Canadian Retail Thread

[Taeolas]

Just think, if either were still around, we could get cringeworthy ads for Woolco featuring both Alan AND Robin Thicke.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Loco101

We had a Zellers in our mall from about 1999 to 2013 but it never had a restaurant. The store was previously a K-mart which did have one. By the turn of the millennium diners really weren't included in stores. The Zellers experience in Timmins just plainly sucked and the store couldn't compete with Walmart and others. The poor selection of merchandise was pretty sad.

I can't see a new Zellers going head to head with Walmart. Perhaps they could cast themselves as a Canadian Target by going a bit style-forward.

[phone]

Canning Zellers was a Brexit-level self-own for HBC. Funny to see that brand getting the last laugh as Hudson's Bay suffers the indignity of becoming a Canadian Tire house brand.

[Taeolas]

nuZellers would be lucky to steal ground from Giant Tiger before it can even begin to think of tackling Walmart. Canadian Tire would also be eating its lunch if it gets big enough. I doubt Walmart Canada would even realize it came back.

Nostalgia might help it get some ground initially, but it's going to have a tough battle growing beyond the initial nostalgia pulse. IMO, it'll be lucky if it lasts as long as Target did ultimately.

[MolsonExport]

Even back when Walmart first entered the Canadian market, Zellers couldn't compete with Walmart, despite the former often having better real estate (the latter had assumed leases for a lot of Woolcos, for example, which were usually in second- or third- tier malls (or plazas) and less desirable locations generally).

The most recent relaunch of Zellers (store within a store concept, by Hudson's Bay) was embarrassingly bad, and by comparison, almost made Target Canada look like a massive success.

In the discount retailing world, you had better go big, or go home.

Competing head to head with Walmart is a recipe for disaster. Better to differentiate, as Canadian Tire has done (which was prematurely given a death sentence by many retail analysts when Walmart really started expanding into Canada).

Canadian Tire has depth and breadth in categories where Walfart is very weak. Which also happen to be categories that offer higher margins (vs. groceries and FMCGs, which offer margins that amount to pennies on the dollar, or worse).

Likewise, Dollarama. There happens to be a huge market, comprised of people that just don't want to spend more than a few dollars on everyday household goods, party supplies, and snacks/Candy.

What I don't understand is Shoppers Dog Fart. Absolutely awful prices, terrible ambience, very little service....and yet, they are everywhere (often bereft of customers). Walmart is cheaper (usually, much, much cheaper) than Shoppers Dog Fart on EVERYTHING. And Costco has been expanding its reach into categories that are usually associated with Drugstores.

It wasn't always that way. I recall when Shoppers had decent prices (and a lot of great markdowns), but then Galen acquired it, and decided that Canadians were ready to pay twice as much for cough medicine and chocolate bars at Shoppers Dog Fart vs. Walfart.

[Taeolas]

Canadian Tire has managed to thrive by focusing on Walmart's weak sectors. To the point where Walmart has basically abandoned Automotive entirely. Even recently I remember they had tires and service centers, but in the recent decade or so, they've retreated to barely having motor oil and maybe wiper blades. I'd dare say the ubiquitous of Canadian Tire forced them out of there.

I think SDMs survival is basically by brand recognition mainly and inertia, and (now) being backed by Loblaws. They basically set themselves up as the National Pharmacy, and that's stuck in our collective memory ever since, like CT and Tims have. I do think they were (and maybe still are) in trouble somewhat, or not doing as well as they feel they should; that was probably part of the reason Loblaws bought them up. (And not just because Loblaws wanted their own drugmart to match Sobey's Lawtons)

IMO, Giant Tiger more than Dollarama has snuck up to fill in the Zellers spot. It's a smaller department store, but it seems to have firmly settled into a niche where it has the basics at a decent price for the most part. Not a huge selection but if you're in a bind, you can probably find a solution there. It's also some. Hart seems to also be trying to cover that niche too, but doesn't seem as strong. (Hart seems to also be aiming for the smaller markets like large towns, that were once covered by the Met/Saan/Stedmens/etc....).

[whatnext]

Seriously, who are all the folks who have fond memories of anything at Zellers? I grew up in a suburb that had one at the main mall and barely recall ever being taken to shop there, much less eat there. Simpson-Sears, The Bay, Woodwards yes, but never Zellers.

[phone]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Seriously, who are all the folks who have fond memories of anything at Zellers? I grew up in a suburb that had one at the main mall and barely recall ever being taken to shop there, much less eat there. Simpson-Sears, The Bay, Woodwards yes, but never Zellers.

Maybe it depends when you grew up. As a kid in the 90s/00s, Zellers was *definitely* a thing, and remains a retail touchstone for people my age. HBC wasn't stupid to try to revive Zellers to cash in on remaining goodwill, but they just did so in embarrassingly bad fashion.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

nuZellers would be lucky to steal ground from Giant Tiger before it can even begin to think of tackling Walmart. Canadian Tire would also be eating its lunch if it gets big enough. I doubt Walmart Canada would even realize it came back.

Nostalgia might help it get some ground initially, but it's going to have a tough battle growing beyond the initial nostalgia pulse. IMO, it'll be lucky if it lasts as long as Target did ultimately.

They'll have to offer better than that if they want to succeed.

[SpongeG]

When the Bay relaunched Zellers, a big complaint on social media was, 'Why can't I buy toilet paper or laundry soap like the old Zellers?' As they can get that part right, they might be ok for some.

A problem could be finding store spaces to rent, I don't think they would do well outside of a mall on their own.

[casper]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Seriously, who are all the folks who have fond memories of anything at Zellers? I grew up in a suburb that had one at the main mall and barely recall ever being taken to shop there, much less eat there. Simpson-Sears, The Bay, Woodwards yes, but never Zellers.

Growing up in Vancouver, as a kid the local Zellers was on East Hastings. It was a 4-5 story building. Only reason to go there was the European shoes for kids. It was rare to find Zellers in any other parts of Vancouver. I think it was more of an eastern thing.

The closest shopping center was Champlain Heights Mall and it had a Bay department store that was later converted into a Zellers. It had food.

Brentwood Mall also had a Zellers.

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

They'll have to offer better than that if they want to succeed.

Giant Tiger is a very eastern/central Canada thing. They have been making inroads in Western Canada but its a slow move west. Zellers has a chance to establish a foothold and defends it western turf.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Seriously, who are all the folks who have fond memories of anything at Zellers? I grew up in a suburb that had one at the main mall and barely recall ever being taken to shop there, much less eat there. Simpson-Sears, The Bay, Woodwards yes, but never Zellers.

In London, when I was a kid Zellers was the most dominant chain. We had 3 Woolco stores but there were as many as 6 Zellers, and in parts of the city you were closer to multiple Zellers stores than any Woolco. We also had 2 Kmarts, and one of them was replaced by Zellers when Kmart Canada folded. We also had a Towers but it became a Zellers as well. St. Thomas had Zellers but didn’t even have Woolco.

Zellers actually got its start in London, so that may be why it was dominant there.

We shopped at Woolco far more than Zellers as we lived closer to Woolco. I don’t remember it that well as I was only 8 when Walmart took over, but I do remember Alan Thicke being on signs all over the store. And I remember the cafeteria at our local Woolco was almost never open. We did most of our clothes shopping at Eaton’s, however.

[theman23]

The best part of Zellers was that it was always a breeze to find parking on whatever side of the mall it was on. Probably one of the original "life hacks".

[Taeolas]

Fredericton had 3 Zellers in its prime. One uptown in the Fredericton Mall, one on the Northside in Brookside, and one downtown. (Maybe the downtown one moved to Brookside when the mall was built; I'm hazy on the timeline).

The downtown Zellers was notable because it was the only public escalator in the city while it was open.

When the downtown Zellers closed, the city lost its only escalator and we wouldn't get one back until the Downtown Convention Center was built about 10-15 years ago. (I think that's still the only escalator we have in the city)

We also had 1 Woolco and 1 KMart and 1 Sears in the city at that peak.

Woolco became Walmart. KMart closed and Canadian Tire eventually took over that space. (We have had 2 Canadian Tires as well). Sears hung on to the bitter end before finally closing, and Walmart eventually opened a second brand new location, leading us to our current situation. (We also have 2 Giant Tigers and 1 Hart, the Hart in one of the former Zellers locations). The last Zellers location was briefly a Target before it was torn down for a new Sobeys.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

In London, when I was a kid Zellers was the most dominant chain. We had 3 Woolco stores but there were as many as 6 Zellers, and in parts of the city you were closer to multiple Zellers stores than any Woolco. We also had 2 Kmarts, and one of them was replaced by Zellers when Kmart Canada folded. We also had a Towers but it became a Zellers as well. St. Thomas had Zellers but didn’t even have Woolco.

Zellers actually got its start in London, so that may be why it was dominant there.

We shopped at Woolco far more than Zellers as we lived closer to Woolco. I don’t remember it that well as I was only 8 when Walmart took over, but I do remember Alan Thicke being on signs all over the store. And I remember the cafeteria at our local Woolco was almost never open. We did most of our clothes shopping at Eaton’s, however.

I think you are referring to the Northland Mall KMart being replaced by Zellers, as I don't recall the other Kmart at Wonderland and Oxford ever becoming a Zellers. Northland was a Zellers going back to the 70's at least (my mom managed the Skillet there in 1975 or so). Kmart was across the road (site of the current Shoppers Drug Mart). Zellers moved out of Northland in the early 90's down to Oxbury Mall and Kmart closed and moved over to Northland. Kmart went out of business and Zellers moved back to Northland. When Target came along this was one of the several Zellers stores they didn't take up and Walmart came along. Walmart was planning a new store up at Fanshawe and Highbury but those plans have apparently been dropped with the latest site plan update for that commercial development.

St Thomas also had Kmart and Sears at the mall

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

In London, when I was a kid Zellers was the most dominant chain. We had 3 Woolco stores but there were as many as 6 Zellers, and in parts of the city you were closer to multiple Zellers stores than any Woolco. We also had 2 Kmarts, and one of them was replaced by Zellers when Kmart Canada folded. We also had a Towers but it became a Zellers as well. St. Thomas had Zellers but didn’t even have Woolco.

Zellers actually got its start in London, so that may be why it was dominant there.

We shopped at Woolco far more than Zellers as we lived closer to Woolco. I don’t remember it that well as I was only 8 when Walmart took over, but I do remember Alan Thicke being on signs all over the store. And I remember the cafeteria at our local Woolco was almost never open. We did most of our clothes shopping at Eaton’s, however.

Growing up in the West Island of Montreal during the 70s, the closest department store (by a long shot) to my house was Woolco. I can count the number of times my parents shopped at Woolco on one hand (my mom had particular disdain for the chain, and liked shopping at either Eaton's or Simpson's, at Fairview Pointe Claire, or in Downtown Montreal (we'd often take the train downtown to Windsor Station, then walk a few blocks to the gargantuan Eaton's on Rue Ste. Catherine).

Us kids would go to Woolco more often. They would sell us cigarettes (or girly mags), without asking us for ID.

[Sunnybrae]

I remember the K-Marts with the blue light specials and the little old ladies pushing the cart at mach 2 to get to them. Good times!

[Wigs]

Growing up Zellers was put into a former Towers location on the other side of town. As a kid I liked them both.

My local mall had Kmart and Woolco (and later a Sears addition) as the anchors. Then Walmart ruined everything.
And Target was the worst retail failure I've ever witnessed. Now the former Woolco/Walmart/Target store and a chunk of the mall has been demolished for a residential development being built adjacent to the mall that appears to be seriously delayed. It was supposed to bring around 1,300 residential units (including 2 midrise and 1 highrise) within strolling distance of the mall.

[MolsonExport]

^sounds a lot like the recent sad history of London's Westmount Mall.

[Denscity]

Castlegar was never big enough to have its own Zellers. Or even a mall.
Trail BC next door had the Bay downtown which later turned into a Zellers. They then moved into Trail's mall. Both of their former spaces are empty to this day.
Castlegar is now larger than Trail. But still does not have a mall or even a Walmart.