Statistics Canada Reports II

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Winnipeg

What is that tiny pocket of density in the western section of Winnipeg?

[Mr Tall Forehead]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

What is that tiny pocket of density in the western section of Winnipeg?

I think that’s ‘the Courts of St James’ - four or five 15-18 story 1970s commie blocks in a relatively small area.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

The "dynamic" between the city of Saint John and its suburbs has been one of my least favourite aspects to life in "Saint John Region" since I moved here. I feel "Saint John vs Kennebecasis Valley" is very reminiscent to "Springfield vs Shelbyville" in The Simpsons.

One thing I have noticed living in places outside of Atlantic Canada is how much less jealousy and parochial competition there is. The Maritimes can have (or had, when I was there more, back in the 2000's) an almost unhinged dynamic between a small city and almost inconsequential suburbs and there's a lot of jealousy between smaller and bigger cities. I don't see it to anywhere near the same level in Ontario, BC, Western Canada, etc. Around here you don't see people in Kelowna or Nanaimo or Calgary ranting about Vancouver much at all. Or people in North Van or Burnaby complaining about the city so much and going on about their distinctive identity.

I wonder if a part of it is the relatively large role of governments and the sense that economic activity is given by a higher authority rather than grown organically. The Maritimes also have much older and larger small towns and rural populations relative to the size of the cities, and rural people often set the agenda at the provincial level. There's almost no economic growth in the rural areas and there's an almost toxic relationship where the rural areas resent the cities but rely on them heavily to subsidize services.

Another different I noticed is how much more people farther west in Canada care about population figures or size as a yardstick for deciding how developed a place is. In Atlantic Canada people often talk more about different places and history, and will often equate places of a wildly different population. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle and is a bit different in the different regions. The West is a bit more straightforward in that every city is essentially modern and developed in a pretty similar way. Sometimes in Atlantic Canada it gets a bit silly with people talking about things like rail service to tiny towns without really thinking about numbers, and there is more of an attitude that every place should have a consistent level of services, without regard for how viable they are economically.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by someone123

One thing I have noticed living in places outside of Atlantic Canada is how much less jealousy and parochial competition there is. The Maritimes can have (or had, when I was there more, back in the 2000's) an almost unhinged dynamic between a small city and almost inconsequential suburbs and there's a lot of jealousy between smaller and bigger cities. I don't see it to anywhere near the same level in Ontario, BC, Western Canada, etc. Around here you don't see people in Kelowna or Nanaimo or Calgary ranting about Vancouver much at all. Or people in North Van or Burnaby complaining about the city so much and going on about their distinctive identity.

I wonder if a part of it is the relatively large role of governments and the sense that economic activity is given by a higher authority rather than grown organically. The Maritimes also have much older and larger small towns and rural populations relative to the size of the cities, and rural people often set the agenda at the provincial level. There's almost no economic growth in the rural areas and there's an almost toxic relationship where the rural areas resent the cities but rely on them heavily to subsidize services.

I think some of it is that while no part of the country has a lot of high growth small towns (that aren't in commuter sheds), the Maritimes has a lot of slowly shrinking small towns. And much of the shrinkage comes in the form of people and jobs moving to larger places. It isn't just stuff closing and ceasing to exist, but rather some things that did exist moving to other places. So while it may be true that cities subsidize the small towns, it doesn't feel that way. It feels like the small towns are subsidizing the cities by the cities slowly leeching away all the people and jobs. It's one of those cases where the intuition and the reality are quite different.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I think some of it is that while no part of the country has a lot of high growth small towns (that aren't in commuter sheds), the Maritimes has a lot of slowly shrinking small towns. And much of the shrinkage comes in the form of people and jobs moving to larger places. It isn't just stuff closing and ceasing to exist, but rather some things that did exist moving to other places. So while it may be true that cities subsidize the small towns, it doesn't feel that way. It feels like the small towns are subsidizing the cities by the cities slowly leeching away all the people and jobs. It's one of those cases where the intuition and the reality are quite different.

Quispamsis, NB is a small town with very high growth. However, I think it's a farce to call it a town. Imo, Quispamsis is a suburb of Saint John masquerading as a "town" of its own, to avoid paying their fair share of tax revenue to the city budget... same with Rothesay and Grand Bay.

So to answer @rdaner's question as to, "why NB has yet to amalgamate it's main three cities?" Politics. Rural people often set the agenda at the province of New Brunswick, and most of NB's premiers have come from rural areas. In Saint John's case, I'd say full on regional amalgamation hasn't happened mostly due to the political clout and selfishness of the bedroom communities that want to keep their communities separate and nicer, even if maintaining this separation is holding the entire region back and starving the city budget. Moncton has a linguistic political dynamic that could make amalgamation more difficult, but not impossible. Though, I think the general consensus is that Moncton and Fredericton have much more cooperative and productive relations with their outlying communities than Saint John does with its own.

Personally, I don't understand how people in the Saint John region can look at Halifax's growth since amalgamation in the mid 90's and still think, "we don't want anything like that here!".

While the jealousy, parochial competition, and provincial attitudes seemed to have simmered down a lot in Halifax post amalgamation, and especially so after the recent boom, these attitudes are still very much pervasive in the Saint John region, and I think it's holding the entire region back.

As someone123 noted, there is a distinct difference between Western Canada and Atlantic Canada in terms of this "unhinged dynamic" between cities and almost inconsequential suburbs/bedroom communities.

I grew up in Western Canada I don't remember any fellow Winnipeggers being outraged that Oak Bluff or other outlying communities weren't contributing their fair share in tax revenue to the city budget... Yet here in Saint John, I can't help but feel outraged myself, that most of the highest income earners in Saint John are living in communities outside the city, that don't contribute their fair share in tax revenue to the city budget. Yet, the leaders of these bedroom communities feign outrage when they are accused of not "paying their fair share", to which the respond that they're already paying their fair share.

Last time I checked, both the towns of Rothesay and Quispamsis contribute less than even $1 million per year to the City of Saint John budget... which doesn't even come close to being "fair".

I'll have to do some research and find out which other small and medium sized CMA's in Canada have similar situations to Saint John. I'm obviously biased, but I truly do feel that the Saint John CMA has one of, if not the most, unfortunate of dynamics between a city and its suburbs/bedroom communities in the entire country.

[zoomer]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I'll have to do some research and find out which other small and medium sized CMA's in Canada have similar situations to Saint John. I'm obviously biased, but I truly do feel that the Saint John CMA has one of, if not the most, unfortunate of dynamics between a city and its suburbs/bedroom communities in the entire country.

Well, Victoria might take the cake here - a total of 13 different municipalities with 13 different mayors and their individual councils. I think each have their own fire departments (Victoria trucks are yellow, Saanich is red), Oak Bay has their own police department, as does Saanich, Victoria and Esquimalt share a common force, the others use the RCMP. There is an overriding regional body called the Capital Regional District. Saanich has nearly 130,000 people, Victoria 100,000, the CMA about 442,000. The city of Victoria is quite small, only 7.52 miles, similar boundaries to the 3 km circle I posted earlier.

Here’s a decent map I found, but with old house prices:



Source


A recent citizens advisory group comprised of randomly selected volunteers from Saanich and Victoria voted 38 to 7 to recommend amalgamation of Victoria and Saanich, so it’s likely to go to referendum at the next municipal elections. The core four (no, not the Toronto Maple Leafs) is Victoria, Esquimalt, Saanich and Oak Bay, but who knows if that ever happens.

If you’re really interested here’s more on the process with the final report:

https://www.victoriasaanich.ca/?_sc=NTc4ODA1NCMyODc1

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Quispamsis, NB is a small town with very high growth. However, I think it's a farce to call it a town. Imo, Quispamsis is a suburb of Saint John masquerading as a "town" of its own, to avoid paying their fair share of tax revenue to the city budget... same with Rothesay and Grand Bay.

So to answer @rdaner's question as to, "why NB has yet to amalgamate it's main three cities?" Politics. Rural people often set the agenda at the province of New Brunswick, and most of NB's premiers have come from rural areas. In Saint John's case, I'd say full on regional amalgamation hasn't happened mostly due to the political clout and selfishness of the bedroom communities that want to keep their communities separate and nicer, even if maintaining this separation is holding the entire region back and starving the city budget. Moncton has a linguistic political dynamic that could make amalgamation more difficult, but not impossible. Though, I think the general consensus is that Moncton and Fredericton have much more cooperative and productive relations with their outlying communities than Saint John does with its own.

Personally, I don't understand how people in the Saint John region can look at Halifax's growth since amalgamation in the mid 90's and still think, "we don't want anything like that here!".

While the jealousy, parochial competition, and provincial attitudes seemed to have simmered down a lot in Halifax post amalgamation, and especially so after the recent boom, these attitudes are still very much pervasive in the Saint John region, and I think it's holding the entire region back.

As someone123 noted, there is a distinct difference between Western Canada and Atlantic Canada in terms of this "unhinged dynamic" between cities and almost inconsequential suburbs/bedroom communities.

I grew up in Western Canada I don't remember any fellow Winnipeggers being outraged that Oak Bluff or other outlying communities weren't contributing their fair share in tax revenue to the city budget... Yet here in Saint John, I can't help but feel outraged myself, that most of the highest income earners in Saint John are living in communities outside the city, that don't contribute their fair share in tax revenue to the city budget. Yet, the leaders of these bedroom communities feign outrage when they are accused of not "paying their fair share", to which the respond that they're already paying their fair share.

Last time I checked, both the towns of Rothesay and Quispamsis contribute less than even $1 million per year to the City of Saint John budget... which doesn't even come close to being "fair".

I'll have to do some research and find out which other small and medium sized CMA's in Canada have similar situations to Saint John. I'm obviously biased, but I truly do feel that the Saint John CMA has one of, if not the most, unfortunate of dynamics between a city and its suburbs/bedroom communities in the entire country.

You should check out WHO lives in Quispam and Rothesay. Almost all the inhabitants of those two communities are the members of the Irving Family and their senior employees. Think Windsor England to Saint John as Brixton.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

You should check out WHO lives in Quispam and Rothesay. Almost all the inhabitants of those two communities are the members of the Irving Family and their senior employees. Think Windsor England to Saint John as Brixton.

A bit of a stretch there, but, it is a fair point that the denizens of the Kennebecasis Valley (Rothesay and Quispamsis) enjoy their status of being "Saint John adjacent", and have no desire tho be otherwise associated or affiliated with Saint John.

- no fog
- actual decent summer weather
- absence of pollution
- no vagrants/homeless
- lower crime rate

Rothesay in particular is quite tony, with a New England style town square, a prestigious private school, leafy neighbourhoods, and a number of Irving mansions. People in Rothesay can comfortably look down their noses at the residents of Saint John, while enjoying cocktails on the expansive deck of the golf course clubhouse.

[Kilgore Trout]

There are 82 municipalities in the Montreal CMA, compared to 25 in Toronto and 21 in Vancouver. That's probably the largest number of any CMA. In that sense it's more similar to a lot of American metropolitan areas with their plethora of little towns and suburbs.

On the other hand, the city/suburb population split is more distinctly Canadian. 47% of the population live on Montreal Island (not technically one municipality but effectively so, thanks to the agglomeration council) with the remaining 53% off-island. That's roughly the same as the city/suburb split in Toronto.

[craner]

Whereas Calgary developed using the unicity model - annexing surrounding communities as it sprawled outward.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Rothesay in particular is quite tony, with a New England style town square, a prestigious private school, leafy neighbourhoods, and a number of Irving mansions. People in Rothesay can comfortably look down their noses at the residents of Saint John, while enjoying cocktails on the expansive deck of the golf course clubhouse.

It's also one of the most "American" parts of Canada, and I've always thought the inner city vs. suburb arrangement there fit with that. It is not just that it was established by Loyalists and is more right wing politically to this day than the rest of the Maritimes. The way they planned the area and created the institutions there had an impact centuries later. Halifax was basically set up as a small European capital by Europeans, while in NB they put the capital in a smaller town up river, put the university there, etc. Saint John ended up being the industrial and commercial heart of the area.

I'd also say there was an ambition to how Saint John was developed that is more in line with the USA. T the city didn't grow much in the late 1800's and 1900's, so it's still not a giant metropolis with huge buildings. But it had the large custom house, union station, museum, etc.

[Blitz]

Yeah I can imagine it's a cool experience walking along the riverfront and seeing one of the great American cities across the river. I know very little about Windsor - can anyone share interesting streets, neighbourhoods/areas to check out?

I'd say the Walkerville neighbourhood is the most interesting (one of the few examples in North America of a planned "company town"). But there are many different parts of Windsor that ooze with character.

As others have mentioned, Windsor is just different. It's like no other city in Ontario...and that's what makes it so great.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

A bit of a stretch there, but, it is a fair point that the denizens of the Kennebecasis Valley (Rothesay and Quispamsis) enjoy their status of being "Saint John adjacent", and have no desire tho be otherwise associated or affiliated with Saint John.

- no fog
- actual decent summer weather
- absence of pollution
- no vagrants/homeless
- lower crime rate

Rothesay in particular is quite tony, with a New England style town square, a prestigious private school, leafy neighbourhoods, and a number of Irving mansions. People in Rothesay can comfortably look down their noses at the residents of Saint John, while enjoying cocktails on the expansive deck of the golf course clubhouse.

A fair point or an unfair point? Because I think it's a mostly unfair situation here between "SJ and KV". They want their cake and to eat it too... they want all the good aspects of being associated and affiliated with Saint John, and none of the bad aspects. They're part of the Saint John Region when its convenient for them, but not part of Saint John when it's not.

Keep in mind, a large part of the Kennebecasis Valley is within the city limits. Also, it's totally false to suggest the Kennebecasis Valley has, "no fog"... they just get less fog. I've been in SJ for quite a while now, and I still don't get the issue with the "the fog". For the most part I like the fog, and think the summer weather in Saint John is actually some of the most pleasant summer weather in Canada. A typical summer day in Saint John would be something like 23 degrees and partly cloudy. Please refrain from spreading inaccurate stereotypes! thanks

As has been mentioned here already, the situation in Saint John, NB is very similar to what is often seen south of the border, but is not the typical situation in Canada. The Canadian thing to do would be to amalgamate the region into a single municipality, ala Halifax.

I don't think Rothesayites should get too comfortable sipping those cocktails and "looking down their noses" at the residents of Saint John. 🙄 I think it's not a question of if amalgamation will happen, but rather, when will amalgamation happen?

All it will take is a single provincial government with the courage to do the right thing.

Originally Posted by Dartguard

You should check out WHO lives in Quispam and Rothesay. Almost all the inhabitants of those two communities are the members of the Irving Family and their senior employees. Think Windsor England to Saint John as Brixton.

Oh I've heard... but don't think this is a reason to be discouraged for the cause of amalgamation. The "elites" would survive their suburbs of Rothesay and Quispamsis officially becoming part of the same municipality as Saint John. The most important thing, to make sure amalgamation is a success, would be to go with a new name for this regional municipality, a name other than Saint John!

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by zoomer

Well, Victoria might take the cake here - a total of 13 different municipalities with 13 different mayors and their individual councils. I think each have their own fire departments (Victoria trucks are yellow, Saanich is red), Oak Bay has their own police department, as does Saanich, Victoria and Esquimalt share a common force, the others use the RCMP. There is an overriding regional body called the Capital Regional District. Saanich has nearly 130,000 people, Victoria 100,000, the CMA about 442,000. The city of Victoria is quite small, only 7.52 miles, similar boundaries to the 3 km circle I posted earlier.

Here’s a decent map I found, but with old house prices:


Source


A recent citizens advisory group comprised of randomly selected volunteers from Saanich and Victoria voted 38 to 7 to recommend amalgamation of Victoria and Saanich, so it’s likely to go to referendum at the next municipal elections. The core four (no, not the Toronto Maple Leafs) is Victoria, Esquimalt, Saanich and Oak Bay, but who knows if that ever happens.

If you’re really interested here’s more on the process with the final report:

https://www.victoriasaanich.ca/?_sc=NTc4ODA1NCMyODc1

I was aware the Capital Region District existed in Victoria, but I didn't realize there was still a further appetite to go beyond that to amalgamate as a single municipality.

We don't even have something equivalent to the CRD here in Saint John, which would be a huge improvement to the current situation.

[phone]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Rothesay in particular is quite tony, with a New England style town square, a prestigious private school, leafy neighbourhoods, and a number of Irving mansions. People in Rothesay can comfortably look down their noses at the residents of Saint John, while enjoying cocktails on the expansive deck of the golf course clubhouse.

Out of curiosity I started clicking around looking for the town square you mention, but can't seem to identify it. Do you mean this city park?

One thing that strikes me about east coast suburban development is that it seems to be quite a lot less dense than in other parts of the country.

Compare this (Rothesay):



Or this: (Lower Sackville):



To this (Lethbridge):



Or this (Kanata):



Or this (Sherbrooke):



Obviously there are exceptions to this -- I note that Moncton in particular appears more "western" in this regard, and the tighter block formations seem to appear more frequently the more recent -- but that east coast style really doesn't seem to pop up much at all anywhere in cities west of NB...

On the other hand, Newfoundland looks harder to pin down -- St. John's looks to have a real patchwork mix of different styles of development. Maybe because it's so much older, and land development turns into a palimpsest wherever you turn?

Is there a reason for why these larger lot sizes and setbacks, and generally more rural-feeling suburban development, took hold in the Maritimes but not elsewhere?

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by phone

Out of curiosity I started clicking around looking for the town square you mention, but can't seem to identify it. Do you mean this city park?

One thing that strikes me about east coast suburban development is that it seems to be quite a lot less dense than in other parts of the country.

Compare this (Rothesay):

Or this: (Lower Sackville):

To this (Lethbridge):

Or this (Kanata):

Or this (Sherbrooke):

It's very much a regional thing--the town centres and city centres on the east coast are classically compact, dense and mixed-use, and the outlying areas are often much more low-density and even semi-rural. I couldn't entirely explain why this is, but the same pattern can be seen in much of New England, on the outskirts of cities like Boston and Portland (the Maine one).

[someone123]

I think there are a number of practical reasons for this:

- Lots of waterfront, lakes, and forests. People want waterfront and trees preserved around their property.
- Plentiful water supplies anywhere, whether it's for municipal sources or wells
- Hilly and often rocky terrain so it is often cheaper to spread things out rather than do a lot of blasting or deal with steep grades. Moncton or Charlottetown are less like this, but it's a major factor around Halifax, St. John's, Saint John.
- Not as many farms so land is cheaper and not as subdivided to start
- These areas can be older with different towns and spread out industries, etc. so there's often more of a patchwork of sprawl with a less steep dropoff than you see on the Prairies
- Relatively developed freeways that allow people to commute at higher speeds

It's a bit misleading looking at satellite photos because you see the land use and not the population. 50 houses are more noticeable than a highrise with 300 units. Almost all new construction in Halifax is multi-unit.

[jc_yyc_ca]

These are the housing start numbers for the first half of 2025 for the top six metros. I'm pasting a screen shot as the table gets all messed up on this site. Calgary leading the charge as Toronto and Vancouver fill up overbuilt inventory.


Source

[jc_yyc_ca]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

These are interesting to me in part because they really show A: how different the results can be when using polygons vs. circles, but also because B: they really show how population size and density is only one factor in urban vitality.

Winnipeg and Edmonton exemplify both points. Measuring their 3-km radii shows a much higher population than Victoria and Halifax, yet the population is within the same ballpark, or even a little lower, when using the polygon method centered on the core.

I'm wondering if the polygon method may have some glitches. For example for Calgary, I'm measuring an area I already know was at 46K in the 2021 census. The Beltline alone was 30k in the 2021 census, but here shows the CBD and Beltline combined as 21k?

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by jc_yyc_ca

I'm wondering if the polygon method may have some glitches. For example for Calgary, I'm measuring an area I already know was at 46K in the 2021 census. The Beltline alone was 30k in the 2021 census, but here shows the CBD and Beltline combined as 21k?

I noticed some things like that too; small adjustments yield implausibly large population changes.

Maybe whatever dataset it's drawing from could be more granular. If I do the polygon on the same area of Calgary but extend the borders just a tiny bit north of the river, and then just a tiny bit below 17th, the population shoots up to 34,000.