Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Reminds me of that time a few years ago on this very forum, an Albertan was insisting that "Easterner" was an insult, and when some of us objected (calling it a factual, neutral term) his argument was "when my dad, born and raised in rural Alberta, says "an Easterner", with his tone you immediately know it's an insult".

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Les Anglais sont des étrangers, n'est-ce pas?

Of course, but it's just the facts, no offense intended. Drop me in Tokyo today and I'm "a stranger" there, but that doesn't make me a bad person.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

It is not uncommon at all to see the term "Anglo-Saxon" used for the English-speaking world in France. Sometimes the usage is neutral, sometimes there's some spin on the ball. Who cares?

I don't like this vibe of hammering down the nail that sticks up. So the Quebec thread has a guy from France who posts a lot about this issue and riles people up. Post back. Characterize the Gauls. Or forget about it because you're not really as into it as he is.

Canadians aren't supposed to be the team always calling for the ref.

I still remember your post in which you kinda pointed out that "Anglo-Saxons are basically like pirates".

(Do you remember it yourself, or is it just me who found it such a fascinating insight, enough to still remember it to this day? I like to occasionally remind myself that the optimal way to live is to behave like a pirate. Scrapping old SROs for more surface parking, etc. like a real Anglo-Saxon capitalist would do, etc.)

Forgot to thank you kool, but I will now!

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

They've been told by several Francophone forumers (both from North America and Europe) that "Anglo-Saxon" is a neutral term, but they keep insisting it's derogative. What can you do about it? It's a post-truth world.

It's as if they said "American" was a derogative term just because some people don't like Americans or American things. Silly, but that's basically the logic.

It's an inaccurate term because many anglophones are not descended from Anglo Saxons. Is everyone living in France a Gaul? Should all former colonies of France be labelled as containing Gaul people? It's ignorant and shows a disdain for the entire anglosphere.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by lio45

I still remember your post in which you kinda pointed out that "Anglo-Saxons are basically like pirates".

(Do you remember it yourself, or is it just me who found it such a fascinating insight, enough to still remember it to this day? I like to occasionally remind myself that the optimal way to live is to behave like a pirate. Scrapping old SROs for more surface parking, etc. like a real Anglo-Saxon capitalist would do, etc.)

Forgot to thank you kool, but I will now!

Razing old street facing historic blocks for parking lots doesn't make you a pirate, it makes you an @ssh0le. I can't believe you brag about doing that to your hometown. You're really contributing to the fabric of the city. For someone who frequents an urbanist forum this is mind boggling stuff.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

You're really contributing to the fabric of the city.

By the standards of Henry Morgan's contributions to the fabric of Panama City, yes, absolutely. I have other such examples if you want

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

It's an inaccurate term because many anglophones are not descended from Anglo Saxons. Is everyone living in France a Gaul? Should all former colonies of France be labelled as containing Gaul people? It's ignorant and shows a disdain for the entire anglosphere.

That's entirely pointless. If it was common in English to call any White French-speaking person "Gallic" then that would be the received term and it would be pointless to argue that not all of them descend from the Gauls.

Those opposing this term are in any case fighting a losing battle, since that term is now universally used in continental Europe, and also increasingly in British media as I posted several examples some time ago.

There, in the Financial Times of London, which can't really be accused of being either "French", or "anti-British"/"anti-Anglo-Saxon":

What makes many people uneasy is that Anglo-Saxon capitalism is heading towards a plutocratic model. The economy is run by the rich for the rich.

https://www.ft.com/content/cc068338-95af-11e4-a390-00144feabdc0

Better live with the increasing use of the term including now in Anglophone countries, instead of opposing it. It's like people opposing the use of this or that new term, until they can't because everyone else is using it.

Quora also has this interesting thread:

Why is Canada called an Anglo-Saxon country when one-fourth of Canada is French/Francophone? Why is French Canada just ignored?

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Canada-call...ophone-Why-is-French-Canada-just-ignored

[harls]

Stop contributing to this French thread, my fellow Anglo-Saxons!

[O-tacular]

I guess Acajack and lio can't complain about being called "French" anymore..

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I guess Acajack and lio can't complain about being called "French" anymore..

"French" is a nationality (to which the Québécois don't belong... anymore). "Anglo-Saxon" is not a nationality, it's a cultural term. It would be ridiculous to call the Anglo-Canadians "British", just as it is a bit ridiculous to call the Québécois "French".

There has also never been a unifying term to call the White French-speaking people of the world, which reflects the diverse nature of the Francophone world (as opposed to the Anglo-Saxon world which really stems from England originally, whereas neither Switzerland nor Belgium stem from France, and Québéc severed ties with France a long time ago). Only recently was the term "Francophone" coined, but it includes just about any Francophone, i.e. also Black Africans, Middle Easterners, Pacific Islanders, etc, not solely the White French-speaking people. And there's no such thing as "Francophone capitalism", or even "Francophone culture" (because in fact it's a mix of many different cultures, which happen to share a language).

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by harls

Stop contributing to this French thread, my fellow Anglo-Saxons!

This "Anglo-Saxon" term to refer to people from the English speaking world is one of the whackiest hills I've seen a poster choose to die on...

It's not even so much that it's offensive, but that it's just painfully inaccurate and ignorant. I don't care if it's used in France... this isn't France

By this logic Irish Catholics are "Anglo-Saxons" because they speak English.

Originally Posted by lio45

It's bad. Everyone will be able to tell you that. New Brisavoine agrees.

You might as well ask me what New Brisavoine thinks 2+2 is, and I will answer for him "4".

So far New Brisavoine refuses to comment on Carney's French... I'd just like to hear his opinion as a French person from France.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Or it would be if dissenting opinions were not allowed (Acajack has already been silenced now). Some people here apparently created that thread (or intend this thread) to be a place to say that all is well in the best of worlds for Québec and the French language in Canada, look how the French language is thriving and what a progressive country we are.

If that's the case, you might as well close the the thread and bask in the blissful feeling that all is quiet on the western front. Just don't come asking with a look of disbelief "WTF??" if someday something goes wrong with Québec and sovereignism...

If things are currently that rough in Quebec then support for sovereignty would be higher than 32% and rightly so.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

• Video Link

Interesting talk by Chantal Hebert at Concordia University in 2016... still incredibly relevant in today's politics.

NB, is Chantal Hebert huge in France?

• Video Link

We've clearly moved on from this issue ten years later, but has France?

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

• Video Link

Une crise de modération culturelle excessive?

Ce type de contrôle culturel est-il vraiment nécessaire pour protéger l’identité Québécoise?

Cela incitera-t-il les électeurs Anglo-Saxons à voter pour le Parti Libéral?

_____


Personally, I think this is taking language policing too far. Quebec's language police are the actual abusive mods we should be talking about in this thread.

[kool maudit]

This is funny in its pettiness, but it's not any more or less so than a lot of this stuff.

I have often said that I am of two minds about this. In the one, I consider the French fact in North America to be an incredible thing and an interesting thing. We are all the better for it. In the other, Montreal was one of the greatest and most fascinating cities of the English-speaking world, and its loss is felt.

So I sort of can't lose.

Language laws are illiberal by nature. They are there because a majority of voters do not think the free market of ideas (or whatever you want to call it) will produce their desired outcome. Once that's in place, what sort of person do you think might make a career of holding that line? Might they be petty and officious? Would they be more effective operating in another mode? Or is this just comment est fait le boudin?

Once you abandon openness as an operating principle, why bother keeping it as an aesthetic?

I haven't spent much time in Montreal since leaving in 2011-12. One thing I gather, perhaps inaccurately, is that English is somewhat on the rise, but the modality is a little different, and it is more "English in Amsterdam or Stockholm" than "English as a road to the Canadian mainstream". The institutions are Quebecois (the "separation actually happened" thesis) and the rest is a function of international language-market forces.

If this is true, I wonder what the future might hold. You could never set up a Bill 101 in Stockholm. It would be seen as culturally unnecessary, economically counter-productive and a little ugly in terms of the "Sverigebilden" -- the image of Sweden held by the world.

But Sweden is a sovereign country. What if it were somehow part of the UK? It would probably be different.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Cela incitera-t-il les électeurs Anglo-Saxons à voter pour le Parti Libéral?

Won't change anything, they all already vote Red anyway! (Quebec's Anglo-Saxons would cast their ballots for a red Canada Post mailbox as the candidate, as PET famously pointed out.)

With a handful of exceptions -- my Anglo ex-gf for example, a JT hater and kinda Convoy fan and who somewhat likes Trump and Poilievre (for being "unconventional" and thus "refreshing" politicians), probably will vote for the current Reform-style version of the CPC, or even for the PPC! (probably not but I could see it.)

[MolsonExport]

I guess if it is ok to paint all Quebec Anglos with one brush, then it is ok to paint all Quebecois with one brush, eh?

And there is nothing refreshing about the smell of Trump's diaper.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Loco101

If things are currently that rough in Quebec then support for sovereignty would be higher than 32% and rightly so.

Let's see after next year's election. The people are absolutely fed up with the CAQ and the status quo.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I guess if it is ok to paint all Quebec Anglos with one brush, then it is ok to paint all Quebecois with one brush, eh?

For voting behaviors, if Quebecois were a reliable voting block, then yes. The Mtl Island's "Red Mailbox" ridings, that's just a fact, it's never going to be "not okay" to point out that they are total red strongholds because Mtl Anglos-Allos always vote LPC and LPQ. It's merely reality.

Similarly, it's okay to "paint with one brush" the electors of Grande Prairie, AB as reliable blue voters. That's what they are...

[lio45]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I guess Acajack and lio can't complain about being called "French" anymore..

I'm actually half-French. In Acajack's case you'd obviously be wrong. (It's the same difference in accuracy between calling you "British" vs calling Montreal-raised kool maudit "British". In the latter case you'd inadvertently be somewhat correct.)