Atlanta Beltline

[Fiorenza]

BD,

So you're a protectionist? How does that work?

[BabydaddyATL]

Originally Posted by Fiorenza

BD,

So you're a protectionist? How does that work?

No, as long as our trading partners are not.

[Fiorenza]

When it comes to retaliation the devil is in the details.

[BabydaddyATL]

Originally Posted by Fiorenza

When it comes to retaliation the devil is in the details.

You are for the Iraq war, but are concerned about the repercussion of asking our trading partners to have a level playing field? You have got to be kidding me Fiorenza?

[BabydaddyATL]

Originally Posted by MarketsWork

No, that's not what I believe. I don't believe anybody truly and consistently considers the greater good as opposed to their own interests -- and that includes bureaucrats as well as businesspeople. But I do believe that the free market, with its rewards and punishments, is the single greatest instrument of greater good. Government's proper and necessary role is the ensure a level playing field and adherence to the rule of law, but not to prescribe outcomes.



In fact, I was and still am a Home Depot shareholder -- and I didn't like Nardelli or the smelly deal that he left with. But while I am angry with the directors who made that deal, it wasn't illegal. The ultimate fault lies with the shareholders who (like I did) voted for that slate of directors. But I've been a HD shareholder for a long time, and have a much longer view than just the Nardelli years.

MarketsWork - I just don't agree with your logic. Government in theory should have enough oversight to build laws and regulations that are for the good of the people. It is not the mission of free markets or companies to do the good of the people, IT IS TO MAXIMIZE PROFITS.

[MarketsWork]

Originally Posted by BabydaddyATL

MarketsWork - I just don't agree with your logic. Government in theory should have enough oversight to build laws and regulations that are for the good of the people. It is not the mission of free markets or companies to do the good of the people, IT IS PROFITS.

I have no disagreement with any part of your last statement. My problem with government involvement in the marketplace comes when it steps beyond its proper role of traffic cop and instead tries to coerce specific outcomes.

[BabydaddyATL]

Originally Posted by MarketsWork

I have no disagreement with any part of your last statement. My problem with government involvement in the marketplace comes when it steps beyond its proper role of traffic cop and instead tries to coerce specific outcomes.

Kind of the same way businesses lobby the government to coerce specific outcomes. Both should be outlawed.

[Fiorenza]

You are for the Iraq war, but are concerned about the repercussion of asking our trading partners to have a level playing field? You have got to be kidding me Fiorenza?

I fail to see the inconsistency. I'm just saying the devil is in the details. We've already been "asking" - that doesn't cut it. We've also made retaliations. Have they been strong enough? You can ask Obama what he'd do with retaliation, but careful that he doesn't backtrack like he did on NAFTA - twice! OK, I'm staying away from the silly season BS.

I'll tell you this, the US as constituted has greatly benefited from unfettered free trade. Now, I can imagine a "utopia" where there's a quota in effect to equalize trade with each trading partner so that imports equals exports to each partner. However, I don't think you'd especially like the result. The US has in the last 30 years or so been in the enviable position of being able to export paper dollars and Hollywood kitsch in return for hard goods of real value. Not a bad deal for US.

[BabydaddyATL]

Originally Posted by Fiorenza

I fail to see the inconsistency. I'm just saying the devil is in the details. We've already been "asking" - that doesn't cut it. We've also made retaliations. Have they been strong enough? You can ask Obama what he'd do with retaliation, but careful that he doesn't backtrack like he did on NAFTA - twice! OK, I'm staying away from the silly season BS.

I'll tell you this, the US as constituted has greatly benefited from unfettered free trade. Now, I can imagine a "utopia" where there's a quota in effect to equalize trade with each trading partner so that imports equals exports to each partner. However, I don't think you'd especially like the result. The US has in the last 30 years or so been in the enviable position of being able to export paper dollars and Hollywood kitsch in return for hard goods of real value. Not a bad deal for US.

The devil is not it the details it's in their trade agreements. We take their trade agreement, in this example China, everywhere it says China - we insert US. If they don't agree we have a trade war. They have more to lose than we do.

"I'll tell you this, the US as constituted has greatly benefited from unfettered free trade." This is BS Fiorenza. The top 5% in the US have benefited from these agreements. The workers that have lost their jobs have not.

[Fiorenza]

everywhere it says China - we insert US

Trade agreements don't work that way. You could do it, but wouldn't have the desired effect - certain clauses are designed to benefit one party or other. It would have to be a matter of inserting or deleting clauses. You could argue that the agreements were not effectively negotiated, but that's a different argument.

The top 5% in the US have benefited from these agreements.

I would argue that consumers have benefited. Union workers who lose their jobs have not benefited, because they have to go from $70/hr to $20/hr.

[BabydaddyATL]

Originally Posted by Fiorenza

I would argue that consumers have benefited. Union workers who lose their jobs have not benefited, because they have to go from $70/hr to $20/hr.

What has the CEO's/Asset Owner's pay done in this period? Oh, I forgot, just because they have status, they deserve to make millions and billions.

Fiorenza, we are going to see class warfare like you have never seen in the near future. The top 5% made their money at the expense of or on the backs of the bottom 60% and they are going to rise up. I will sit there and cheer them. For the record, and I am not saying this to brag, I am in the top 5% so I should have a vested interest in the status quo. I see how wrong we are treating the American worker and I want it changed.

[BabydaddyATL]

Fiorenza -right now I am watching CNN laughing my ass off. Budweiser is being acquired by a Belgium brewer and CSX is being acquired by a British hedge fund. It looks like corporate America is claiming that foreign ownership will affect the security of our country. These are the same people that cheered the Bush Administration and the Federal Reserve. Now that the dollar is devaluing, US companies values are dropping like the prices at Wal-Mart. Sweet Justice as far as I am concerned!

[Fiorenza]

Welcome to the global economy baby! The 21st Century.

[BabydaddyATL]

Originally Posted by Fiorenza

Welcome to the global economy baby! The 21st Century.

Do you mean welcome to HYPOCRISY?

[Fiorenza]

Don't shoot me. I'm just the messenger.

[BabydaddyATL]

Originally Posted by Fiorenza

Don't shoot me. I'm just the messenger.

You see my point that these corporation seek the protection of the EVIL government when they are getting taken out by a foreign company, but god help the US worker for complaining to the Evil government about our jobs going offshore.
I guess MarketsWork was correct - free markets do work : Everyone gets screwed!!!

[dante2308]

Originally Posted by Fiorenza

Main issue I have is that the US doesn't "work" anymore. "Out of Many, One" is maybe not a good model. I think the Euros have lately attempted that same model and it doesn't seem to work very well for them either. Time will tell.

Various groups (whites, blacks, Islamics, etc) want to maintain their own identities while at the same time trying to game the most out of the system. My comment is not meant to be applied to the 2008 election campaign one way or another, it's just a comment.

The US doesn't work anymore? We are only 45 years out of jim crow and blatant oppression of minorities. What exactly is this working America you are saying is broken? Over the last five decades, women, Hispanics, and blacks have broken through every glass ceiling all because they were given the chance to succeed. All the while popular opinion of minorities and women have steadily improved to the point that national popularly elected offices are within reach of each of these groups.

Are you suggesting that we divide everyone up into their ethic groups and declare war? I don't understand here. I get that you are against multiracial cultures, but I'm not sure I see the destruction and devastation that proves that we aren't working together better every year.

The post civil rights generation just reached Obama's age and look what happened... What are you complaining about? You realize that our common success is advantageous to everyone right?

[Fiorenza]

You realize that our common success is advantageous to everyone right?

I see a top-heavy system here. Everybody expects to get more for less. They're envious of something they can't have just because they've seen it on TV or some politician has told them so. The communists had a saying in their lands, "everything is possible." Nothing is possible if individuals aren't allowed to operate and maximize their potential and be rewarded as individuals, not as a "class" or "special interest" with handouts, special privileges and jobs programs, thinking they don't have to bust their b**** to succeed. The government needs to open up the system and give everyone an equal shot. Limit corporate welfare, and long-term patents and licenses. Lower the barriers of entry to industries protected by government regulation. Clean up the tax code special provisions.

[BabydaddyATL]

Originally Posted by Fiorenza

I see a top-heavy system here. Everybody expects to get more for less. They're envious of something they can't have just because they've seen it on TV or some politician has told them so. The communists had a saying in their lands, "everything is possible." Nothing is possible if individuals aren't allowed to operate and maximize their potential and be rewarded as individuals, not as a "class" or "special interest" with handouts, special privileges and jobs programs, thinking they don't have to bust their b**** to succeed. The government needs to open up the system and give everyone an equal shot. Limit corporate welfare, and long-term patents and licenses. Lower the barriers of entry to industries protected by government regulation. Clean up the tax code special provisions.

I agree 100% with what you said. However, you do realize that some people need help? Generally speaking most people want to get up in the morning and earn a honest days living. I listen to my redneck, racist, Republican grandparents and they think every black person wants to sit around having babies, driving a Lexus and getting a welfare check. They honest to god believe that. Then I ask them, what color was the person at Wal-Mart checkout line?, "black," what color was the person at the Hardees drive through?, "black." Then shut up. And my favorite...How much did the government send you this year for not to farm your land? That really pisses them off.

[Fiorenza]

I have no problem with the government "helping" people with temporary grants and training, but not subsidizing them long-term. That applies to people in urban ghettos as well as wealthy farmers. The problem is, there is too much taxpayer money being wasted on permanent subsidies. The middle class in this country subsidizes the poor and the wealthy one way or another, and thus has no chance to build savings of its own.