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  #4681  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2024, 10:35 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Originally Posted by Gresto View Post
I was going to make that point as well. If I were to insist on purchasing things only from people I agree with politically, and boycotting those I don't, I would end up with a whole lot of Ben & Jerry's ice cream and Dan Price's... whatever it is he does. There is simply no avoiding being a customer of some awful people. The distinction with Tesla and Musk is that he is actively giving lots of money, his customers' money, to this despicable creature's political campaign. This is a moral conundrum for non-Trumpian Tesla owners.
At the end of the day, it’s just a personal choice, but most people don’t care, and will just buy whatever they like or can afford. It’s a great message board discussion, but it doesn’t mean much in the real world.
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  #4682  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2024, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
....100% EVs are simply too problematic, inconvenient, and expensive for the average buyer. The technology is advancing fast but as it stands now, they simply are not worth the bother and certainly aren't worth the price.
News flash: Ssiguy doesn't like electric cars. Details at 11.
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  #4683  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2024, 11:19 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is online now
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
At the end of the day, it’s just a personal choice, but most people don’t care, and will just buy whatever they like or can afford. It’s a great message board discussion, but it doesn’t mean much in the real world.
This ignores the importance of image for a vehicle. I know some of us don't care about that or at least tell us that but a lot of a vehicle purchase is how the world sees us and how we see ourselves in the world. Even the biggest zionist can scarf down a pint of Ben and Jerry's without judgement.
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  #4684  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2024, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post

100% EVs are simply too problematic, inconvenient, and expensive for the average buyer. The technology is advancing fast but as it stands now, they simply are not worth the bother and certainly aren't worth the price.
You left a very similar flaming bag of poo on the doorstep here in May, and before that in March, and I'm guessing there was another in January. Can we expect your calendar to pop up a reminder in September "must shitpost the ev thread"?
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Last edited by Changing City; Jul 21, 2024 at 11:38 PM.
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  #4685  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2024, 11:28 PM
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wrong thread
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  #4686  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2024, 12:54 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
You left a very similar flaming bag of poo on the doorstep here in May, and before that in March, and I'm guessing there was another in January. Can we expect your calendar to pop up a reminder in September "must shitpost the ev thread"?
Does it whenever this thread is active and he's got nothing substantive to contribute. Like an itch he must scratch.
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  #4687  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2024, 1:13 AM
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Nouvellecosse Nouvellecosse is offline
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
This ignores the importance of image for a vehicle. I know some of us don't care about that or at least tell us that but a lot of a vehicle purchase is how the world sees us and how we see ourselves in the world. Even the biggest zionist can scarf down a pint of Ben and Jerry's without judgement.
It also ignores that basically nothing that most individual people do means much in the real world because there's millions of people in most major countries and billions of people in the world, most of whom don't really have much power or influence. So therefore voting also doesn't mean much in the real world because your vote is just one of millions, and in the first-pass-the-post system it may very well be irrelevant. So that would imply that nobody should bother voting. And also that volunteering or donating to charity doesn't mean much because your time or money is just a drop in the ocean of what's needed and you can't single-highhandedly fix the world's problems so you shouldn't bother doing that either.

That's a very common genre of semi-nihilism which implies that nothing one does really matters because each person is such a small piece of the whole. But the correct response is the old slogan "think globally and act locally." You don't have much say in the world as an individual but you do have some. If someone is starving then an individual grain of rice is basically irrelevant and will not save them. But that doesn't mean that combining many grains into a large bag of rice is irrelevant. But if everyone concludes that nothing anyone does is relevant then no one takes any responsibility and positive change never happens.

In the case of making a large purchase like a high or mid end new car, an individual actually has disproportionate influence. According to a quick Google search, Tesla sold just over 1.8 million cars in 2023. By comparison, there were about 17.2 million votes cast in the 2021 federal election. So each Tesla purchase is a much bigger piece of Tesla's profits than each vote is in the governments rise to power. Plus, the majority of people in the world cannot afford any new car let alone a new Tesla. So being able to afford one gives you more power and influence over what large corporations do than the vast majority of people on earth. Much more so with something like cars because compared to things like toilet paper, cell phones or t-shirts, there is a lot of profit on a relatively small number of sales. So each individual sale is much more significant to the company.

So it's true that it is a personal choice, but it's also a significant opportunity which does offer some the greatest ability to influence the real world that an individual can have. At least without say, becoming an influential celebrity, a wealthy business person, being elected to political office, or devoting one's life to charity.
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  #4688  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2024, 2:31 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
This ignores the importance of image for a vehicle. I know some of us don't care about that or at least tell us that but a lot of a vehicle purchase is how the world sees us and how we see ourselves in the world. Even the biggest zionist can scarf down a pint of Ben and Jerry's without judgement.
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
It also ignores that basically nothing that most individual people do means much in the real world because there's millions of people in most major countries and billions of people in the world, most of whom don't really have much power or influence. So therefore voting also doesn't mean much in the real world because your vote is just one of millions, and in the first-pass-the-post system it may very well be irrelevant. So that would imply that nobody should bother voting. And also that volunteering or donating to charity doesn't mean much because your time or money is just a drop in the ocean of what's needed and you can't single-highhandedly fix the world's problems so you shouldn't bother doing that either.

That's a very common genre of semi-nihilism which implies that nothing one does really matters because each person is such a small piece of the whole. But the correct response is the old slogan "think globally and act locally." You don't have much say in the world as an individual but you do have some. If someone is starving then an individual grain of rice is basically irrelevant and will not save them. But that doesn't mean that combining many grains into a large bag of rice is irrelevant. But if everyone concludes that nothing anyone does is relevant then no one takes any responsibility and positive change never happens.

In the case of making a large purchase like a high or mid end new car, an individual actually has disproportionate influence. According to a quick Google search, Tesla sold just over 1.8 million cars in 2023. By comparison, there were about 17.2 million votes cast in the 2021 federal election. So each Tesla purchase is a much bigger piece of Tesla's profits than each vote is in the governments rise to power. Plus, the majority of people in the world cannot afford any new car let alone a new Tesla. So being able to afford one gives you more power and influence over what large corporations do than the vast majority of people on earth. Much more so with something like cars because compared to things like toilet paper, cell phones or t-shirts, there is a lot of profit on a relatively small number of sales. So each individual sale is much more significant to the company.

So it's true that it is a personal choice, but it's also a significant opportunity which does offer some the greatest ability to influence the real world that an individual can have. At least without say, becoming an influential celebrity, a wealthy business person, being elected to political office, or devoting one's life to charity.
It's interesting how a comment can be interpreted. Neither of these comments are counter arguing any point I was trying to make.

FWIW, as mentioned, I don't like Musk or how he uses his money and power to attempt to influence the discourse (and worse) in the world. I don't ever intend to buy a Tesla because of that. Others here don't subscribe to this view, and that's their right - i.e. it's a personal choice. It's not up to me or you to judge whether they are "right" or "wrong", as peoples' choices are personal and complex.

In the real world, however, people won't care whether Musk's douchebagness is enough to keep me from buying a Tesla. They will follow their own beliefs, or will not care. Argue all you want, that's how it is. Right or wrong? I guess that's up to you to judge (which you will, or already have, actually).
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  #4689  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2024, 2:35 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
This is what I find so perplexing about those kind of responses. They totally miss the entire point. It has nothing to do with the company or owner being morally good in terms of what they're thinking or feeling. It's about what they're doing and saying. If there's one person or company who is spreading hate, harmful conspiracy theories or whatever and another who isn't, then what difference does it make if the one who isn't secretly shares the same views? As long as it stays in their heads or behind closed doors it doesn't matter. I would absolutely do business with the one not openly endorsing that stuff over the one actively promoting it. Because the point is to discourage people with power and platforms from using that power to promote destructive things.
I'm not sure whether you were arguing with or against my comment, but I mostly agree with your statements. What matters is how they are trying to influence the world, not what their personal thoughts and beliefs might be.
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  #4690  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2024, 2:36 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
To be fair a lot of B list Silicon Valley douchebags are like Musk. They are less well known. That's the difference. If you're never heard of this, it's what they all subscribe to:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TESCREAL

Modern day Eugenics using things like climate change and Singularity as justification.
That's interesting, and no, I had never heard of this. Thanks for the info.
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  #4691  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2024, 5:09 AM
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
It's interesting how a comment can be interpreted. Neither of these comments are counter arguing any point I was trying to make.

FWIW, as mentioned, I don't like Musk or how he uses his money and power to attempt to influence the discourse (and worse) in the world. I don't ever intend to buy a Tesla because of that. Others here don't subscribe to this view, and that's their right - i.e. it's a personal choice. It's not up to me or you to judge whether they are "right" or "wrong", as peoples' choices are personal and complex.

In the real world, however, people won't care whether Musk's douchebagness is enough to keep me from buying a Tesla. They will follow their own beliefs, or will not care. Argue all you want, that's how it is. Right or wrong? I guess that's up to you to judge (which you will, or already have, actually).
To be clear I wasn't suggesting that it isn't people's right to make their own decision; I was simply pointing out that they have an opportunity to exert influence that they may not recognize. Obviously if someone's values aren't in conflict with what a business person like Musk is doing then the point is moot. But I was referring specifically to people who do care and may feel dis-empowered or dis-inclined to use their leverage for some reason.

The only thing I don't agree with is that it's impossible to influence people which is how I interpret the statement "Argue all you want, that's how it is." I do think it's possible to change minds or at least plant a mental seed that may bear fruit later on. Yes there are certainly people who can not be swayed by any amount of facts or reasoning once they've come to a conclusion and I've met them myself. But I still believe that they're not in the majority, and the moment that changes is the moment I'll commit suicide because I have no interest in living in that world.
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  #4692  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2024, 12:57 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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That statement meant that, unless you are a person with massive public influence (like Musk, but on the other side of the belief spectrum), you can argue all day on SSP, but have little to no influence on the end result.

This is not saying that you should give up, or not try, but you still have to understand the reality of the situation. The people who have strong beliefs on the other side also believe that they are right and virtuous, and will believe that your logic is flawed, leading you to incorrect conclusions.

And here you have the world of today, and why people flock to echo chambers that reinforce the ideas that they cling to. I don’t like it, and wish people could be more open minded, but for me moment that’s how I see it. YMMV.
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  #4693  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2024, 1:14 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is online now
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
To be fair a lot of B list Silicon Valley douchebags are like Musk. They are less well known. That's the difference. If you're never heard of this, it's what they all subscribe to:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TESCREAL

Modern day Eugenics using things like climate change and Singularity as justification.
They all subsribe to this obscure theory? This lumping anyone together who doesn't believe ever difference in outcome is a result of racism and patriarchy is why Trump is popular. They are uber meritocracy loving as highly intelligent and mostly motivated they have little patience for those who don't suceed. Some come from less affluent backgrounds or are immigrants and therfore thing they had no advantages ignoring other advantages like mostly parents that valued education. But they are closer to the truth on why the tech workforce looks like it does than the DEI crowd.
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  #4694  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2024, 2:54 PM
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
That statement meant that, unless you are a person with massive public influence (like Musk, but on the other side of the belief spectrum), you can argue all day on SSP, but have little to no influence on the end result.

This is not saying that you should give up, or not try, but you still have to understand the reality of the situation. The people who have strong beliefs on the other side also believe that they are right and virtuous, and will believe that your logic is flawed, leading you to incorrect conclusions.

And here you have the world of today, and why people flock to echo chambers that reinforce the ideas that they cling to. I don’t like it, and wish people could be more open minded, but for me moment that’s how I see it. YMMV.
So you were just reiterating what I was saying with the bag of rice analogy. Obviously I agree in that case. Most of us are just a single grain lol.
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  #4695  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2024, 3:13 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
They all subsribe to this obscure theory? This lumping anyone together who doesn't believe ever difference in outcome is a result of racism and patriarchy is why Trump is popular. They are uber meritocracy loving as highly intelligent and mostly motivated they have little patience for those who don't suceed. Some come from less affluent backgrounds or are immigrants and therfore thing they had no advantages ignoring other advantages like mostly parents that valued education. But they are closer to the truth on why the tech workforce looks like it does than the DEI crowd.
All? No. A lot of those B listers? Definitely. The less well known they are, the more obscure their beliefs. And very grift adjacent. Lots of them pushing SPACs.

You're pretty touchy these days. Are we touching a nerve discussing this?
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  #4696  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2024, 3:40 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is online now
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
All? No. A lot of those B listers? Definitely. The less well known they are, the more obscure their beliefs. And very grift adjacent. Lots of them pushing SPACs.

You're pretty touchy these days. Are we touching a nerve discussing this?
Not particularly touchy. I think for sure there are a lot anti DEI. Any group of white males who is in a DEI rampant industry will trend this way. The US election dynamics means a lot of them are still democrats though at the end of the day. I worked in high tech in California and my ex colleagues facebook still look pretty pro-democrat. That said if I think about it most aren't white straight males.

Here in Canada though PP doesn't focus on anti-wokeness some in his party do and almost most of the white men I know many who are formerly very left are voting Conservative. Mostly because of the DEI/virtue signalling though a few are still leftist but somehow think he's failed and won't vote NDP.
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  #4697  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2024, 4:02 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Virtually every automakers now has offerings at least on par with 2018 Teslas in terms of range and basic automation. So if that worked for you, there's just no need to buy a Tesla. And post 2025, a lot of automakers are finally moving to their Gen 2 or Gen 3 EVs with lessons learned incorporated. I would rather drive an EV a generation behind than give Musk money. I might consider Tesla again if he's at just removed as CEO.
I'm aware of what's out there and sorry no they are not close. They may be coming, but I'm talking about what's out today.

I'm not willing to drive a generation behind just to spite Musk.
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  #4698  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2024, 4:02 PM
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Then we can discount any future woke comments from you? After all, if you’re not willing to put your money where your mouth is….
What woke comments?

I already discount your comments because you're a racist west side NIMBY.
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  #4699  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2024, 4:04 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
I would argue that not buying a Tesla because of Elon'e politics, but happily buying another big auto company's products is hypocritical. It's not like billionaire CEOs of any kind are good guys.
Yeah thanks. I can buy a Tesla while not liking Musk. Pretty easy. I did the same with Microsoft products when Gates was pretty reviled in the 90s.
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  #4700  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2024, 4:30 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
So you were just reiterating what I was saying with the bag of rice analogy. Obviously I agree in that case. Most of us are just a single grain lol.
No, I thought I was providing clarity for this part of your post:
Quote:
The only thing I don't agree with is that it's impossible to influence people which is how I interpret the statement "Argue all you want, that's how it is." I do think it's possible to change minds or at least plant a mental seed that may bear fruit later on. Yes there are certainly people who can not be swayed by any amount of facts or reasoning once they've come to a conclusion and I've met them myself. But I still believe that they're not in the majority, and the moment that changes is the moment I'll commit suicide because I have no interest in living in that world.
Apparently, I was unsuccessful.
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