stal̕əw̓asəm (Riverview) Bridge (Pattullo Bridge Replacement) | U/C

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by madog222

“Ə, or ə, is an additional letter of the Latin alphabet.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwa_(letter)

Interesting!! Thanks

Then replace that character with one of the 26 that we actually use. Why are we even using it when it’s not even part of the First Nations language. This makes even less sense why we use Archaic Latin characters in First Nations names.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by madog222

“Ə, or ə, is an additional letter of the Latin alphabet.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwa_(letter)

Additional means it's not part of the Latin alphabet. Read the second paragraph, it was invented in 1820 by a linguist to help work with Bavarian. It's a very useful tool in linguistics but it's not a useful letter for English readers.

Surely you don't think these are all letters English speakers should know...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin-script_letters

[madog222]

I think you’re both not properly understanding the difference between language and script.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by madog222

I think you’re both not properly understanding the difference between language and script.

Or perhaps you're mistaking script for orthography? Written words are meant to be written usefully for the people meant to read and write those words. There's a reason we write Xi Jinping in English instead of the the official pinyin Xí Jìnpíng.

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by madog222

I think you’re both not properly understanding the difference between language and script.

For sure! I might not be using the right terms. That doesn’t change the reality that it’s written using characters that aren’t normally used. Why not just spell it this way, Stalawasem?

And yes I agree Chowhou. I don’t really get the point of writing it in way that isn’t using the common alphabet

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Additional means it's not part of the Latin alphabet. Read the second paragraph, it was invented in 1820 by a linguist to help work with Bavarian. It's a very useful tool in linguistics but it's not a useful letter for English readers.

Surely you don't think these are all letters English speakers should know...

Technically speaking, all letters were invented at one time or another. Fascinating reading; the Greek alphabet has 24 letters, the Etruscan alphabet had 27, and the ancient Romans used 21 of those for the original Latin alphabet. J, U and W were late to the game, linguistically speaking, and even today, Italy does not include J, U, W, Y and Z in the official Italian alphabet.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

For sure! I might not be using the right terms. That doesn’t change the reality that it’s written using characters that aren’t normally used. Why not just spell it this way, Stalawasem?

And yes I agree Chowhou. I don’t really get the point of writing it in way that isn’t using the common alphabet

Exactly.

Just write the names in the common phonetics known to 99.9% of the population.

Otherwise it really does come off as a bit of arrogance on liberal academic types who spearhead these initiatives. “Oh, your all too stupid to read these names? How common and low. You should enlighten yourselves like we have.”

It just gives fuel (and in these instances, rightly so) to the backlash against these initiatives.

And it’s even displayed by some on here using semantics and technicalities as the base of their arguments for these illegible names. “Well, technically all letters are made up / 200 years ago we had these three letters we don’t use today…”

On maps, documents, etc… just use Stalawasem. No upside down 7s, handicap parking symbols, emojis, and now “other” name of Riverview. Just Stalawasem.

Now, as for the George Massey replacement, that name better not change, since the original tunnel was George Massey’s personal pet project, unlike the Pattullo.

[logan5]

Local TV and radio stations will use the new name, so people will get use to it, and probly start referring to the bridge by its given name. Once the Second Narrows Bridge got widely referred to as 'Iron Workers Memorial Bridge", I think that's what most people call it now, especially younger generations. Same thing will happen with the stal̕əw̓asəm Bridge.

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by logan5

Local TV and radio stations will use the new name, so people will get use to it, and probly start referring to the bridge by its given name. Once the Second Narrows Bridge got widely referred to as 'Iron Workers Memorial Bridge", I think that's what most people call it now, especially younger generations. Same thing will happen with the stal̕əw̓asəm Bridge.

Why wouldn’t we just spell it this way, Stalawasem. Iron workers isn’t written using obscure symbols may be a reason

Why do we use these outdated symbols in First Nations naming? It has nothing to do with their cultures. I think it does a disservice as metro said

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by logan5

Local TV and radio stations will use the new name, so people will get use to it, and probly start referring to the bridge by its given name. Once the Second Narrows Bridge got widely referred to as 'Iron Workers Memorial Bridge", I think that's what most people call it now, especially younger generations. Same thing will happen with the stal̕əw̓asəm Bridge.

Which younger generations are you thinking of that watch local TV and listen to radio stations?

Google Maps says Musqueumview St, Google Maps says Rainbow Park, I bet you Google Maps will say Riverview Bridge.

Google Maps does say Iron Workers' Memorial Bridge for that matter.

[mcj]

People couldn't even say/spell Pattullo right, this is a nothing burger.

[officedweller]

I suspect there's some politics going on so that the Musqueam First Nation and Kwantlen First Nation
don't accidentally refer to the Sto:lo First Nation.

If the first part of the name was "Sto:lo" people would recognize it and be able to more easily pronounce it.

i.e. Sto:loasəm versus stal̕əw̓asəm

Here's what Wikipedia says about the Sto:lo:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Stó꞉lō

The Stó꞉lō[1] (/ˈstɔːloʊ/), alternately written as Sto꞉lo, Stó꞉lô, or Stó꞉lõ, historically as Staulo, Stalo or Stahlo, and historically known and commonly referred to in ethnographic literature as the Fraser River Indians or Lower Fraser Salish, are a group of First Nations peoples inhabiting the Fraser Valley and lower Fraser Canyon of British Columbia, Canada, part of the loose grouping of Coast Salish nations. Stó꞉lō is the Halqemeylem word for "river", so the Stó꞉lō are the river people. The first documented reference to these people as "the Stó꞉lō" occurs in Catholic Oblate missionary records from the 1880s. Prior to this, references were primarily to individual tribal groups such as Matsqui, Ts’elxweyeqw, or Sumas.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

Why wouldn’t we just spell it this way, Stalawasem. Iron workers isn’t written using obscure symbols may be a reason

Why do we use these outdated symbols in First Nations naming? It has nothing to do with their cultures. I think it does a disservice as metro said

The Ironworkers Memorial Second Narrows Crossing doesn't use "obscure symbols" because the name is English. As for the First Nations using it, this is from UBC's Indigenous Portal:

In the 1990s, after systemic oppression of Indigenous languages throughout Canada, there were only a handful of fluent hən̓q̓əmin̓əm̓ speakers. Through consultation with these language speakers and community, Musqueam determined that the North American Phonetic Alphabet (NAPA) was the right alphabet (orthography) to capture the unique sounds of hən̓q̓əmin̓əm̓. NAPA was chosen instead of the Latin-script alphabet used in modern English because the majority of hən̓q̓əmin̓əm̓ sounds are different from those in English, and the letters in the English alphabet do not capture these unique hən̓q̓əmin̓əm̓ sounds accurately.

UBC Indigenous Portal: Reconciliation, one keystroke at a time

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

The Ironworkers Memorial Second Narrows Crossing doesn't use "obscure symbols" because the name is English. As for the First Nations using it, this is from UBC's Indigenous Portal:



UBC Indigenous Portal: Reconciliation, one keystroke at a time

No you missed the point. People say iron workers because it’s written in the 26 letter Latin alphabet.

Also, so? When we name something in Japanese or Chinese we still write it using the Latin alphabet, in general

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

UBC Indigenous Portal: Reconciliation, one keystroke at a time

I'll reiterate, we don't have the letters in English to "correctly" write Chinese words like Xi Jinping's name because Mandarin is a tonal language, but we don't need to because we're not trying to speak Mandarin when we write his name in English. No matter how you write it, people speaking English are going to say it with English phonology anyway. We ought to write it using English orthography.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

The Ironworkers Memorial Second Narrows Crossing doesn't use "obscure symbols" because the name is English...[/URL]

Yeah, well, Squamish/Sḵwx̱wú7mesh has both the Anglicized name and the NAPA one; no reason they couldn't have done the same here.

All this does is guarantee that Riverview becomes the "normal" name and stal̕əw̓asəm is tacked on as a formality. It's almost like Jim Crow.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I'll reiterate, we don't have the letters in English to "correctly" write Chinese words like Xi Jinping's name because Mandarin is a tonal language, but we don't need to because we're not trying to speak Mandarin when we write his name in English. No matter how you write it, people speaking English are going to say it with English phonology anyway. We ought to write it using English orthography.

As someone on X pointed out, lots of British Columbians are proud to live in areas with indigenous names that are easily read and pronounced by the layman: Saanich, Comox, Cowichan etc. Using obscure spellings doesn't advance reconciliation.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Yeah, well, Squamish/Sḵwx̱wú7mesh has both the Anglicized name and the NAPA one; no reason they couldn't have done the same here.

All this does is guarantee that Riverview becomes the "normal" name and stal̕əw̓asəm is tacked on as a formality. It's almost like Jim Crow.

Reminds me of when I realized that MST developments does a better job introducing indigenous names to the general population than the government. People are mostly content with names like Lelem, Senakw, and Kwasen, even with the odd schwa here and there.

No one wants to have to deal with sθәqәlxenәm ts'exwts'áxwi7.

Originally Posted by whatnext

As someone on X pointed out, lots of British Columbians are proud to live in areas with indigenous names that are easily read and pronounced by the layman: Saanich, Comox, Cowichan etc. Using obscure spellings doesn't advance reconciliation.

Yes, everyone loves Squamish, most people make fun of Sḵwx̱wú7mesh. "The one with the 7"

[aberdeen5698]

I have no problem using First Nations names, I think names like "Haida Gwai" and "Salish Sea" give our region a lot of character. But when they're written in a phonetic form such as "xʷməθkʷəy̓əm" it just repels English speakers. It is IMHO unreasonable to expect everyone to learn a new alphabet in order to do basic wayfinding.

All of the non First Nations languages have Romanization rules that allow English speakers to at least attempt a vague facsimile of the name, the same should be true of of our local indigenous languages and the Roman script should at the very least be included on signage which in theory is supposed to allow clear and accurate wayfinding.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Time for a Simplified/Traditional NAPA split?