high school and a church along the way?

That's like advertising the cost to purchase a custom built house is only the cost of the materials.

[You Need A Thneed]

The $700M for Calgary's West LRT is just the construction cost. As has been said, property acquisition, LRV cars, design work, etc are on top of that.

The new high school is in that total too, though I believe the city only paid half (the province paid the other half and got a new school for half price). There's a parkade at the end of the line.

I also believe that the city will now be selling some of the excess land it bought up to do the project. There are some large chunks around Westbrook station that will bring a significant amount of money back to the city. I wouldn't be surprised if the city can sell the land for more than they paid for it.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

The $700M for Calgary's West LRT is just the construction cost. As has been said, property acquisition, LRV cars, design work, etc are on top of that.

The new high school is in that total too, though I believe the city only paid half (the province paid the other half and got a new school for half price). There's a parkade at the end of the line.

I also believe that the city will now be selling some of the excess land it bought up to do the project. There are some large chunks around Westbrook station that will bring a significant amount of money back to the city. I wouldn't be surprised if the city can sell the land for more than they paid for it.

I believe there was also a scope change for placing the 45th street station below grade (trenched) vs. on the surface. this change was made after the initial 700 million budget, but before construction. another 61 million there. all in all I believe they are reporting a 2 % cost overrun.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by nname

I'm just asking, if there's a plan of whats the "next step" is after all these capacity improving mechanism is used up. I think pretty much everyone know that the C-Train is running very close to full capacity of what the system is capable of handling right now. Adding a 4th car will add 33% to the capacity; building a downtown tunnel can add another 33%*. Add them all up will give 78% of additional capacity in the long term. If the growth that occurred in the last decade occurs again, that 78% is going to be eaten up quite quickly.

I'm just asking because here in Vancouver, many people are worried about the capacity issues on Expo and Canada Line. They are worried that the system have no way to meet with the demand after using up all the provision for expansion. But in fact, both lines here have much more spare capacity than the C-Train system**. So I'm just wondering if there's a similar worry there.


* = I isn't know of any official figure of how the train will operate after the subway is built. The current average peak headway of the south line is 4min (30 trains over 2 hours). From other sources in other cities, it is stated that in order for the LRT trains to run effectively with signal priority (for the at-grade intersection outside downtown), the minimum headway cannot be lower than 3min. So an improvement to 3min headway will give 33%.

** = For Canada Line: Headway to 2min +75%; to 3cars trains with platform expansion +50%, totaling 163% extra capacity. For Expo Line, all MkII trains +19%; extend short-turn to full train +9%; headway to 75s +24%; 5-cars +25%; 6-cars with platform extension +20%, for a total of 138%.



Not to mention even a few minute detour would require them to add a third bus for the route as the scheduling is already very tight. That's 50% increase in service right there.

The Calgary LRT has been planning for decades to build a tunnel under 8th Avenue from City Hall (3rd ST SE) to 9th St SW. The 'new' city hall and the Olympic Plaza were built with LRT tunnels in place. There are rumors that a station can be built under the Olympic Plaza. These pieces of the LRT subway are empty, or being used for storage &tc for now.

A plan I saw back then had the NW leg and South leg using the 8th Ave subway, and the NE leg and new West leg will remain on 7th Ave - effectively creating two separate LRT lines that parallel each other through downtown.

There will be some kind of cross-over section built east of City Hall so trains from all these legs can run on the 8th Ave subway tracks or 7th Ave street tracks in an emergency.

Further in the future, the next new train lines on the drawing board are the South East line to get to the new regional hospital, and the Centre Street North Line to get to Hidden Valley. It is thought that these two lines will be joined together in another subway tunnel under 2nd St W or 3rd St W.

[nname]

More service optimizations in UBC:

http://www.planning.ubc.ca/vancouver_home/consultations/proposed_campus_shuttle_route_changes_.php

Cancellation of C22, conversion of C20 to two-way service, frequency reduction in counterclockwise direction, and extend the route.

[nname]

2011 Weekday SkyTrain Count



Note: Number including boarding, alighting, and transfers.

[trofirhen]

To me, the above graph points up the importance of getting the Broadway Corridor line built.

[nname]

Also from the data...

Total SkyTrain boardings including transfer: 449,800, or 9,370 per station
(this is more than the typical data reported by TransLink because that one does not include transfer between E and M line)

Total Expo Line boardings (exclude Commercial-Broadway and Columbia): 221,882

Total Millennium Line boardings (exclude Commercial-Broadway and Columbia): 54,618

Total Expo/Millennium transfer station boardings (Commercial-Broadway and Columbia): 60,177

Total Canada Line boardings: 113,123

Total boardings within Vancouver: 255,501, or 57% of total, 12,167 per station

Total boardings within Burnaby: 82,951, or 18% of total, 7,541 per station

Total boardings within Surrey: 39,169, or 9% of total, 9,792 per station

Total boardings within New Westminster: 37,180, or 8% of total, 7,436 per station

Total boardings within Richmond: 34,999, or 8% of total, 5,000 per station

Largest growth since 2006 (Millennium Line): Sapperton, growth +111%

Smallest growth since 2006 (Millennium Line): Production Way, growth -8%

Raw data here. Hmm... what else can I make out of this?

[st7860]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

To me, the above graph points up the importance of getting the Broadway Corridor line built.

Of course but some people will always say something funny like "compared with people in Surrey, UBC student's don't vote" or "UBC students are already taking transit anyway so it would be a waste of money to build skytrain"

[nname]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

To me, the above graph points up the importance of getting the Broadway Corridor line built.

Note that the above number include Expo-Millennium line transfers. So the actual entrance/exit for Commercial-Broadway would probably be 20-30k less.

But then Broadway should still be on the top since Waterfront number have Expo/Canada line transfers and walkthrough too...

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by nname

2011 Weekday SkyTrain Count



Note: Number including boarding, alighting, and transfers.

I like this graph but shouldn't commercial / broadway be partial Expo blue and partial M-Line orange?