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  #421  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2010, 9:57 PM
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I'm totally against because it just seems like a nuisance: it block ESB views but still isn't as tall as it. I would much rather have a much taller skyscraper than the ESB. So you would have ESB and then the tallest building in NYC. The makers of the ESB wouldn't think that that 70 yrs from then that a building would be built right up against and NOT be taller. It is just an annoyance to the ESB if it isn't bigger or better.
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  #422  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2010, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by evanmack View Post
I'm totally against because it just seems like a nuisance: it block ESB views but still isn't as tall as it. I would much rather have a much taller skyscraper than the ESB. So you would have ESB and then the tallest building in NYC. The makers of the ESB wouldn't think that that 70 yrs from then that a building would be built right up against and NOT be taller. It is just an annoyance to the ESB if it isn't bigger or better.
those its practical and direly needed in the area. really people are so hard to please,people on this sight complain about Dubai and China having bigger buildings though when we get one that is allowed to be slithered in to our city theres still complaints.jeez people should make up their minds. (btw this is not directed just toward you)
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  #423  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2010, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by evanmack View Post
I'm totally against because it just seems like a nuisance: it block ESB views but still isn't as tall as it. I would much rather have a much taller skyscraper than the ESB. So you would have ESB and then the tallest building in NYC. The makers of the ESB wouldn't think that that 70 yrs from then that a building would be built right up against and NOT be taller. It is just an annoyance to the ESB if it isn't bigger or better.
It may not seem visually normal only because the ESB has been a standalone for so many years. But then you look at buildings like Chrysler, 70 Pine and 40 Wall; all admirable buildings for historical height, yet have been developed around. You cannot halt and shy away from development for the sake of aspects that are so far removed from practical purpose. The city will continue to develop itself for the purpose of filling needs from all angles. Embrace the concept because this will certainly be the beginning of things to come for that area. Not an issue by any stretch of the imagination.
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  #424  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 1:44 AM
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  #425  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 2:37 AM
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The nimby legislations and regulations have unfortunately sculpted New York's once great skyline of peaks and valleys into a tabletop effect of 750ft, leaving it much a shadow of its former glory.

Taller buildings must be allowed to rise and by doing so, the great scale of vertical diversity will be restored.
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  #426  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 11:57 AM
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How is it that Vornado gets to build this 1,200 footer about 900 feet away from the ESB, while Hines gets the nix on its similarly-scaled Tower Verre project way up on 54th St. because it somehow encroaches on the ESB's "iconic spire"? Does that rationale even withstand scrutiny now if PennPlaza goes forward as planned?
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  #427  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 12:46 PM
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I'm OK with a 1,200 footer there, but this thing is modeled after the tallest in... New Jersey!
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  #428  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by wrabbit View Post
How is it that Vornado gets to build this 1,200 footer about 900 feet away from the ESB, while Hines gets the nix on its similarly-scaled Tower Verre project way up on 54th St. because it somehow encroaches on the ESB's "iconic spire"? Does that rationale even withstand scrutiny now if PennPlaza goes forward as planned?
That's true.
Tower verre is even much less massive, only sightly taller.
In a perfect world, both towers would be approved with no fuss.
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  #429  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 1:02 PM
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After seeing both pics NYguy posted...

...I can't help feel as if ESB is bitching for nothing. Eventually ESB is gonna have more several-hundred-foot-tall skyscrapers on it's doorstep, so eventually it has to live with the fact that it's days of absoulutely dominating the midtown skyline are long gone. I still hope it's the tallest in the skyline for another century or 2, though.
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  #430  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 1:17 PM
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Originally Posted by wrabbit View Post
How is it that Vornado gets to build this 1,200 footer about 900 feet away from the ESB, while Hines gets the nix on its similarly-scaled Tower Verre project way up on 54th St. because it somehow encroaches on the ESB's "iconic spire"? Does that rationale even withstand scrutiny now if PennPlaza goes forward as planned?
If you go all the way back to that thread, is has to do with the design of Tower Verre's top not being complete at the time of approvals, and Amanda Burden (city planning head) not liking it. It wasn't so much the height of that tower as it was the design of the top, which is to house mechanical space. That being said, the spire of the Empire State is not as great as the Chrysler's. With all of the crap they've put on the spire these days, it's not as great as it once was.

Anyway, the issue has morphed beyond whether or not the Hotel Pennsylvania should be saved, or whether or not there should be taller buildings in Midtown. It has to do with architects and the freedom to design skyscrapers in the city free of any direct impact from politicians. Zoning regulations already have an indirect impact, but it's a whole new ballgame if it comes down to the "taste" of elected officials or others. It also has to do with whether of not the skyline should be frozen in time. (Who are we to say people a hundred years from now should see it just the way we see it? We won't be around, that's for sure.)

___________________________________


Its good to see both the New York Post and the Daily News agree on this issue in their editorials today:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/editorials/new_york_living_skyline_GO4p1yjsy81Dze1k4du8zI
New York's living skyline

August 24, 2010

Quote:
Should the New York City skyline be forever -- like a bug cast in amber?

Of course not.

Yet the City Council is being asked to freeze that glorious vista in time -- by blocking Vornado Realty Trust from proceeding with a 1,200-foot skyscraper adjacent to Penn Station.

Vornado, according to Empire State Building owner Andrew Malkin, seeks to endanger the unique place in the Midtown skyline enjoyed by his building since 1931. And, at a scant 34 feet shorter than the Empire State Building, the proposal designated as 15 Penn Plaza stands to do just that.

Too bad.

Malkin needs to get over it.

This isn't an endorsement of the Vornado project per se. Given the torturous New York City project-review process, it's hard to say what the building ultimately will look like.

But it most certainly is a rejection of Malkin's bizarre assertion that his skyscraper deserves such protection.

It's NIMBY-ism gone mad.

Skylines do change. Alas, sometimes for tragic reasons -- as seen on 9/11.

But mostly for positive ones.

Great cities are organic -- vibrantly reflecting the aspirations of the people who live in them.

Vornado's willingness to invest in a Midtown office tower in such unsettling economic times is, frankly, exciting.


It's a vote of confidence from a developer that New York's future remains bright -- that the city will continue to attract successful businesses wanting offices in the heart of Manhattan.

Conceptually, this one is a no-brainer.

We're confident that the City Council is smart enough to see it that way.


________________________________________________


http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/08/24/2010-08-24_able_to_leap_tall_buildings.html
Able to leap tall buildings: Midtown rival to Empire State must stand or fall on own merits

August 24, 2010

Quote:
The owner of the Empire State Building - he of Mother Teresa fame - is urging the City Council to veto a midtown office tower project on the ground it would diminish his property's standing as a New York icon.

Nice try, but this is preposterous.

Since the invention of the electric elevator more than a century ago, the city's silhouette has been made and remade, with buildings gaining dominance only to be overshadowed with the ascent of new attention-getters.


So it is today, even for the grand old marvel of the Empire State. Heck, if the skyline were sacrosanct, the 57-story Woolworth Building across the street from City Hall - the tallest in the world in 1913 - would still be the tallest in New York.

And Anthony Malkin would not be Lord of the Empire State because, well, it would not exist.

There are opposing ways to see Manhattan's jagged rises and falls: as the past written in steel and glass, and as the precursor to a dynamic future.

Granting him all good faith, Malkin is attempting to stand athwart progress, as futile an endeavor as there ever could be. That he does so with grandiosity is only to be expected from a man who owns - and lights as he sees fit - New York's most world-renowned address.

He is calling on the City Council to refuse zoning variances sought by megadeveloper Steve Roth, who owns the Pennsylvania Hotel, across Seventh Ave. from Madison Square Garden, and proposes to replace the dowdy overnighter with a 1,216-foot-tall office tower.

Malkin protests that, located on roughly the same latitude, Roth's building would claim some of the Empire State's airborne glory. From some perspectives, yes. From some, no. Such is life.

The Council should shrug off his attempt to determine whether a skyscraper should go up based on how it would look in a postcard of the Empire State Building. That said, the Council needs to closely measure Roth's plans using a more mundane yardstick: money. He wants to trade transit improvements for a boost in the normally allowed scale of the tower. The Council must determine, in a transparent manner, that the cost and benefits of the transit investments merit the zoning bonanza.

His plan calls for building subway entrances on Seventh and Sixth Aves., installing or improving stairways, widening subway platforms and putting in elevators and escalators. Roth would also reopen a pedestrian passage that crosses underground from Seventh to Sixth, the Gimbels Tunnel.

Closed in the 1980s, the passage would be a shopping strip that relieves sidewalk crowding and provides climate-controlled movement all year.

All big pluses. But, as the community board concluded, most of the improvements would be necessary or beneficial to Roth's two moneymaking propositions: the new building and the Manhattan Mall. The planning commission ruled that Roth's transit investments justified a zoning bonus. The Council needs to be sure.
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  #431  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 1:34 PM
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http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/mother_of_all_snubs_WakiP8COjXH9Bo72a4md8K
Teresa haunts Empire State in plea to pols



By SALLY GOLDENBERG
August 24, 2010

Quote:
Call it Mother Teresa's revenge.

The owners of the Empire State Building -- who created an uproar by refusing to illuminate their building to honor the saintly nun -- got a chilly reception yesterday in the City Council when they showed up needing a favor.

Empire State Building President Anthony Malkin went on bended knee asking the council's Zoning Subcommittee to block or change a planned development nearby that he considers skyline competition.

In the last-minute effort, Malkin asked the committee to reject a bid for easements and other zoning changes to make way for a 1,216-foot-tall tower.

He proposed that the project, 15 Penn Plaza, be no more than 825 feet high, making it about two-thirds of its original proposed size. He also asked that it be shaped so that it minimally obscures the view from the western side of the Empire State Building

Vornado Realty Trust, headed by New York division President David Greenbaum, wants to knock down Hotel Pennsylvania on Seventh Avenue and replace it with a building 34 feet shorter than the Empire State Building, which stands at 1,250 feet.

Those involved in private negotiations between Malkin and the council said the Mother Teresa situation was hanging over the talks.

"Immediately, I said to myself, when I was sitting there, this is Mr. Malkin who is refusing to light up for Mother Teresa," said Councilman James Vacca (D-Bronx), who sits on the subcommittee.

"His refusal to light up for Mother Teresa is wrong, but I will consider his testimony on the merits," Vacca continued.

One source close to negotiations said Council Speaker Christine Quinn (D-Manhattan), who led the fight against Malkin over Mother Teresa, was cool to him during talks.

"There's no love lost between those two parties," the source said.

Quinn, through a spokeswoman, said Malkin's land-use request "has absolutely zero connection to anything but the merits of the development."

The full City Council is scheduled to vote on the project tomorrow. Thursday marks what would have been the 100th birthday of Mother Teresa and the day when the Empire State Building has rejected requests to light up the building in blue and white.

Malkin, who claims he's sticking to a policy of not honoring religious or political figures, shrugged off the suggestion that his Mother Teresa refusal could hurt his chances of getting the council on his side.

"I hardly think that anyone would sit there and say, 'You know what, let's screw over the people of New York City, the people of the US and the international iconography of New York City because of one guy who we think is a jerk,' " Malkin said after the hearing.
_______________________________________


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/index.html

Curse of Mother Teresa? Empire State Building battling bedbugs, rival office tower

Michael Daly
August 24th 2010

Quote:
The City Council's subcommittee on zoning and franchises hearing was about to start and the owner of the Empire State Building was sitting in the back of the room, dapper in a tan suit, smart phone in hand.

He seemed not at all like a man under a curse.

"I looked for you in Southampton yesterday," said another guy in a suit.

"I left around 1 o'clock," Tony Malkin said. "Gillibrand was going to be there."

He clearly meant U.S. Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand, who just as clearly is not one of his favorites.

The woman he really should worry about is the one he slighted by refusing to light the Empire State Building in her honor.

The building has been lit in honor of everybody from Mariah Carey to the Grateful Dead. It was green for the 70th anniversary of the Wizard of Oz, but for reasons of his own Malkin declared there was to be no blue and white on Aug. 26, marking the 100th anniversary of Mother Teresa's birth.

Of course, there is not really any such thing as a curse. The Curse of the Bambino was surely just a prolonged string of coincidental misfortunes that had no causal link with the Boston Red Sox trading Babe Ruth.

So, it probably only seems that Malkin and the Empire State Building are under the Curse of the Mama.

It is surely just a coincidence that as Mother Teresa's centenary approaches Malkin finds himself faced with the prospect of a rival office tower so close by that from some angles people will be barely able to see his building at all, much less what color it is lit.

"A staggering 1,200-foot office building to be constructed only blocks away from the Empire State Building," Malkin's website says of the structure just 25 feet shorter than his.

On the floor by Malkin's polished shoes were copies of a Photoshop rendering intended to show how the proposed tower would alter the skyline. The image also shows how it could diminish the Empire State Building, making Malkin's property look less iconic than antiquated.

At least the twin towers were twin. These would just be a couple of towers.

That was only part of the Curse of the Mama. Malkin got a reminder of the rest when a dreaded word jumped out of something another guy in a suit was muttering to him. The word always seems shouted.

"BEDBUGS!"

Yep, along with a 1,200-foot challenge, Malkin is also facing a barely visible pest found in his majestic tower's basement.

Imagine King Kong battling not just airplanes but the dreaded pests whose very mention sends people hurrying away!

And who is going to want to pay $34.45 to go to the top of a building that has bedbugs and gaze out from an observatory no higher than a tower just two blocks over?

One of the world's most dramatics view could become the world's most dramatic air shafts.

Anyway, I was glad Malkin was not itching Monday, mainly because I was sitting next to him.

He's hardly your typical owner of a building with bedbugs as he got up in his dapper suit and addressed the subcommittee. He argued against the new tower and the marring of the skyline at least as convincingly as the developer argued for the tower and the jobs it could generate.

After the hearing, Malkin lost a chance to say he'd changed his mind and that the Empire State Building would join Times Square, Brooklyn Borough Hall and the Intrepid in going blue and white for Mother Teresa on Thursday.

He instead said the building will be lit up in red, as well as blue and white, to mark the anniversary of women's suffrage.

He was fighting Mama with Mamas, but there was the matter of BEDBUGS!

_____________________________

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010..._to_turn_down_proposed_15_penn_plaz.html
Empire State Building owner begs City Council to turn down proposed 15 Penn Plaza skyscraper

BY Frank Lombardi, Ryan Strong and Larry Mcshane
August 23rd 2010

Quote:
The company behind the project argued the new construction would create much-needed office space in midtown - along with 7,000 new jobs and a $3.3 billion economic impact.

And, company officials said, adding to the glittering array of Manhattan towers is part of the city's ever-evolving allure.

"The fact is that New York's skyline has never stopped changing, and one hopes it never will," said David Greenbaum, head of the New York office of Vornado Realty Trust.

The new skyscraper hopes to provide "a world-class headquarters" for a financial industry firm, though discussions with potential tenants are still in preliminary stages.

Malkin proposed cutting the height by the building from its proposed 1,216 feet to 825 feet, and asked for a change in its shape to keep it from blocking the Empire State's western side.

Greenbaum flatly rejected taking anything off the top: "There's no consideration to that."

The two sides sparred over whether the sleek, state-of-the-art skyscraper would obscure some spectacular views of the 80-year-old tourist attraction.

"Substantially, all of these views are fully intact and fully preserved," Greenbaum said.
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  #432  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 2:12 PM
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I hope they built it! I wish it would be taller than 1,250'
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  #433  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 2:33 PM
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from NY magazine

Quote:
Is the Empire State Building As Special As It Thinks It Is?

With the amount of controversy greeting the proposed construction of 15 Penn Plaza, you would think Muslims wanted to pray inside of it. But actually, 15 Penn Plaza is being vigorously opposed by the owners of the Empire State Building because it's so close, and so tall, that it will allegedly ruin New York's skyline, in which the Empire State Building is presently the undisputed centerpiece. The building, which Vornado Realty Trust hopes to get final approval for from the City Council tomorrow, would sit only 900 feet away, and rise nearly as high.

You can see in the renderings above how each side envisions the future of the skyline. In Vornado's, each tower is clearly visible in all its illuminated splendor. Co-existence, hooray! But in the Empire State Building's, it's like 15 Penn Plaza has obliviously and obnoxiously lumbered in front of the Empire State Building while you were taking a photo. "Um, excuse me, sir — sir? — you are right in our way."

Obviously, both are accurate from their respective angles. But the owners of the Empire State Building don't want to be blocked from any angle. "It’s all about the iconography of the New York skyline and whether it matters to people or not," Anthony Malkin said yesterday. In fact, Malkin wants a "17-block no-go zone" protecting the Empire State Building from any similarly giant structures. On the flip side are people, like Vornado's David R. Greenbaum, who insist "New York’s skyline has never stopped changing, and one hopes it never will." The Post in an editorial today also points out that, in this economy, if someone wants to build an enormous office tower, we really shouldn't try to dissuade them.

By: Dan Amira
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/08/the_empire_state_building_thin.html
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  #434  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 2:35 PM
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Originally Posted by OneWorldTradeCenter View Post
I hope they built it! I wish it would be taller than 1,250'
Hopefully the council doesn't do something silly, like adding a spire to make it appear differently on the skyline.

What's been missing from the conversation is the impact all of the other west side towers would have on the skyline. But I can see that wasn't forgotten in the model that was presented...


Here, you can see the Emire State, 15 Penn Plaza, and the Manhattan West complex (also topping out at 1,216 ft)...







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  #435  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 2:38 PM
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actually it looks like they added the entire Hudson yards
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  #436  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 2:58 PM
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actually it looks like they added the entire Hudson yards
Some of it. They left out the Girasole and some of the other towers. Even the Penn East and West towers are left out.
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  #437  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 3:06 PM
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Quote:
New York's living skyline


Should the New York City skyline be forever -- like a bug cast in amber?
Of course not.
Yet the City Council is being asked to freeze that glorious vista in time -- by blocking Vornado Realty Trust from proceeding with a 1,200-foot skyscraper adjacent to Penn Station.
Vornado, according to Empire State Building owner Andrew Malkin, seeks to endanger the unique place in the Midtown skyline enjoyed by his building since 1931. And, at a scant 34 feet shorter than the Empire State Building, the proposal designated as 15 Penn Plaza stands to do just that.

REUTERS

Too bad.
Malkin needs to get over it.
This isn't an endorsement of the Vornado project per se. Given the torturous New York City project-review process, it's hard to say what the building ultimately will look like.
But it most certainly is a rejection of Malkin's bizarre assertion that his skyscraper deserves such protection.
It's NIMBY-ism gone mad.
Skylines do change. Alas, sometimes for tragic reasons -- as seen on 9/11.
But mostly for positive ones.
Great cities are organic -- vibrantly reflecting the aspirations of the people who live in them.
Vornado's willingness to invest in a Midtown office tower in such unsettling economic times is, frankly, exciting.
It's a vote of confidence from a developer that New York's future remains bright -- that the city will continue to attract successful businesses wanting offices in the heart of Manhattan.
Conceptually, this one is a no-brainer.
We're confident that the City Council is smart enough to see it that way.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/editorials/new_york_living_skyline_GO4p1yjsy81Dze1k4du8zI
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  #438  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 3:06 PM
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Thank god for more renderings...
http://www.archpaper.com/e-board_rev.asp?News_ID=4786



Vornado showed this rendering at today's meeting, comparing its tower (center right) to Hudson Yards, Penn West, and the Empire State Building,
to make the case that it is not the only project reshaping lower Midtown.



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  #439  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 3:17 PM
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great renderings! this tower will look amazing on the skyline,though i just wish accurate renderings would be released for the Hudson yards...
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  #440  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 3:22 PM
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Originally Posted by SkyscrapersOfNewYork View Post
great renderings! this tower will look amazing on the skyline,though i just wish accurate renderings would be released for the Hudson yards...
Maybe within the next couple of years we'll get to see something for the railyards. In the meantime, though a little rough this is as close
as we have gotten for some of the west side's new development...(some MSG towers would look nice here... )








From the archpaper article...
http://www.archpaper.com/e-board_rev.asp?News_ID=4786

Quote:
by Matt Chaban

...Greenbaum said that the Malkins were being hypocritical when they suggested that a development on the Farley Post Office, one block away, would be acceptable, but not on the Hotel Pennsylvania site. “If one takes that to its logical extreme, any building will impact the skyline of New York City,” he said, adding that abiding by the Malkins’ suggestion to limit heights within 2,000 feet of the Empire State Building would essentially kill development between 42nd Street and 23rd Street.

To bolster this argument, and beat back the renderings Malkin released last week that have been making a stir online, Vornado created their own, showing their tower in relation to Hudson Yards, Penn West, and the Empire State Building. The developers also showed a photo of the Chrysler Building around the time of its completion and one from today, arguing that none of the city’s icons remain sacred. Rafael Pelli, the tower’s designer, pointed out that western views of the building are already obscured by new development, which will only grow.

Pelli spoke to AN about the tower during a lull in the meeting, saying that it is actually much slimmer than the Malkins suggest, given its sloping sides, the modern equivalent of setbacks, the architect said. With a top two-thirds the size of the building’s largest floors, Pelli maintains that his building is not much bulkier than its nearby neighbor. “New office buildings are fundamentally different than traditional officer buildings, so the form will be different and the scale will be different, and typically that means a bigger building,” Pelli said. As for aesthetic, much remains to be worked out, but the architect pointed to two of his firm’s best known works, the Petronas Tower in Kula Lampoor and the International Finance Center in Hong Kong.

Testimony for and against the project fell on both sides of the debate, with Madison Square Garden and the 34th Street Partnership among those favoring Vornado, while one member of the latter group and a number of local business owners—as well as a contingent of hackers—opposed the project. Henry Stern, the former councilman and Parks Department commissioner, also showed up to speak out against it. “The city allowed Penn Station to be destroyed, the World Trade Center was tragically destroyed—I think we should save whatever landmarks we have left,” Stern said.

The subcommittee members expressed considerable ambivalence about the project, wary about its size and impact on the skyline, but also noting the need to remain competitive with other financial centers around the world. Leroy Comrie, the influential Queens councilman who chairs the Land-Use Committee, seemed to encapsulate these feelings when he challenged Malkin about his position.

“I think what you’re asking us to do is beyond any one project,” Comrie said. “You’re asking us to make a policy decision. You’re asking us to look at many things beyond this one project.” His tone was severe, suggesting at once that such a policy was needed, but also that he was neither prepared nor even interested in formulating it at this point.
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Last edited by NYguy; Aug 24, 2010 at 3:38 PM.
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