Winnipeg | Perimeter Highway

[plrh]

Originally Posted by The Jabroni

Just for comparisons sake, how much was the full interchange redesign and construction for 101/59 from almost a decade ago, which of course involved 6 bridge spans and other things and at the time, also had a high price tag?

$204m according to google

[bryan_ca]

Maybe they should have gone "Regina bypass" on it and just done everything for "one low price" (haha), and maybe throw in the St. Norbert bypass. That project had 12 overpasses. Perimeter needs about that many (I didn't count).

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by Biff

The big thing about these projects and their overall cost is they seem to include massive amounts of road realignment/reconstruction. Most other cities would simply build a diamond overpass over the existing highway - $30-$50m and you are done.

I’m not really sure why they are creating such vast reconstructions.

Could it be to ensure design speed of 160 km/h? The current curve between PTH 2 and McGillivray on the Perimeter is definitely too sharp to allow for that.

IIRC the reconstruction around the Centreport interchange called for the Perimeter to have a design speed of 160 km/h, and you can tell the quality of the highway is drastically different and more modern than the segments that lead into it.

I don't remember reading 160km/h anywhere in the South Perimeter Design Study publications, but that might not be publicly shared since some media outlet would misinterpret it as speed limits being raised to 160 km/h.

The curve south of Fermor/100 is also softened in the proposed designs.

[The Jabroni]

Originally Posted by plrh

$204m according to google

Hmm, not too far off. Even adjusted for inflation, assuming that price tag at $204 million in 2017 ($257 million in 2025/2026), this new interchange at 3/100 would be $22 million dollars cheaper in comparison with today's money.

[craner]

Originally Posted by Highwayman

4 years to do this thays nuts. 2030 is a long way to completion. So that will take the St Annes one till 2034 lol

Why on earth would this work take 4 years to complete ?

[Dengler Avenue]

Something’s just occurred to me: what’s the slope profile of Perimeter Highway right now?
Back in the days, some roads were built with 0% slope on flat terrain. (Even MTO did that.) Nowadays, that’s a big no-no especially in floodprone area like Winnipeg.
If M.T.I. has to redo the slopes (from 0% to 0.5%), that will definitely add to the cost.

Admittedly my tone came off arrogant in an earlier post. My point is that there are more than what meets the eyes when it comes to accounting for ground condition.

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Something’s just occurred to me: what’s the slope profile of Perimeter Highway right now?
Back in the days, some roads were built with 0% slope on flat terrain. (Even MTO did that.) Nowadays, that’s a big no-no especially in floodprone area like Winnipeg.
If M.T.I. has to redo the slopes (from 0% to 0.5%), that will definitely add to the cost.

Admittedly my tone came off arrogant in an earlier post. My point is that there are more than what meets the eyes when it comes to accounting for ground condition.

Most of the roadwork is greenfield new construction, so the slope profile should be modernized regardless of current status. I don't know what standards the old segments were built to.

As for cost:

Using Biff's estimate and round up, let's assume the bridge portion costs 60 million. That's still 175 million left for ~3 km of new 4 lane road, ~3 km of new PTH 3, and a handful of reroutes of residential grade local roads, collectors, and service roads.

The utilities relocation is probably on par to what had to move for the St Mary's interchange.

The real distinction between St Mary's and this project - as others have pointed out - is the amount of land acquisition required. Prime farmland that would have been urbanized into Oak Bluff eventually, so the fair market value was probably quite high. Adding to this, there was an article saying the way the parcels of farmland were being chopped up would make it challenging or impossible to farm them, so some landowners may have negotiated a heftier payout.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/winnipeg/article/...-expropriation-over-interchange-project/

[cllew]

Originally Posted by WildCake

Could it be to ensure design speed of 160 km/h? The current curve between PTH 2 and McGillivray on the Perimeter is definitely too sharp to allow for that.

IIRC the reconstruction around the Centreport interchange called for the Perimeter to have a design speed of 160 km/h, and you can tell the quality of the highway is drastically different and more modern than the segments that lead into it.

I don't remember reading 160km/h anywhere in the South Perimeter Design Study publications, but that might not be publicly shared since some media outlet would misinterpret it as speed limits being raised to 160 km/h.

The curve south of Fermor/100 is also softened in the proposed designs.

I believe that North American highways were designed for a higher speed than the posted speed to keep them somewhat more safe when the people that knowingly exceed the posted limits are driving on them.

I think its usually a 10 to 20km design difference between posted and design speeds.

[The Jabroni]

Originally Posted by WildCake

Most of the roadwork is greenfield new construction, so the slope profile should be modernized regardless of current status. I don't know what standards the old segments were built to.

As for cost:

Using Biff's estimate and round up, let's assume the bridge portion costs 60 million. That's still 175 million left for ~3 km of new 4 lane road, ~3 km of new PTH 3, and a handful of reroutes of residential grade local roads, collectors, and service roads.

The utilities relocation is probably on par to what had to move for the St Mary's interchange.

The real distinction between St Mary's and this project - as others have pointed out - is the amount of land acquisition required. Prime farmland that would have been urbanized into Oak Bluff eventually, so the fair market value was probably quite high. Adding to this, there was an article saying the way the parcels of farmland were being chopped up would make it challenging or impossible to farm them, so some landowners may have negotiated a heftier payout.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/winnipeg/article/...-expropriation-over-interchange-project/

That makes total sense. The land acquisition needed for the reroute of the Perimeter Highway to divert away from existing businesses close to the intersection would increase the cost.

Everything else is gravy at this point.

[plrh]

Originally Posted by craner

Why on earth would this work take 4 years to complete ?

It's 3 summers of construction and 1 summer of electrical work and seeding. So 3 x 8 months is 24 months of civil work in 4 years.

[jim_bred]

People underestimate how much work these projects are...it's not just a bridge.

[bomberjet]

With this schedule ill imagine theyre shutdown over winters. So basicslly 3 construction seasons of work. With the 2029 season being finishing work as was mentioned. In service date maybe fall 2028? Not sure if that date is out there somewhere.

2 construction season maybe couldve been done with additional crews and over winter work. Would probably be more costly that way.

What is the status of land acquisition? Thats wasnt complete yet IIRC.

[bomberjet]

Okay wait I just misread. So its 4 years of construction. In service 2029. Completion 2030. Seems long.

[Highwayman]

Originally Posted by craner

Why on earth would this work take 4 years to complete ?

It was posted on a provincial site that they beleive construction would end im 2030

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by WildCake

Could it be to ensure design speed of 160 km/h? The current curve between PTH 2 and McGillivray on the Perimeter is definitely too sharp to allow for that.

IIRC the reconstruction around the Centreport interchange called for the Perimeter to have a design speed of 160 km/h, and you can tell the quality of the highway is drastically different and more modern than the segments that lead into it.

I don't remember reading 160km/h anywhere in the South Perimeter Design Study publications, but that might not be publicly shared since some media outlet would misinterpret it as speed limits being raised to 160 km/h.

The curve south of Fermor/100 is also softened in the proposed designs.

When they built the Perimeter they largely followed the alignments of the existing section roads and disturbed the farm lots as minimally as they could. The changes of direction on the northeast and southeast sides are where it hits the old French river lots and veers off to follow their boundaries. None of this was optimizing for modern speed limits, needless to say.

[bomberjet]

Reagrding design speed. 160 km/h is extreme and I doubt was actually used. I dont know of any curves that would meet this requirements. Especially since the province is flattening curves at Symington Road for example.

The drawings for McGillvray show a radius of 950m for the curve near the railway crossing. That would lead me to believe design speed is 110km/h or maybe 120km/h based on google searching some tables. It's dependent upon superelevation.

I don't know if they have plans to upgrade speed limit to 110 km/h at some point in the future.

[cllew]

I have read online during the flood of the century that the south and west Perimeter Hwy were part of the primary flood protection system.

Does anybody know if that is true, as making changes to highway locations and elevations to that portion may impact the cost of the project?

[harls]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Reagrding design speed. 160 km/h is extreme and I doubt was actually used. I dont know of any curves that would meet this requirements. Especially since the province is flattening curves at Symington Road for example.

The drawings for McGillvray show a radius of 950m for the curve near the railway crossing. That would lead me to believe design speed is 110km/h or maybe 120km/h based on google searching some tables. It's dependent upon superelevation.

The province has been widening curves in rural areas (Hwy 2 near Haywood and 3 by Sperling come to mind).

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by cllew

I have read online during the flood of the century that the south and west Perimeter Hwy were part of the primary flood protection system.

Does anybody know if that is true, as making changes to highway locations and elevations to that portion may impact the cost of the project?

I think the Brunkhild Z dike covers that now.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Reagrding design speed. 160 km/h is extreme and I doubt was actually used. I dont know of any curves that would meet this requirements. Especially since the province is flattening curves at Symington Road for example.

The drawings for McGillvray show a radius of 950m for the curve near the railway crossing. That would lead me to believe design speed is 110km/h or maybe 120km/h based on google searching some tables. It's dependent upon superelevation.

I don't know if they have plans to upgrade speed limit to 110 km/h at some point in the future.

In Ontario, 950 m is the minimum radius for a design speed of 130 kph. In that case, M.T.I. may be designing Perimeter Highway for 120 kph (with posted speed limits of 100 kph).