Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[dleung]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, citizenship and the associated right to vote is what I had in mind, as well as of course the significant increase in people entering the country and who will acquire that privilege in the coming years.

Though now that you mention it there is even a trend in western countries that is pushing for extending the right to vote to non-citizens.

So stay tuned, I guess.

Lol, what do the GOP-style "open borders" strawmen above have to do with your original complaint about the "pecking order" and the ancestor-based justification for it?

Even if the government quit its recent cocaine addiction and went back to sensibly taking just the best and brightest, it still doesn't seem like an equal society will cut it for you

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Probably not. Mélenchon is way more aggressive and angry than any mainstream Quebec politician we have. To this day I still can't believe that video I saw where he made fun of that reporter's accent and pretended not to understand her.

Seeing sporadic reports of candidates and politicians in France being randomly attacked, either verbally or physically.

So far the targets all seem to be from the Rassemblement National (the Le Pen side) or Macron's side.

Not saying these are members of Mélenchon's party but it appears likely they are at least sympathetic to his NFP bloc.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dleung

Lol, what do the GOP-style "open borders" strawmen above have to do with your original complaint about the "pecking order" and the ancestor-based justification for it?

Even if the government quit its recent cocaine addiction and went back to sensibly taking just the best and brightest, it still doesn't seem like an equal society will cut it for you

I don't happen to think there should be a Canadian pecking order, but I do believe that if there is one (and lots of people seem to want that) that French Canadians should occupy a lower rung on it.

BTW you quoted something that isn't from me.

[1overcosc]

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[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's fascinating how non-British or un-British Anglo-Canadians and Anglo-Canada are when you consider how recent the British roots of millions of people are, compared to how to distant the roots of French Canadians in France are. (And of course the fact that Canada still has legal ties to the British monarchy.)

I bet you François Legault doesn't have any known relatives in France at all, and this is basically the case for all French Canadians except for a handful of people where fairly recent (think a couple of decades) immigration is what is involved.

Whereas Doug Ford's grandparents were born in England. He is just a bit older than me, so he would likely have known a number of British members of his family as a child.

Since I grew up in Anglo-Canada, I know how common this is. Many of my classmates had British parents and even more of them had British grandparents.

This just doesn't exist for French Canadians.

The UK was the most common country of origin for foreign born Canadians until pretty recently (the 2011 census, IIRC). Huge numbers of Brits moved to Canada long after the initial colonization. There was big wave of British immigrants after WW2 and even in the modern era the UK is consistently one of the top ten countries of origin for new immigrants to Canada. As recently as 2008 it was even in the top five.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Seeing sporadic reports of candidates and politicians in France being randomly attacked, either verbally or physically.

So far the targets all seem to be from the Rassemblement National (the Le Pen side) or Macron's side.

Not saying these are members of Mélenchon's party but it appears likely they are at least sympathetic to his NFP bloc.

I could see significant turmoil after the second round.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I could see significant turmoil after the second round.

Just saw some more reports of campaign workers for Macron ministers getting physically assaulted.

Given who we can assume is generally behind these attacks, it's kind of bizarre that there is so much focus on the Macron camp, as opposed to the pure evil arch-enemy Rassemblement National (Le Pen) camp.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't happen to think there should be a Canadian pecking order, but I do believe that if there is one (and lots of people seem to want that) that French Canadians should occupy a lower rung on it.

BTW you quoted something that isn't from me.

Overall, perhaps, but the elite ones have always had a place at the table.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Just saw some more reports of campaign workers for Macron ministers getting physically assaulted.

Given who we can assume is generally behind these attacks, it's kind of bizarre that there is so much focus on the Macron camp, as opposed to the pure evil arch-enemy Rassemblement National (Le Pen) camp.

Actually most the incidents have been due to far-left thugs, the so-called "antifas", who pretend to be anti-fascist but use fascist methods themselves.

The grossest case has been an antisemitic attack by 8 members of a so-called anti-fascist far-left group of vigilantes called "La Jeune Garde": these "antifas" physically attacked a 15 y/o teenager in the Métro of Paris whom they accused of belonging to the Jewish Defense League. The teenager was hit and forced to shout "Long live Palestine!"

At the moment those groups of far-left activists and vigilantes are more dangerous and more active than far-right groups. They have attacked several politicians from Marine Le Pen's party who were campaigning on market squares throughout France. I wouldn't be surprised if they are also responsible for the attack on one Macron minister yesterday, since they see Macron and his government as capitalist evil + supporters of Israel's so-called "genocide" in Gaza.

[New Brisavoine]

Ah, actually the latest news is the people who attacked the minister from Macron's government (what you saw on television in Québec... it wasn't just campaign workers, but also the minister herself, a young woman called Prisca Thévenot (née Balasoobramanen), who is herself the daughter of Mauritian immigrants of Tamil ancestry), so the people who attacked her (in a middle class suburb of Paris where she was campaigning, not a working-class or dangerous part of the banlieue at all) were... 3 Maghreban teenagers and 1 Ivorian teenager. They've been found thanks to video surveillance (since the municipality where she was campaigning is a right-wing municipality, which means there is video surveillance as often happens in right-wing municipalities).

So it wasn't an attack by a far-left group of vigilantes, but more an attack by children of African immigrants, the same who vote for Mélenchon when they turn 18 (but I doubt their attack was politically motivated... more likely sheer violence for the sake of violence).

Perhaps this incident will help you understand why 34% of French people voted for the far-right last Sunday. I don't know if Québec will ever get there. I hope not for you guys.

PS: More detail: actually one of the Maghrebans was a 20 y/o adult, the 2 other Maghrebans were teenagers. All 3 born in France and with a history of criminality. The Ivorian teenager was born in Côte d'Ivoire. When the minister and party members were sticking election posters on boards, they were physically attacked. One of the thugs shouted: "Sur le Coran, appelle tout le monde !" More members of this gang of teenagers came, they hit the minister and her team with scooters, broke the jaw of one of the minister's aides. One woman in the neighborhood commented: "These kids harass us everyday, they make life impossible for us, but they get arrested only when they attack a minister!"

France in 2024 for you! I'm not a far-right voter, but you can understand when incidents like that happen almost everyday in France due to very lax policing and lax justice system (delinquents very often not sent to jail even for very serious stuff) and an immigration policy that is a disaster because Macron and his predecessors have never taken the issue seriously, many people are tempted to vote for the far-right.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Perhaps this incident will help you understand why 34% of French people voted for the far-right last Sunday. I don't know if Québec will ever get there. I hope not for you

.

Canada (including Québec probably) would be completely impotent in the face of such issues if ever they got that serious here. I have no faith in our ability to make hard, courageous decisions.

That said we are often lucky with history and a lot of the bad stuff that hits other countries tends to pass us by.

It might be the only thing that can save us.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Canada (including Québec probably) would be completely impotent in the face of such issues if ever they got that serious here. I have no faith in our ability to make hard, courageous decisions.

That said we are often lucky with history and a lot of the bad stuff that hits other countries tends to pass us by.

It might be the only thing that can save us.

Not sure about our luck. We have a culture of sacrifice and willingness to make the tough decisions. I wonder if that is now gone. Really we have worse violence than France on most measures already. We seem ready to turn towards a government ready to bring back law and order and end the woke madness. Honestly it's probably the only fix that is both achievable and in line with their idealogical bent.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Not sure about our luck. We have a culture of sacrifice and willingness to make the tough decisions. I wonder if that is now gone. Really we have worse violence than France on most measures already. We seem ready to turn towards a government ready to bring back law and order and end the woke madness. Honestly it's probably the only fix that is both achievable and in line with their idealogical bent.

Not sure the Poilievre Conservatives will turn back that much of the woke stuff if elected.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not sure the Poilievre Conservatives will turn back that much of the woke stuff if elected.

On the contrary, I actually expect a pretty hard turn to "anti-woke" under Pollievre, to distract the public from his inevitable failure to fix the economic issues. Much like JT used being "woke" as a distraction from his failures.

On most issues, public opinion is now leaning to the "anti-woke" position. It's an easy win for PP, unlike housing or the economy or public finances.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

On the contrary, I actually expect a pretty hard turn to "anti-woke" under Pollievre, to distract the public from his inevitable failure to fix the economic issues. Much like JT used being "woke" as a distraction from his failures.

On most issues, public opinion is now leaning to the "anti-woke" position. It's an easy win for PP, unlike housing or the economy or public finances.

I think in both cases they also really believe it. I don't think PP is a borderline racist like a lot of the anti woke but certainly doesn't agree with it's excesses. Trudeau just finally named a woman as Chief of Defence Staff. That's not to get votes it's a remaking of the country around idenity but from his perspective ending the patriacrhy at its heart.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not sure the Poilievre Conservatives will turn back that much of the woke stuff if elected.

I think the woke stuff is here to stay in Western societies. It's like the 1968 sexual revolution. There's no turning back, until our societies completely collapse and something new appears, but it will take several centuries.

Do your left wing politicians now routinely write things such as "les habitant.e.s de Montréal ont le droit etc..." or "celles et ceux qui..." or even the infamous "iels" ? This is now standard among French left-wing politicians. Even the Paris city hall has now recently started to use the median point. They have even re-ingraved the marble plaques in the Paris city hall, spending yet more taxpayers' money for their crazy woke stuff.



Many people choose to withdraw from the current society in order not to be submitted to all this craziness. Personally I stop reading texts after the first median point. I also stop reading after the first "autrice" popping up (instead of "auteure").

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

On the contrary, I actually expect a pretty hard turn to "anti-woke" under Pollievre, to distract the public from his inevitable failure to fix the economic issues. Much like JT used being "woke" as a distraction from his failures.

On most issues, public opinion is now leaning to the "anti-woke" position. It's an easy win for PP, unlike housing or the economy or public finances.

Astute and likely observation. And it's not like this is a rare occurrence elsewhere either. Culture war is the thing that politicians reach for when they find economic issues hard to solve. It's an easy and quick win.

I'm more curious how their agenda will play out in Québec. On one hand, Québec is clearly more prickly on immigration. On the other hand, Québec isn't down for Christian sharia and climate denialism either. So it's going to be a wild ride ...

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Not sure about our luck. We have a culture of sacrifice and willingness to make the tough decisions. I wonder if that is now gone. Really we have worse violence than France on most measures already. We seem ready to turn towards a government ready to bring back law and order and end the woke madness. Honestly it's probably the only fix that is both achievable and in line with their idealogical bent.

Does ready include ready to pay for it? Bringing back law and order assumes it went somewhere, which is dubious, but if it's real you can count the cost in beaucoup billions. Is that where PP is going? I would suspect not. Not actually sure what constitutes "woke madness" or what government has to do with ending it.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Not sure about our luck. We have a culture of sacrifice and willingness to make the tough decisions. I wonder if that is now gone. Really we have worse violence than France on most measures already. We seem ready to turn towards a government ready to bring back law and order and end the woke madness. Honestly it's probably the only fix that is both achievable and in line with their idealogical bent.

1) Most law enforcement is municipal. The feds have little to do with poor enforcement. They control macro drivers like immigration and economic policy which may drive crime. But they don't and can't do much about law enforcement.

2) Talk to any law enforcement officer. They'll tell you that a huge factor is recent court decisions that dismiss charges if too long is taken to prosecute. So either the federal government has to us the notwithstanding clause to overturn precedent or federal and provincial governments have to absolutely ramp up the number of judges, something they are actually trying to do.

But kwoldtimer is right. How much are you willing to pay? Because solving those macro factors is expensive. And getting more judges and more prosecutors means more very expensive government employees.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Does ready include ready to pay for it? Bringing back law and order assumes it went somewhere, which is dubious, but if it's real you can count the cost in beaucoup billions. Is that where PP is going? I would suspect not. Not actually sure what constitutes "woke madness" or what government has to do with ending it.

Woke madness is the Aboriginal Justice Strategy and other focus on "over-represented" groups. It's part of a government wide woke strategy adressing everything in a lense of equity. It's billions of extra dollars spent on government contracts and beyond the concrete costs it is a general lack of focus on actual results.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

1) Most law enforcement is municipal. The feds have little to do with poor enforcement. They control macro drivers like immigration and economic policy which may drive crime. But they don't and can't do much about law enforcement.

2) Talk to any law enforcement officer. They'll tell you that a huge factor is recent court decisions that dismiss charges if too long is taken to prosecute. So either the federal government has to us the notwithstanding clause to overturn precedent or federal and provincial governments have to absolutely ramp up the number of judges, something they are actually trying to do.

But kwoldtimer is right. How much are you willing to pay? Because solving those macro factors is expensive. And getting more judges and more prosecutors means more very expensive government employees.

The Cons will tighten the bail system, stop woke sentencing that allows certain groups to go free, and overall lengthen sentences and yes stop the dismissial of cases based on delays which is absurd. Especially when applied to people not in custody. Yes this will cost money and probably only has a marginal impact on crime especially in the long term but it will have a chilling effect on the general lawlessness.