[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[sdm]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

That idiot is Rick Howe and yes, he is a moron. Always railing against "the man" and against any sort of development. He and Kommissar Epstein make for a good pair of jokers -- both worthless.

If D. Dexter had a backbone he would boot der Kommissar and his followers out of caucus and let them sit out in the cold.

If he did that he can kiss a majority of his Halifax seats gone with a move like that.

[spaustin]

Originally Posted by Buckey

I think that we must discount a lot of the people currently being quoted on this center. I feel that anything Ramia or Mcrea say are obviously biased. Lydon Lynch are likely not objective. The heritage group well they dont even know what they are against. They answer NO before the question is asked.

As well as the trade centre and parts of the business community. I'm no expert, but my gut inkling is that they're painting a much rosier picture than what the reality will be in much the same way the Save the View crowd are claiming nothing but doom and gloom. The hype that this will "fix" Downtown (by the way it's not really broken) is really hard to swallow, but common sense and reason left this public debate long ago.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by DigitalNinja

My point was there is nothing concrete on this yet, neither the design, jobs, etc... And you don't know how they are finding out the job numbers and what they are counting as a job. They are probably counting every possible thing that goes with the convention center.

There is minor tweaking with the design that might happen, but that will be purely material choices or internal finishes. Soon as the design changes any the bid changes, and subsequently the price.

The developer has clearly stated he will allow public input into the design, but in the end that he has the final say as cited in a allnovascotia article.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

I wonder if the MC/WTCC could be renovated, and have the ice surface rotated 90 degrees so it runs east-west. There would then be a lot more space on the sides for upper decks.

Quite amazingly, it seems as though the MTS Centre in Winnipeg would be almost a perfect fit for the Metro Centre/WTCC site in Halifax with the rink at 90 degrees to the current layout. Here is the Winnipeg MTS Centre overlaid on the Halifax site. If this ever happens then Halifax would have to use the Halifax Forum for a couple of years.

PS: The MTS has a slightly slanted front but I am sure that a new Metro Centre II could be built square to Argyle Street. So it actually looks like it is possible.

15,000 Winnipeg MTS Centre Arena overlaid on the Metro Centre/WTCC block

[DigitalNinja]

Originally Posted by sdm

There is minor tweaking with the design that might happen, but that will be purely material choices or internal finishes. Soon as the design changes any the bid changes, and subsequently the price.

The developer has clearly stated he will allow public input into the design, but in the end that he has the final say as cited in a allnovascotia article.

Didn't know it was final, final. Still we don't know exactly how they are coming up with the job numbers or what type of structure they will be using for financing it.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by sdm

There is minor tweaking with the design that might happen, but that will be purely material choices or internal finishes. Soon as the design changes any the bid changes, and subsequently the price.

The developer has clearly stated he will allow public input into the design, but in the end that he has the final say as cited in a allnovascotia article.

I hope the developer realizes that the convention centre should have street presence on more than just Argyle St. (not currently in the design). In addition, space at the top of the hotel would be great for receptions or a restaurant to max out the view. The current Trade Centre has zero street presence so I hope we don't repeat this mistake.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by Empire

I hope the developer realizes that the convention centre should have street presence on more than just Argyle St. (not currently in the design). In addition, space at the top of the hotel would be great for receptions or a restaurant to max out the view. The current Trade Centre has zero street presence so I hope we don't repeat this mistake.

Well one would need to only assume that the bid submission is based on the current design. If there are changes, which most likely would result in cost based changes that the bid amount is in question. Maybe there is an allowance built into the bid price for some changes, one can hope.

Overall i think the total project design may be causing an influence on the convention centre design. But who knows.......

[Buckey]

The Hype phase is over and the thinking phase has begun. media reports tonight not so rosy on its liklihood. 160 million for two basement floors. I think people are starting to think through this one through a bit more. people are reading what little fine print there is

[Empire]

Howard Epstein shows his true colours. Except for the Marriott Courtyard, the buildings that Epstein lauds are cheap and ugly. Here you have four small hotels consuming a lot of prime downtown land. If the Prince George site had been developed with double the density the design no doubt would have been better and large conventions could be attracted. The Cambridge Suite site would be better for residential/commercial. The hotels that Mr. Epstein lists are too small to accommodate larger conventions where all of the attendants want to stay in one hotel.


Against: Too big, too costly

By HOWARD EPSTEIN
Thu, Oct 14 - 5:53 PM

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/1206926.html

The city’s downtown needs development, but not this one. Human-scale projects work in the downtown. A lot have been built and are entirely successful (Prince George Hotel, the Marriott Courtyard, the Sheraton Four Point, the additions to Neptune Theatre, the Cambridge Suites).

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Buckey

The Hype phase is over and the thinking phase has begun. media reports tonight not so rosy on its liklihood. 160 million for two basement floors. I think people are starting to think through this one through a bit more. people are reading what little fine print there is

What do you think about the new Central Library? I doubt that there will be much income generated by that building. The number of jobs generated will likely be a few jobs per year at best. I am waiting to see this same organized opposition to the new Central Library since there is absolutely no business case for it to proceed - except that maybe the wingnuts don't oppose libraries ....

[Buckey]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

What do you think about the new Central Library? I doubt that there will be much income generated by that building. The number of jobs generated will likely be a few jobs per year at best. I am waiting to see this same organized opposition to the new Central Library since there is absolutely no business case for it to proceed - except that maybe the wingnuts don't oppose libraries ....

No I think Print is on the way out. I do not think a new libarary is needed at all. we have great libraries at Dal and SMU that should be open to the public. I heard they were open for students to study. IN my ten years there I think I stumbled across one once by mistake ( joke on my lack of good study habits)

I think in this age we need to think long and hard about books, Think pads and the like will be the rage as prices come down. My 70 year old mother uses one. You are correct a Library creates few jobs - neither does a rink but Rinks offset some of their operating costs. I am not sure if there are even any rinks left in Darkness ( dartmouth) .

Imagine somone even suggesting the CC in Dartmouth OMG the horror. but someday we gotta do somthing sexy with Shannon park.

EDIT after lookig over my post the only good thinga Libabrary might do is teach me to spell

[worldlyhaligonian]

This isn't a retail area, its more bars and restaurants. A fine dining restaurant in glass on the lower level south corner would be good.

Nothing could ever be as bad as the Herald Building, except an empty lot or squat building.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Buckey

No I think Print is on the way out. I do not think a new libarary is needed at all. we have great libraries at Dal and SMU that should be open to the public. I heard they were open for students to study. IN my ten years there I think I stumbled across one once by mistake ( joke on my lack of good study habits)

I think in this age we need to think long and hard about books, Think pads and the like will be the rage as prices come down. My 70 year old mother uses one. You are correct a Library creates few jobs - neither does a rink but Rinks offset some of their operating costs. I am not sure if there are even any rinks left in Darkness ( dartmouth) .

Imagine somone even suggesting the CC in Dartmouth OMG the horror. but someday we gotta do somthing sexy with Shannon park.

EDIT after lookig over my post the only good thinga Libabrary might do is teach me to spell

No, you don't put a Convention Centre in Dartmouth. Especially not on Shannon Park where they will have no place to spend their money. The purpose is to get people to come to the city, spend money and want to come back - this is the reason for putting it close to the Public Gardens, Halifax Citadel, Historic Properties, Maritime Museum of the Atlantic, Historic Properties, restaurants, hotels, etc. Apparently you have been reading other threads on this forum and you believe that you can generate some disruption by mentioning Shannon Park - people on this forum aren't that stupid (a Convention Centre is meant to generate jobs, I doubt that people are going to argue that it should be at Shannon Park).

The provincial and federal governments are spending $15,000 - $20,000 per people to support people without jobs. If we work out the numbers; $15,000, for every 1000 unemployed group of people equals $15 million per year. Multiply this by 25 years = $375,000,000 (that's $375 million dollars for every 1000 people to do nothing for 25 years). In Nova Scotia, there are currently 45.5 thousand unempolyed people (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/101008/t101008a3-eng.htm). So over 25 years that will be $375 million dollars/thousand-people times 45.5 thousand people = $17,062 million dollars (that's $17 billion dollars for all the unemployed in Nova Scotia for 25 years; if you factor in indexed-annual-cost-of-living increases then it becomes even more staggering). I am not opposed to people who are unemployed, but I have an strong distrust for people with secure jobs such as Howard Epstein, Phil Pacey, etc. who are paid very well and spend much of their time opposing jobs for Nova Scotians. Their arguments that tourists travel to Halifax to see the view from the Citadel is just hilarious to me (but nauseating). People can go to see millions of square miles of land throughout Canada with a view, instead they seem to prefer going to interesting cities. So send the heritage wingnuts out to the deserted parts of Canada and leave the cities for city-lovers.

I would rather have a government that stands up to these organized anti-development groups, and a government that makes an effort to create jobs. Nova Scotia needs a strong-willed government that won't cave in to the organized pressure from these fringe groups. If the NDP will show the backbone to stand up to these groups then they will earn the respect of thousands of people in the HRM who are fed up with these do-nothing to create jobs but oppose-everything groups.



PS: P-3 private-public construction methods do not necessarily mean that the private company will own the facility at the end of the 25 year term. Since the financing terms haven't be finalized, no one can say for certainty who will own the facility at the end of 25 years. Here is a good description of P-3 partnerships and the benefits (usually it is more efficient) http://www.azdot.gov/highways/Projects/Public_Private_Partnerships/FAQ.asp . The link is for Arizona but the concept is used worldwide.

[Keith P.]

The Herald is reporting that the utterly useless NDP MP for Halifax, Megan Leslie, opposes the CC project. Isn't that special.

She is a clone of Howard Epstein in terms of policies so that is not surprising.

Of course, perhaps her being opposed to the project will make it easier for the Harper govt to support it.

[MonctonRad]

So what's up with der Kommissar Howard (the duck).........

He seems like a complete rogue agent now. He has shown his true colours and appears to be actually leading the opposition to the new convention centre!

Whatever happened to the party whip? Doesn't the NDP realize the potential damage to their party of having significant internal dissention on this issue?

Halifax after all is the NDP's citadel, its bastion...........if the party doesn't present a unified front on a significant issue affecting it's main base of support, then it really risks a major defeat at the next election.

Of course, it doesn't affect me.......I don't even live in the province and I tend to be a Tory but I find this entire scenario fascinating.

Dexter has to muzzle der Kommissar quickly, or else kick him out of caucus.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The Herald is reporting that the utterly useless NDP MP for Halifax, Megan Leslie, opposes the CC project. Isn't that special.

She is a clone of Howard Epstein in terms of policies so that is not surprising.

Of course, perhaps her being opposed to the project will make it easier for the Harper govt to support it.

Actually I will be curious to hear more details about her comments. If what she is really meaning is that she is part of the "It's too tall" crowd, then I will write her off.

However, taken purely at face value her comments are actually fair. She doesn't say she is against it, she just says that she is only for it if there is public input.

"I believe in the argument that our current convention centre does not meet Halifax’s needs," she said.

"I do have some pretty serious concerns about the location of this proposed new convention centre. I want to take the time to review the proposal properly. However, at this very initial stage, I believe that any federal funding must be contingent on civic engagement on the design."

(above quoted from the Herald article)

That is actually a fair comment about the lack on public engagement.
I think you would find far fewer people nervous about spending this money of they felt like there was public consultation in the process of it. I thought it was great that the government released the business cases etc that were done by the external consultants, but you have to admit that it likely gets people's back hairs up when the public was not asked for input on the site or the design.

THAT I think is a fair criticism. But, like I said, if she is simply hiding behind that as an alternative to outright siding with the HT folks, then I think she is wrong. To be honest, it is clearly too late to have major public input, and there is nothing much that can be done now, but that speaks to the fact that this was a decidedly flawed process and was handled badly. There is never ever uniformity in a decision, but people will always on average feel more comfortable with the government spending money when they feel like it meets THEIR needs rather than the governments needs. And without public input to the process, no matter what the final decision, it is hard for people to feel that way.

I would note as well that that is hardly a NDPer feeling... if you read the comment sections on the paper the vast majority of the people who are saying that their tax money should not be spent on this are identifying as non-NDP supporters.

[fenwick16]

If Premier Dexter is able to get the convention centre built he will prove to many that he is the right man for the job. If not then I have serious concerns that Halifax will be held back by all the fringe do-nothing groups for another 20 - 30 years. It would be so great to see these do-nothings walking around with a pout on their faces as the convention centre is being built. (it would be even better to see them going to the convention centre looking for a job after the next election).

[Buckey]

#1 No I am not reading many other threads here. My comment on Shannon park was I think something could go there. NO I dont think a convention center should be there. I actually like the location for the convention center. I would prefer a lowrise on the water but that is wishful thinking.

And yes the current proposal if approved as is is that RANK owns it and we lease it for 25 years. Yes we get two floors of that two tower project and pay 157 MM of the 500 MM take a look at the pics and ask ift hat is proportional?

and whomever questioned the $47 MM up front. I think some folks have not read through the proposals. There is no money due until 2014 upon completion and at that time the Feds kick in $47 MM and we start our lease payments of $110 MM over 25 years at $11 MM per year and $2MM oper year maintenance.

So we pay 1/3 of the mortgage and get 1/10th of the building for 25 years and at the end he owns the entire building. I made up that 1/10th as that is an eyeball number.

YES I REALIZE THAT NOTHING IS SET IN STONE BUT I AM COMMENTING ON THE PROPOSAL AS IT APPEARS NOW AS BEST AS ONE CAN FIGURE OUT WITH THE FUZZY INFORMATION AND MISREPORTING.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Buckey

#1 No I am not reading many other threads here. My comment on Shannon park was I think something could go there. NO I dont think a convention center should be there. I actually like the location for the convention center. I would prefer a lowrise on the water but that is wishful thinking.

And yes the current proposal if approved as is is that RANK owns it and we lease it for 25 years. Yes we get two floors of that two tower project and pay 157 MM of the 500 MM take a look at the pics and ask ift hat is proportional?

and whomever questioned the $47 MM up front. I think some folks have not read through the proposals. There is no money due until 2014 upon completion and at that time the Feds kick in $47 MM and we start our lease payments of $110 MM over 25 years at $11 MM per year and $2MM oper year maintenance.

So we pay 1/3 of the mortgage and get 1/10th of the building for 25 years and at the end he owns the entire building. I made up that 1/10th as that is an eyeball number.

YES I REALIZE THAT NOTHING IS SET IN STONE BUT I AM COMMENTING ON THE PROPOSAL AS IT APPEARS NOW AS BEST AS ONE CAN FIGURE OUT WITH THE FUZZY INFORMATION AND MISREPORTING.

It is not a lack of understanding on my part - if you read your last statement, there is the answer - the NDP can still decide to fund differently - with no payments until 2014 or only pay $47 million during construction plus 2.9 million per year. The NDP can still choose the cheaper option (each level of government paying $47 million as construction proceeds). But it is not what you stated previously - $50 million up front and capital lease payments of $15 million (your numbers stated in post 1521) starting in 2014. It is either one or the other!

I think that you are trying to demonize Rank Inc. when in fact the payment option was chosen by the NDP. Here is a post from hfxtradesman who had inside information back on July 8 2010 (post 1065).

(source: post 1065 - http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=148136&page=54 )

#1065 Report Post
Old 07-08-2010, 09:06 PM
hfxtradesman

Well here is the latest this week. Doesn't it show you how fast things can change when there is a gov. involved. ESPECIALLY OURS.
But anyway, the gov. wants higher concessions(for what i don't know),which makes this a higher risk for investors, which puts the price of the project up. The final price will go in on time but it might collapse in the end, cause the price will be too high: You can try and figure it out yourself

I think this was likely when the NDP government asked for the no-payments until 2014 which will result in an extra interim financing charge of $19 million so that the convention centre cost is now being quoted as $159 million instead of $140 million dollars. It is costing an extra 19 million to delay all payments until the year 2014.

The other concern that you stated - that Rank will own it in the end; this would be open to negotiation which has not been finalized.

[Buckey]

OK I think i follow you know. I am tired of this.