[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

For now we are stuck with this. Photo by me taken from the 6th floor of 1718 Argyle St.

Let's get back to the construction details.

This is an old post by Jstaleness. I am impressed by how deep the excavation will be. The deepest part of the complex will be two levels of parking and there will be one level of the convention centre below the concrete floor in the image above. I wonder if this will set a record for the deepest excavation ever in the Halifax area?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by phrenic

She writing about the lack of civic engagement associated with the Convention Centre proposal, not about "business" or even the economics of the proposal. She's absolutely right and you're just insulting her, rather than offering any counterpoints. Classy.

She has a weekly space in the Business section of the Sunday Herald. Her column is called "Just Business". Excuse me for assuming that she knows something about business or that she writes about business. However, from reading her work week after week I can understand why someone might presume otherwise.

As for the lack of "civic engagement", cripes. What more do you want? The thing has been debated here and elsewhere for a year and a half, and over the last month it has been virtual nonstop press and social media chatter. Unless you turn the design process over to a bunch of nominees from the general public I'm not sure how much more "engagement" you can get. Does govt ask the community what they want a bridge or a govt office building to look like? Not usually. That's what I mean when I say this is getting out of hand. I suspect it is just another tactic proposed by those who want to obstruct and delay.

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

This thread is now officially retarded.

My thoughts exactly. Any thread that gets six pages of repetitive points is clearly getting beyond its intended use.

In a short form I support this project fully. The renderings and floor plans show it will make good use of the area.

[David1gray]

ya this is crazy. i keep coming on here to read about this and i am reading the same things over and over

oh just saw your post dmajackson and couldnt agree more.

[fenwick16]

The actual cost details were only announced about 10 days ago. I am sure that is why it is getting so much print throughout the media and on this forum. I don't really think there is anything out of the ordinary for people to question costs since it is an important consideration of almost all construction project designs (most designs do have cost factored in).

Either this project will be approved (I hope) or rejected. If it is approved and construction begins then all talk about cost will be forgotten. I am also getting bored about questions about costs but we are all adults here so we can just skip over the ones that we are not interested in.

If you go to other threads on public projects throughout the Canadian section you will see the same debates. Here are a couple of examples:

Hamilton Pan-Am Stadium: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=5016429#post5016429
Regina Multipurpose Entertainment Centre (Stadium): http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=171703&page=57

[DigitalNinja]

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

My thoughts exactly. Any thread that gets six pages of repetitive points is clearly getting beyond its intended use.

In a short form I support this project fully. The renderings and floor plans show it will make good use of the area.

Ditto. I actually like how the center is underground in the middle of the complex. It is a good use of space. and keeps a big bulk away.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by DigitalNinja

Ditto. I actually like how the center is underground in the middle of the complex. It is a good use of space. and keeps a big bulk away.

Agreed. It is practical because downtown Halifax is built into the side of a hill (almost all downtown buildings are built this way). It is also good in that it increases the usable space in the complex without a corresponding increase in height.

I am fascinated by this design. The curved roof and hangars are almost like a bridge design for the Grafton Street Pedway. However, the span over the level 2 of the convention centre looks like about 150 feet and the drawing doesn't indicate how it is supported (I assume that there will have to be very large trusses supporting the floor between level 1 and level 2). These are very large areas which are column-free and therefore require a special design.

(source: http://www.tradecentrelimited.com/site-tcl/media/tradecentrelimited/Deloitte%20Report.pdf)

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Let's get back to the construction details.

This is an old post by Jstaleness. I am impressed by how deep the excavation will be. The deepest part of the complex will be two levels of parking and there will be one level of the convention centre below the concrete floor in the image above. I wonder if this will set a record for the deepest excavation ever in the Halifax area?

Well, that picture demonstrates it is not as MASSIVE as the obsructionists say. And anything in the design of the squat herald building for this site would look terrible.

I'm just trying to say that the discussion for this development is at religion level, where there is almost no point in disucssing it until it is actually under construction.

I would like more indication of a final rendering, I don't know which are the new ones (blue eaton centre ones v.s. the green ones that have similar form to scotia square).

I hope there is a bit of redesign done, but whatever, the lots aren't as big as everybody thinks.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by DigitalNinja

Ditto. I actually like how the center is underground in the middle of the complex. It is a good use of space. and keeps a big bulk away.

This is the thing I really don't get with a lot of the naysayers. For some reason the Ottawa Convention Center is the go-to comparison point, but fundamental architectural considerations between the two like geography are completely different. Halifax is a very hilly city with tough soil and the site is well back of the waterfront - unless you want to build the CC on stilts (imagine the Save The View posse's reaction to THAT ) or have the main entrance open out onto...pizza corner... you essentially HAVE to build the convention space into the slope. IIRC Ottawa's center is right along the canal and has a good amount of relatively flat space surrounding the site, more well-suited to an elevated design.

Plus let's face it, Ottawa has a much more important reputation to uphold with regard to diplomatic appearances than Halifax does. I don't know much of anything with regard to the economics or politics of it all, but I'd have to imagine that the federal government is going to be willing to chip in significant contributions towards public buildings in the capital given its in their best interest to do so - it reflects poorly on the whole country if such buildings aren't world-class. a number of my friends in Ottawa have a lot of praise for the city's transit and public works, and I'm certain it's for the exact same reason. This isn't to say that Halifax shouldn't have nice public buildings or anything like that, just that it's a bit of an unfair comparison when Ottawa is likely to be far more self-conscious about international image.

[Buckey]

Sorry folks for annoying you. I though the discussion was a lot of flushing out of information. If the media and the governments would of been a lot clearer and not so hypish and fuzzy than a lot of those posts would of been unnessecary. I think this is a discussion board so I dont care of you dont like that I may have re-itereated a few things. I am done with taking the status quo government spending. Sorry staus quo on how we do things around here is not satisfactory

Frankly I find a slew of whining posts about whining very annoying. Maybe you could all go the HT they like to whine too. I have not posted but read everything all weekend. I make no apologies for a lot of posts discussing this complicated proposal. I am asking for transparancy and full disclosure. It is very obvious that information made public was misleading at best. I look at this CC as if I am purchasing it with my money. The analogy is to a car salesman who tells you the monthly payment but will not show you the contract with the payment terms and fine print.

I make no apologies at all about being stubborn here. I am sorry those hype ads of no payments until 2014 on TV have been adopted here. Come clean publish the real jobs numbers and stop hyping this. I have said I am warming to the center idea but I still need more clear and consise info. Is this HABITAT for RAMIA WHERE WE HELP BUILD HIM A GREAT COMPLEX or is this a good deal for Halifax. I am not sure because They are not transparent.

I am so well aware this is Halifax and Nova Scotia and we do things differently here with public money but lets flush out the facts and the data. and stop whining because I am aSKING A FEW QUESTIONS

[fenwick16]

I appreciate the questions and insight, Buckey. Hopefully we will get more details next week after the financial details are discussed with the HRM council on October 19. I am looking forward to getting more information at that time. It seems as though you and I are the only ones who have much interest in the financial details. My personal opinion (completely conjecture) is that the NDP told Rank Inc. that they don't have the money and then Rank Inc. said that they would work something out (no payments until 2014).

PS: Regarding your question about cost per square foot - this CC will cost more because of the column-free design that was specified in the Request For Proposals. Also regarding your other question regarding the 10% of the complex, even though the official gross square footage is 306,000 sq. ft (about 25% of the total complex) some of that is double height so in terms of volume it is more than the 25% ratio suggests.

[DigitalNinja]

I agree that cost is important, but this is a skyscraper forum, not how much it should cost for a development forum.
I would appriciate it since you two are the only ones really discussing price to maybe PM so those of us who are just interested in the development won't have to sort through posts.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by DigitalNinja

I agree that cost is important, but this is a skyscraper forum, not how much it should cost for a development forum.
I would appriciate it since you two are the only ones really discussing price to maybe PM so those of us who are just interested in the development won't have to sort through posts.

Give it a break DigitalNinja! We have cut out the talk about costs. There are posts about project costs throughout this section and others. Now you are just being a prick! Do you understand what censorship means! This is a free country If I am going to be censored for what I posted above then this forum is worthless! Go ahead and complain - now you are being ridiculous!!

It is one thing to made a request, it is another to force you interests and lack of interest on people. Based on what I have read of Buckey's posts, he has provided a lot more useful information than you have in your posts.

PS: Can we also start complaining about people posting completely useless information? Show me one useful piece of information that you have posted in the past few days, DigitalNinja. If you don't like information on costs then re-direct the discussion by posting something more interesting. When more cost information is released in the newspapers in a few days must we all ignore it and pretend that it isn't in the newspapers?

PS: Explaining why this convention centre would cost more per square foot than a standard building because it is column-free seems to be directly related to this development.

DigitalNinja -

Anyway it doesn't matter anymore. I'm not going to bother posting in this thread until some new concrete information is realeased.

Whatever will we all do without you posting an image of a mall in China on this thread. What possible connection is there???

[DigitalNinja]

I comment on developments, not the costs, something that we cannot do anything about.
I commented about the fact that the convention center is underground, which is also very note worthy in the paper and many people are bringing it up.
Anyway I was not being mean, or aggressive, I asked since it was just Berkley and yourself if you could maybe open a new thread or dicuss it in a PM because others here have also complained about the talk about costs and how it is useless to talk about at this point.

Also your last post was about costs.

" am looking forward to getting more information at that time. It seems as though you and I are the only ones who have much interest in the financial details. My personal opinion (completely conjecture) is that the NDP told Rank Inc. that they don't have the money and then Rank Inc. said that they would work something out (no payments until 2014)." (Fenwick16)

"PS: Regarding your question about cost per square foot - this CC will cost more because of the column-free design that was specified in the Request For Proposals. Also regarding your other question regarding the 10% of the complex, even though the official gross square footage is 306,000 sq. ft (about 25% of the total complex) some of that is double height so in terms of volume it is more than the 25% ratio suggests." (Fenwick16)

Anyway it doesn't matter anymore. I'm not going to bother posting in this thread until some new concrete information is realeased.

[Buckey]

Digital ninja

I am have not read the TOU for this site but am I led to beleive by your statements that costs of a development are off topic and a violation of the TOU?

Intuitively I would think that costs are germaine to any discussion But I apologize if I made an assumption here that costs of the project were relevant.


and when the citizens of the HRM are paying to rent the space I would think that it is very important. BUt I may be worng

[Empire]

Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir

This is the thing I really don't get with a lot of the naysayers. For some reason the Ottawa Convention Center is the go-to comparison point, but fundamental architectural considerations between the two like geography are completely different. Halifax is a very hilly city with tough soil and the site is well back of the waterfront - unless you want to build the CC on stilts (imagine the Save The View posse's reaction to THAT ) or have the main entrance open out onto...pizza corner... you essentially HAVE to build the convention space into the slope. IIRC Ottawa's center is right along the canal and has a good amount of relatively flat space surrounding the site, more well-suited to an elevated design.

Plus let's face it, Ottawa has a much more important reputation to uphold with regard to diplomatic appearances than Halifax does. I don't know much of anything with regard to the economics or politics of it all, but I'd have to imagine that the federal government is going to be willing to chip in significant contributions towards public buildings in the capital given its in their best interest to do so - it reflects poorly on the whole country if such buildings aren't world-class. a number of my friends in Ottawa have a lot of praise for the city's transit and public works, and I'm certain it's for the exact same reason. This isn't to say that Halifax shouldn't have nice public buildings or anything like that, just that it's a bit of an unfair comparison when Ottawa is likely to be far more self-conscious about international image.

The point of comparing Hfx CC to Ottawa CC is that Ottawa has taken advantage of a great opportunity site. I have seen the new convention centre in Ottawa and the circular design will give a pano view of the Rideau Canal, the War memorial, Chateau Laurier and the Parliament buildings. Yes meeting rooms will be in the dark etc. but the Ottawa CC will have a great reception, lobby, observation, concourse area. Halifax has better views but no one will see them until they leave the convention centre.

[DigitalNinja]

Unfortuantly to see more of a view the center would need to be up higher to be above the other buildings... I'd say floor 2 or 3 at least. That would make it take up the Rd. in the middle to get the big meeting space in.

[halifaxboyns]

The difficulty for the design of the CC is the change in grade - that hill is a challenge. So I agree; if anyone is going to be able to see the view; they would have to leave or dedicate meeting space on the upper floor of the hotel (smaller meeting rooms). Someone mentioned a roof top patio; which is fine but if you moved some of the meeting space up to the upper floors (smaller rooms) that would take advantage of it.

I'll give you an example. In 2007, I attended the American Planning Association's annual conference in Las Vegas. The main meeting spaces were at Paris and Balley's hotels. Now for the most part; my meetings were in windowless boxes at the back of the hotels. But there were two sessions I attended (I can't remember the topics) that were located on the upper floors of Balleys. The view from these meetings rooms was amazing - one had a view of the strip; the other a not so great view of the airport and other towers down the strip.

I think fenwick's suggestion on the Philadelphia tower as an example for this building's design is reasonable. It looks good but I'd like to see some treatment of the building to include (if possible) some design elements from adjacent heritage buildings or from the citadell. If not; I won't cry over it.

Just one last comment about the rants of the past few days - KeithP> Calgary has a policy about downtown towers and bird strikes coming. I can't wait to see it *rolls eyes*.

As to the issue about debating the cost - that happens all the time. We can't help but do it; but I freely admit I don't understand it so I will leave it all up to you to do that part.

[gm_scott]

Sort of unrelated to the current conversations, but related to the project itself. How will retail do here? I'm sort of worried it will fail. Scotia square is close but its only doing okay. Granville is a similar concept, but doesn't seem to do too well, but is limited by a dead end.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

... the span over the level 2 of the convention centre looks like about 150 feet and the drawing doesn't indicate how it is supported (I assume that there will have to be very large trusses supporting the floor between level 1 and level 2). These are very large areas which are column-free and therefore require a special design.

(source: http://www.tradecentrelimited.com/site-tcl/media/tradecentrelimited/Deloitte%20Report.pdf)

I think that the primary span on the level that you're referring to runs perpendicular to the way that the section is drawn - it looks to me like they're using some precast concrete beams to deal with the span - no doubt they'll be pretty hefty. I can't quite make out the writing, but it looks like the big precast beams are identified as "double-T"... I would expect that the "T" is in reference to the shape of the beams in cross section.... not sure what's "double" about them