Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The Supreme Court of Canada will announce next Thursday morning whether it will agree to hear the challenge of Quebec's Bill 21 on secularism (laïcité).

News like that would almost feel reassuring these days, wouldn't they?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The general consensus here is that the EU countries will just cave in, because their security depends too much on the US. They will accept just anything Trump will ask, with only token resistance if he's really serious.

I find that abject, but what can I say. It's not France's fault. We are fully independent from the US (thanks to de Gaulle), with our own nuclear deterrent, our own fighter jets, nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, etc, so we could resist Trump, but the other European countries have never listened to France (they distrust us ever since Louis XIV and Napoleon), and they put all their eggs in the US basket, so now they are prisoner of whatever Trump decides, and France alone cannot change Europe.


Ignatieff in that interview said the Canadian leadership should organize an international conference with European countries, Mexico, Panama, to make a stand against Trump. He also thinks Canada should be "playing hard ball" (I quote) and stop exporting gas and oil to the US to hurt them (I was thinking wow... pretty bold, but which Canadian PM would ever dare to do that?).

Perhaps one who is soon leaving office and doesn't have much to lose?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In short, anyone who cares about Bill 21 in the ROC is against it. Most don't care but it could be used as a convenient cudgel against Quebec anyway.

You guys are the "squeaky bit" in Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

When I was a kid I remember they had documentaries on French TV explaining how depressions are high in Québec due to long winters, with lots of suicides. They also showed that underground city that they built in the center of Montréal to remain indoor during the coldest days. I remember I found that crazy.

I remember that too.

But suicide rates have plummeted since then.

Guess it wasn’t the weather.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Perhaps one who is soon leaving office and doesn't have much to lose?

The rest of the Canadian (Anglo) ruling class would allow him to do that?? Alberta?

Plus if he does that, Trump will see it as a declaration of war (figuratively speaking) and overreact.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The rest of the Canadian (Anglo) ruling class would allow him to do that?? Alberta?

Plus if he does that, Trump will see it as a declaration of war (figuratively speaking) and overreact.

Alberta probably has no way to stop him, at least in the short term. This would only happen, however, if Trump had effectively already "declared war" and after a series of increasingly tough measures to try to ratchet up the pressure, so it's not imminent. The Canadian government tends to wield a scalpel and would bring out the hatchets only if needed as part of a larger strategy.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Alberta probably has no way to stop him, at least in the short term. This would only happen, however, if Trump had effectively already "declared war" and after a series of increasingly tough measures to try to ratchet up the pressure, so it's not imminent. The Canadian government tends to wield a scalpel and would bring out the hatchets only if needed as part of a larger strategy.

If true, Lio's trips to the US are soon coming to an end... Trump would probably ban Canadian citizens from entering the US and/or using US airports.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

If true, Lio's trips to the US are soon coming to an end... Trump would probably ban Canadian citizens from entering the US and/or using US airports.

Most of my circle refuse to go the the States in any event, so no biggie there.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Most of my circle refuse to go the the States in any event, so no biggie there.

Canadians (at least Anglo-Canadians) would die if they were never again allowed to enter the US. Confined to your northern icy fringes and just a few tiny Caribbean islands really? (provided Trump even allows Air Canada to fly over the US)

I think as a people only the Québécois could survive with the idea of never again visiting the US (and yet even for them it would hurt), but the Anglo-Canadians, seriously??

[New Brisavoine]

British sense of humor.

[New Brisavoine]

And that's... French sense of humor. (yeah, like many French elites, he loves to write in English on social networks... these guys (he's a prominent international policy analyst in Paris) would never have resisted 200 years of Anglo-domination really)

[someone123]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Canadians (at least Anglo-Canadians) would die if they were never again allowed to enter the US. Confined to your northern icy fringes and just a few tiny Caribbean islands really? (provided Trump even allows Air Canada to fly over the US)

I think as a people only the Québécois could survive with the idea of never again visiting the US (and yet even for them it would hurt), but the Anglo-Canadians, seriously??

This seems like a pretty odd perspective. There are some border areas where people drive to the US a lot. There are also a lot of Canadians with no passport, and Canadians who travel to some other country that is not the USA (for example those from China or India who can't easily get US visas). I would guess that the median Newfoundlander isn't regularly in the US.

I go to the US pretty often and I'd like to see the border get easier to cross rather than harder to cross but I don't really get the northern icy fringes point. For one thing BC is basically the same as Paris. But for another you have to go pretty far to get to subtropical parts of the USA and in the winter you might as well go to Mexico or some other country for more interesting culture and actual warm beach weather in winter, in my opinion. It does not really make sense to go to Portland or San Francisco or Nashville as a snowbird. It is not much harder to go to the Caribbean than Southern Florida.

"Canada: hold my beer poutine" could have been tweeted by an American circa 2010-2020. In fact it probably was.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't really get the northern icy fringes point. For one thing BC is basically the same as Paris.

First of all Paris is slightly warmer and much drier than Vancouver (for example in January the average temperature is +5.4C in Paris vs +4.1C in Vancouver; Spring comes earlier in Paris, with +12.2C average in April, vs +9.4C in Vancouver, summer lasts longer, with +17.2C in September, vs +15.2C in Vancouver, there is far less rain, with 634 mm of precipitation in a year, vs 1,160 mm in Vancouver, etc).

But above all, Paris is to the north of a country which also includes the French Riviera, Corsica, Languedoc, etc. And with Schengen we can travel passport free to Southern Spain, Southern Italy, Greece, which is essentially the new south of our "country".

It would be extremely different if the border beyond which we would need a passport was only 30 km south of Paris. In that case yes, it would very much feel like being confined in some northern fringes (I can't even imagine it). Whereas I can hop in a TGV and be in Bordeaux, southern France, in just 2 hours at 300 km/h speed, no passport, no ID card, no plane boarding. That's why although we live quite far north (and most people don't like it), we don't feel like we're prisoner of the north.

In Canada, if the US cuts access to their territory (and they would also probably cut access to their airspace), you'd find yourself quite isolated up north. Imagine people living in Toronto. Not only goodbye to those trips to Florida, but also most probably goodbye to any trip to the Caribbean or Latin America, because they would require an enormous detour around the landmass of the US which would make them far too costly. There would remain only flights to far-away Europe and Asia, but that's not some weekend getaways (and if Trump gets Greenland, then Air Canada couldn't fly above Greenland anymore, making flights to Europe longer and more costly).

Not sure you wanna go down that route...

[Laceoflight]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Canadians (at least Anglo-Canadians) would die if they were never again allowed to enter the US. Confined to your northern icy fringes and just a few tiny Caribbean islands really? (provided Trump even allows Air Canada to fly over the US)

I think as a people only the Québécois could survive with the idea of never again visiting the US (and yet even for them it would hurt), but the Anglo-Canadians, seriously??

Do you really think that hundreds of thousands of Québécois would not die if they were told to stop going to Fort Lauderdale or to Old Orchard? I think you see us as a more virtuous people than we really are You need to watch La Florida (realisateur : George Mihalka) to understand this particular cultural trait "we" have as a people.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

...In Canada, if the US cuts access to their territory (and they would also probably cut access to their airspace), you'd find yourself quite isolated up north. Imagine people living in Toronto. Not only goodbye to those trips to Florida, but also most probably goodbye to any trip to the Caribbean or Latin America, because they would require an enormous detour around the landmass of the US which would make them far too costly. There would remain only flights to far-away Europe and Asia, but that's not some weekend getaways (and if Trump gets Greenland, then Air Canada couldn't fly above Greenland anymore, making flights to Europe longer and more costly)...

This would backfire against the US because they'd lose access to Canadian airspace at the same time. That would impact US international flights.

[Acajack]

If Canada-US relations deteriorate to the point of Canadian planes not being able to fly southwards, we will have bigger issues than not being able to get summer sun in the winter.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

This would backfire against the US because they'd lose access to Canadian airspace at the same time. That would impact US international flights.

But Canada would be impacted far more, which is the point, like tariffs which also impact the US, but less than Canada.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If Canada-US relations deteriorate to the point of Canadian planes not being able to fly southwards, we will have bigger issues than not being able to get summer sun in the winter.

Such as?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Such as?

The plunging of our economy into a deep recession?

[New Brisavoine]

I would argue that being banned from US airspace is worse than recession. Recessions come and go. Being curtailed in once freedom of movement is worse.