Perimeter Highway | Winnipeg

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

For the amount of $$$ we are spending on this project, we could probably have built diamond interchanges at Dugald, St,Anne's, Gunn, Wenzel, and Pipeline.

100% correct. They're about to squander $150-200m on the St Annes Interchange too. Absolute insanity.

Rural overpasses should be $20m or less.
Quasi urban like Perimeter should be $20-50m.
Full urban should be sub $100m depending on complexity.

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Imagine the reaction if Manitoba spent $1.88B to build a new bypass similar to what was just completed in Regina.

It's coming. I think the full Perimeter Plan proposed will be pushing $4 billion. Completely wasteful idiocy..

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

100% correct. They're about to squander $150-200m on the St Annes Interchange too. Absolute insanity.

Rural overpasses should be $20m or less.
Quasi urban like Perimeter should be $20-50m.
Full urban should be sub $100m depending on complexity.




It's coming. I think the full Perimeter Plan proposed will be pushing $4 billion. Completely wasteful idiocy..

For comparison sakes, look at this elaborate diamond overpass in Ontario in construction (cost: $55 million)



https://globalnews.ca/news/9102812/o...iagara-region/

Why is it going to cost 3 times as much to build a less elaborate diamond interchance in Manitoba than on a major freeway in Ontario?

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

For comparison sakes, look at this elaborate diamond overpass in Ontario in construction (cost: $55 million)

Yup, and that's pretty urban (challenging) and over 6-lanes. More challenging than St Mary's. There is absolutely no reason for the insanity going on here in MB. It's corrupt or incompetent. No other explanation, and we need to course correct it before they squander more money on the big ones (perimeter).

I want all the needed overpasses, believe me. But I don't want them paying 3-5x the price that they need to.

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

For comparison sakes, look at this elaborate diamond overpass in Ontario in construction (cost: $55 million)



https://globalnews.ca/news/9102812/o...iagara-region/

Why is it going to cost 3 times as much to build a less elaborate diamond interchance in Manitoba than on a major freeway in Ontario?

I do believe Biff was saying the reconstruction of the Perimeter roadways adds a significant cost to the project. Plus traffic management and detouring on the main thoroughfare etc...

That Niagara project looks like it was just a bridge construction. QEW wasn't rerouted or anything.

And the St Anne's interchange includes the rail overpass to the east, which will involve some form of temporary lanes of travel to accommodate the structure construction. So two structures, one being in the middle of the main highway.

I'm no expert though. Just tossing out factors that might justify a higher price, but how much higher, I don't know.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by WildCake

I do believe Biff was saying the reconstruction of the Perimeter roadways adds a significant cost to the project. Plus traffic management and detouring on the main thoroughfare etc...

That Niagara project looks like it was just a bridge construction. QEW wasn't rerouted or anything.

And the St Anne's interchange includes the rail overpass to the east, which will involve some form of temporary lanes of travel to accommodate the structure construction. So two structures, one being in the middle of the main highway.

I'm no expert though. Just tossing out factors that might justify a higher price, but how much higher, I don't know.

It was more that "just a bridge construction". Here are the details of the entire project: https://www.millergroup.ca/projects/...le-interchange

[plrh]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

It was more that "just a bridge construction". Here are the details of the entire project: https://www.millergroup.ca/projects/...le-interchange

But if Miller bids on highway projects in Manitoba, why wouldn't their price be as low here? They did build a large part of the Centreport road. Governments do not control the price of construction, construction companies do (for the most part).

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by plrh

But if Miller bids on highway projects in Manitoba, why wouldn't their price be as low here? They did build a large part of the Centreport road. Governments do not control the price of construction, construction companies do (for the most part).

That's a good question. Do not know how MTO issues tenders for highway construction projects vs. Manitoba.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by plrh

But if Miller bids on highway projects in Manitoba, why wouldn't their price be as low here?

Possible explanations:

-Collusion and gouging within the construction industry.
-Shortages within the construction sector.
-Mismanagement and inefficiency by construction companies.
-Favoritism to certain bidders.
-Regulatory and bureaucratic burdens (labor, land, mgmt, tendering, etc).
-Overly elaborate road designs.

[bomberjet]

Same comment as the roads thread. The bolded statement by bodaggin.

[cllew]

This is a little old but its a 2023 TAC paper on the PTH 101 / CenterPort interchange planning

http://conf.tac-atc.ca/english/annua.../mcritchie.pdf

[plrh]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

Possible explanations:

-Collusion and gouging within the construction industry.
-Shortages within the construction sector.
-Mismanagement and inefficiency by construction companies.
-Favoritism to certain bidders.
-Regulatory and bureaucratic burdens (labor, land, mgmt, tendering, etc).
-Overly elaborate road designs.

I think that MB projects should separate the roads jobs from the bridge jobs. That's the biggest problem. There are miles of all new roadway on the St. Mary's project. The price of that job has to be 30% roadway.
There might be favourites for MTI to work with but it would be very difficult to select a bidder that isn't the lowest.
Another problem is that in Manitoba we pay more for cement and for asphalt oil because of our small market size. If there is any collusion, it's from material suppliers.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by plrh

There are miles of all new roadway on the St. Mary's project. The price of that job has to be 30% roadway.

Good points in here. The cost of these access roads don't add up to me either though. Watch miners or loggers build a road. They'll carve out a new road on the side of a mountain in a day. Aside from the top 2 feet of processed courses, building overpass access roads is just moving dirt.

Earthmoving isn't rocket science, and 90% of the time the material exists on site. We're not doing it right. Either equipment is undersized, work is constrained, it's over-imagineered, it's poorly planned/coordinated. Something isn't right to cost this much and take this long on simple access roads.

[Mr Tall Forehead]

https://news.gov.mb.ca/news/?archive=&item=64297

"In addition, construction continues for the St. Mary’s Road and PTH 100 Interchange project, planned to open to traffic later this year. The PTH 3 (McGillivray Boulevard) and PTH 100 interchange project is currently in design and award of the construction contract is anticipated in early 2025, the minister added."

Interesting. Had the current provincial government committed to proceeding with the Perimeter interchange plans developed under former government publicly before?

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by Mr Tall Forehead

https://news.gov.mb.ca/news/?archive=&item=64297
Interesting. Had the current provincial government committed to proceeding with the Perimeter interchange plans developed under former government publicly before?

The PCs finished off the 59/101 interchange in 2018 that was started under the Selinger government, although the actual construction work had already started in the fall before they took power. IIRC there were a few on this forum that thought they might go as far as cancelling the project given how strongly they were pushing the hack and slash budget as their main election platform. I'm guessing there were already a lot of sunk costs and the financial penalties of scrapping the construction contract would have been illogical to letting the project go ahead.

I don't think it would be uncommon for a ruling government to continue capital projects under a previous government that still align with their platform/ideology.

[bodaggin]

How do these planners screw these designs up so bad? Look at the wasted land, miles of unneeded service roads. Duplicate access roads. What are these planners smoking?

My design below theirs. Uses all existing Perimeter roads to prevent building new roads for no reason! Watch their proposed design push $150-200m price tag when it could be $60-80m with a proper simple design. This stupidy needs to stop.

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by Mr Tall Forehead

https://news.gov.mb.ca/news/?archive=&item=64297

"In addition, construction continues for the St. Mary’s Road and PTH 100 Interchange project, planned to open to traffic later this year. The PTH 3 (McGillivray Boulevard) and PTH 100 interchange project is currently in design and award of the construction contract is anticipated in early 2025, the minister added."

Interesting. Had the current provincial government committed to proceeding with the Perimeter interchange plans developed under former government publicly before?

Yes as wild cake described. It's also debatable the NDP actually started St Mary's and even McGillivray prior to the PC's taking office with initiation of major projects on the South Perimeter. It is nice to see this non-partisan nature of highway investment.

The Lake Manitoba and Lake St Martin flood channels are another story as we head back into the wet cycle.

[plrh]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

Good points in here. The cost of these access roads don't add up to me either though. Watch miners or loggers build a road. They'll carve out a new road on the side of a mountain in a day. Aside from the top 2 feet of processed courses, building overpass access roads is just moving dirt.

Earthmoving isn't rocket science, and 90% of the time the material exists on site. We're not doing it right. Either equipment is undersized, work is constrained, it's over-imagineered, it's poorly planned/coordinated. Something isn't right to cost this much and take this long on simple access roads.

Placing dirt is several times more expensive in MB than in some provinces. Hitting optimal moisture content on every lift is very difficult. If it rains, it can take a week to get the moisture out to achieve compaction. Flatiron lost millions on the 59 and 101 job because of this. They assumed that MB mud is placed similarly to AB mud. Placing mud is the most expensive part of building overpasses in Manitoba. That's why they placed all granular material for the St. Mary's project, and removed all of the clay.

[FactaNV]

Originally Posted by plrh

Placing dirt is several times more expensive in MB than in some provinces. Hitting optimal moisture content on every lift is very difficult. If it rains, it can take a week to get the moisture out to achieve compaction. Flatiron lost millions on the 59 and 101 job because of this. They assumed that MB mud is placed similarly to AB mud. Placing mud is the most expensive part of building overpasses in Manitoba. That's why they placed all granular material for the St. Mary's project, and removed all of the clay.

Manitoba Gumbo, the gift that keeps giving.

[cllew]

didn't SNC Lavalin Constructors Pacific (Pacific) also run into similar problems on the 101/Centerport Canada way interchange?

[Dengler Avenue]

^ All of the issues above may well be why M.T.I. is hesitant to putting an interchange at Deacon’s Corners.
Quite frankly, I think that the redesign of Perimeter Highway & TCH East needs some rethinking, and that it needs to be done in conjunction with Deacon’s Corners. Traffic lights are annoying yes, but that area needs to be put on hold for now.