[Burnaby] Metropolis at Metrotown Redevelopment (Downtown Burnaby)

[Snow_Wolf]

I sincerely hope this development never happens. If they wanted to redevelop like with Oakridge where they keep the mall portion I'd be fine with it, but making everything outdoors in a city known for rain doesn't make much sense to me... Not to mention climate change making things like heat waves more common, our public indoor spaces are incredibly valuable.

There's already countless outdoor areas, and while Metro Vancouver has a few malls, I'd say Metrotown is the best of them. I do like mixed-use developments with street-level retail, but are there not still a thousand strip malls and barely used parking lots that could be redeveloped first?

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Snow_Wolf

I sincerely hope this development never happens. If they wanted to redevelop like with Oakridge where they keep the mall portion I'd be fine with it, but making everything outdoors in a city known for rain doesn't make much sense to me... Not to mention climate change making things like heat waves more common, our public indoor spaces are incredibly valuable.

There's already countless outdoor areas, and while Metro Vancouver has a few malls, I'd say Metrotown is the best of them. I do like mixed-use developments with street-level retail, but are there not still a thousand strip malls and barely used parking lots that could be redeveloped first?

I mean do the math on selling or renting a bunch of housing over the same area even with any loss on commercial space then it's going to happen. Isn't there still a significant indoor component to the retail?

https://metropolismasterplan.com/20-...own-over-time/

[libtard]

Originally Posted by Snow_Wolf

I sincerely hope this development never happens. If they wanted to redevelop like with Oakridge where they keep the mall portion I'd be fine with it, but making everything outdoors in a city known for rain doesn't make much sense to me... Not to mention climate change making things like heat waves more common, our public indoor spaces are incredibly valuable.

There's already countless outdoor areas, and while Metro Vancouver has a few malls, I'd say Metrotown is the best of them. I do like mixed-use developments with street-level retail, but are there not still a thousand strip malls and barely used parking lots that could be redeveloped first?

What’s so good about Metrotown? Every other store front is out of business or a bootleg store I’ve never heard of. Reminds me of Landsdowne mall in Richmond

[vanc]

Originally Posted by libtard

What’s so good about Metrotown? Every other store front is out of business or a bootleg store I’ve never heard of. Reminds me of Landsdowne mall in Richmond

I made an account just to respond to this. Nonsense. Are we going to the same mall?

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by vanc

I made an account just to respond to this. Nonsense. Are we going to the same mall?

At least with an account you can use the ignore user function

It's just a typical suburban mall with a mix of stores and services for the surrounding community. The worst thing I could say about it is the confusing layout (for obvious reasons).

[BaddieB]

My fantasy was just having an half underground mall, like Pacific Centre. There can be retail at street level but also indoors and beneath the streets.

Ultimately Ivanhoe knows best what to do with their land and money.

[Migrant_Coconut]

In fairness, Brentwood kind of made Metrotown lame by comparison. They could use a renovation at the very least.

[Snow_Wolf]

Originally Posted by libtard

What’s so good about Metrotown? Every other store front is out of business or a bootleg store I’ve never heard of. Reminds me of Landsdowne mall in Richmond

I just have to disagree here. No other mall in the Lower Mainland really compares to it, in my opinion. I don't think I'm alone in thinking this either because every time I visit Metrotown it's completely full.

[Marshal]

Originally Posted by libtard

What’s so good about Metrotown? Every other store front is out of business or a bootleg store I’ve never heard of. Reminds me of Landsdowne mall in Richmond

No fan of malls. They may/may not have a worthwhile place in things . . . who knows.

But libtard's comment is a complete fabrication comprised of lies and misinformation. I have had to go to Metrotown on a regular basis for over two years and am amazed at it's ongoing success. It is packed and the shopping is the opposite of libtard's characterization. The place always amazes me: a gold mine that I don't know why anyone would mess with it.

I know taking libtard's nonsense as worthy of comment is a waste of time, but I want anyone else to know the truth. It is one thing to express contrary opinion, but it is pointless to state things that are not true.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Marshal

No fan of malls. They may/may not have a worthwhile place in things . . . who knows.

But libtard's comment is a complete fabrication comprised of lies and misinformation. I have had to go to Metrotown on a regular basis for over two years and am amazed at it's ongoing success. It is packed and the shopping is the opposite of libtard's characterization. The place always amazes me: a gold mine that I don't know why anyone would mess with it.

I know taking libtard's nonsense as worthy of comment is a waste of time, but I want anyone else to know the truth. It is one thing to express contrary opinion, but it is pointless to state things that are not true.

Maybe he's confusing Metrotown with Tinseltown?

[logan5]

Oakridge was a very successful mall as well, but there is so much money to be made building condo towers, and at the completion of all that development, you still have a mall that has the potential to be even more successful, with 1000's of people living right above it.

Metrotown will still have a mall, except it will be a one that integrates into the urban fabric far better. With street level retail and a new street grid, Metrotown will be far more pedestrian friendly. Right now, even if you live 2 blocks from Metropolis Mall, you feel compelled to drive there because of the massive parking lots. as mentioned, the ultimate goal is to duplicate Pacific Centre, where from the outside, you don't even know it's there.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by logan5

With street level retail and a new street grid, Metrotown will be far more pedestrian friendly.

how does this make it more pedestrian friendly?

• pedestrians will need to cross multiple intersections, increasing conflicts with cars/bikes/trucks
• makes getting there by car harder, while making it worse for pedestrians
• pedestrians will be walking in the rain, snow, heat domes, etc vs being protect from the elements. do people like shopping in the pouring rain? darting from awning to awning. (why do awnings always have gaps to allow rain???) how about the heat dome, surrounded by streets of cars/trucks idling in traffic next to you with all that extra heat pouring off them, the fumes, noise, etc.
• pedestrians will be around all the loading/unloading trucks. more conflicts, more pollution, more noise, etc.
• regular people will be subjected more to vagrancy/begging/crime/etc. as a a private property mall means those people are kicked out vs being allowed to be there to harass regular people

right now, this massive block of non/limited vehicle access could be turned into creating a TRUE pedestrian friendly area. cutting it up with roads is terrible. such a wasted opportunity.

we could create something like Galleria Vittorio Emanuele II, Royal Saint-Hubert Galleries. it doesnt need to be a typical suburban mall.

force all vehicles, roads, loading/unloading to be underground. all pedestrians/bikes above ground. being indoors, gives the benefit of climate control, kicking out vagrants, etc. literally improves the experience for everyone. its a win-win situation.

condos, offices, can be built above it. it could be 100% integrated into the SkyTrain station to create the perfect pedestrian connection to transit. hell, you could add moving sidewalks if you wanted.

the worst thing we do, is we take these massive blocks of car-free land, then put cars through them. wtf is that? thats the stupidest thing to do. im pro-car, i almost never take transit, but why are you plowing cars/roads through everything all the time?!?!

i will never understand this obsession with shoving roads everywhere because its "better." it isnt. its worse. its way worse.

[Migrant_Coconut]

I can see it both ways. Once you're actually in the mall, it's a fairly pleasant climate controlled pedestrian experience... but if you're trying to get into, around or through the mall, that experience becomes more of an obstacle.

On the third hand, Ivanhoe's plan is biased too much toward the latter. Metrotown's a destination for people all over the metro... who will likely look elsewhere if they turn it into just another Robson.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I can see it both ways. Once you're actually in the mall, it's a fairly pleasant climate controlled pedestrian experience... but if you're trying to get into, around or through the mall, that experience becomes more of an obstacle.

On the third hand, Ivanhoe's plan is biased too much toward the latter. Metrotown's a destination for people all over the metro... who will likely look elsewhere if they turn it into just another Robson.

But don't you think Metrotown only really existed as a Metro destination because it had stores that don't exist somewhere else?

I agree there are positives/negatives on both forms of development but you are living in a panacea if you think the pedestrian experience is all worse with what they proposed. Where's VancouverOfTheFuture complaining about conflicts/exhaust of people walking through giant underground parkades?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

But don't you think Metrotown only really existed as a Metro destination because it had stores that don't exist somewhere else?

Indeed - ditto the Cineplex, groceries and department/big box stores.

I'm not betting on all of the above sticking around to move back in... and the food court will be gone for good. If Burnaby's end goal here is to decentralize Metrotown and spread demand around to other local commercial areas, it seems like that'll go according to plan.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

how does this make it more pedestrian friendly?

...

i will never understand this obsession with shoving roads everywhere because its "better." it isnt. its worse. its way worse.

I also don't understand why they have to break up the mall and turn it into retail podiums / towers on a street grid. I don't have an issue with adding towers - it's the breaking it up and adding roads everywhere as then it's not pedestrian friendly.

It could be interesting if they had underground shops (and parking), then retail podiums that connected on upper levels, and then towers on top of that. There would be some open space on the ground level with a floating mall above and below. Then they could have some limited local roads (for accessing the towers) along with space for parks, etc. Sadly that's highly unlikely to happen.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by logan5

... as mentioned, the ultimate goal is to duplicate Pacific Centre, where from the outside, you don't even know it's there.

On the flip side, I can't help but think of all the other mediocre malls in downtown Vancouver that have ended up as mostly service-oriented malls for office workers:
- Harbour Centre
- Bentall Centre
- Royal Centre
- Sinclair Centre
- Vancouver Centre
Only Pacific Centre has done well because of its size, location and anchors.

Even Robson St. isn't the draw it used to be, because its stores are no longer unique in the region.

If each of the Metrotown deconstructed blocks is to have a smaller multi-level shopping centre, I'm not sure how well they will do.
.. plus, on top of that, residential towers provide fewer potential shoppers than office towers would provide.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by officedweller

On the flip side, I can't help but think of all the other mediocre malls in downtown Vancouver that have ended up as mostly service-oriented malls for office workers:
- Harbour Centre
- Bentall Centre
- Royal Centre
- Sinclair Centre
- Vancouver Centre
Only Pacific Centre has done well because of its size, location and anchors.

Even Robson St. isn't the draw it used to be, because its stores are no longer unique in the region.

If each of the Metrotown deconstructed blocks is to have a smaller multi-level shopping centre, I'm not sure how well they will do.
.. plus, on top of that, residential towers provide fewer potential shoppers than office towers would provide.

In theory office towers might provide more potential customers. In reality the last office tower that was developed here stayed part built, with no tenants interested in renting space until Metro Vancouver took it some years later. And the office they moved from didn't find a tenant, and is now in receivership. Metrotown doesn't seem to be attractive to office tenants in the past several years. We know developers are switching office podiums to hotels in several Burnaby projects.

I would assume one advantage of deconstructed blocks with residential towers is that they can be developed in a phased way, one or two towers at a time. I would imagine that nobody would ever risk billions of dollars on a total redevelopment like Oakridge - without covid that might have been phased too, as was originally planned.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Changing City

In theory office towers might provide more potential customers. In reality the last office tower that was developed here stayed part built, with no tenants interested in renting space until Metro Vancouver took it some years later. And the office they moved from didn't find a tenant, and is now in receivership. Metrotown doesn't seem to be attractive to office tenants in the past several years. We know developers are switching office podiums to hotels in several Burnaby projects.

I would assume one advantage of deconstructed blocks with residential towers is that they can be developed in a phased way, one or two towers at a time. I would imagine that nobody would ever risk billions of dollars on a total redevelopment like Oakridge - without covid that might have been phased too, as was originally planned.

Yeah, that aligns with what I was thinking. If mass market retail (if clothing stores, etc.) can't survive under downtown office towers, I doubt they'll be able to survive under residential towers. That plays out in downtown south in Vancouver with retail spaces occupied by hairdressers, nail salons, spas, and dentists.

Overall, I think that the calibre of retailers would drop, but key to that is whether Ivanhoe Cambridge retains the retail spaces or sells them off over time to others (like One Bloor East's podium was sold to First Capital). If that's the case, you won't have the coordinated mix of tenants you see in a conventional mall. Anthem seems to have coordinated Station Square well, but those are mostly restaurants. How is the old retail plaza at the back doing (as an example of a smaller cluster of retail stores albeit with some anchors)?

[Spr0ckets]

The only points I'll make to this are:-

- "Pedestrian friendly" does not = "Mall Customer/Mall Foot Traffic" friendly

In fact, in many situations the two are at cross-purposes.

"Pedestrain friendly" in the context of (outdoor) streets and sidewalks and the urban experience, does not imply the sort of experience that a mall shopper usually seeks when they decide to go do their shopping/browsing at a mall.

Pedestrians might not care about the climate-controlled enclosed atmosphere that mall shoppers value ( I'll always keeping noting the number of times you'll see people in t-shirts and flip-flops at the mall........in February.....or rainy November.....specifically because the mall allows you to do that as a shopping experience), so to redesign your mall experience to service the kind of foot traffic that might not even be interested in coming into your mall spaces and spend money on your tenants, doesn't to me seem the wisest strategy.

The "pedestrian experience" (for locals,... I guess) might be improved, but the mall shopping experience (typically by outsiders), will be severely impacted and worsened by this plan.

Also, why would they be trying to replicate Pacific Centre?
Pacific Center succeeds precisely because it is a shopping center in the middle of a downtown.
Metroplace is, and always will be a mall in the suburbs.

Two totally different contexts.

For one thing, the former has the sort of office-worker foot traffic that the latter will simply never have as a suburban mall in a suburban town center that barely has any office space, much less office-workers.


And yes, shoving roads in the middle of what should have been shopper foot traffic routes and forcing people to have to wait at crosswalks to get to shops they want to get to instead of the continuous unhindered paths they previously enjoyed will absolutely ruin the shopping experience for the people who valued that in a "single covered mall" model that it currently is.

Secondly, I don't think people came (or come) to Metrotown as a metro destination (simply) because it has stores that didn't exist elsewhere.
There is that for some stores, but I think the bigger draw is the combination and consolidation of stores that would otherwise be all over the place as a shopping trip and destination.

By this I mean, it wouldn't be out of place to see someone going to the mall despite having a T&T or a Walmart in their neighbourhood that would be easier to go to.
It's the fact that in the mall you can get your T&T food run done, but also stop by the Apple store and then do some shopping for dresses or outerware at Decathalon, all within the same trip and not jump on the skytrain or some buses in between IS the bigger draw for a lot of people who come to the mall.
Again, lots of mall shoppers (from outside Metrotown) have these stores individually or on their own in their own neighbourhoods.
But it's the convenience that's offered by having those other stores and outlets in the same place that draws people there rather than have to make the trips all over the place.
(and the fact that it's accessibly directly from Transit, ....obviously).