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  #201  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2023, 6:19 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by OTownandDown View Post
I flew over this land a couple weeks ago, coming in to land at YOW. The NCC has cleared as much, if not more land immediately adjacent to the Tewin clearing. The clear cutting by the NCC is a looooong swathe through the greenbelt adjacent to Letrim.

No mention of that at all?
The NCC secretly cut down trees and then retroactively claimed a farming exemption to avoid being fined? Let's not compare Apples and Wheelbarrows.
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  #202  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2023, 6:29 PM
stolenottawa stolenottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by OTownandDown View Post
I flew over this land a couple weeks ago, coming in to land at YOW. The NCC has cleared as much, if not more land immediately adjacent to the Tewin clearing. The clear cutting by the NCC is a looooong swathe through the greenbelt adjacent to Letrim.

No mention of that at all?
I mean, most people know about the storm in May. There were lots of stories in the news about the damage in Pine Grove.
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  #203  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2023, 4:14 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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The area was devastated. The NCC has been clearcutting as well since certain areas have widespread windfall and are a danger to the public. The Greenbelt have a network of recreational trails. I have walked through windfall areas and if not cleaned up, they will be unusable for recreation for 100 years or more. We are being terribly harsh following a natural disaster. Destroyed forests are not useful for anything and are a potential liability. Damaged trees could come down at anytime. I know, that happened at my house just last week.

Last edited by lrt's friend; Apr 13, 2023 at 4:36 AM.
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  #204  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2023, 1:17 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...show-1.6890452

My previous point was that we decry clear cutting by a developer because the locals don't want the development and will take the opportunity to throw punches, when immediately adjacent the same amount of clearcutting was undertaken (probably by the same contractor, no less) and not mentioned as a 'by the way' counterpoint.

From the sky, the Tewin land was dead ash trees followed by storm damage, and maybe an old stand of planted pine that survived earlier harvests. Cutting down a bunch of invasive buckthorn (or future buckthorn habitat) is better than leaving the scrub. Sure, they could have selectively left maples and pines, whatever was left standing.

The NCC completely clearcut swathes of their scotch pine stands, something which was long overdue anyways. The remaining scotch pine canopy in the city will eventually need to be harvested, it's not a forever type of forest.

The question is, what will happen to the land, both NCC and Tewin? Without carefully managing the forest, it'll be just a bunch of wild parsnip and buckthorn, like everywhere else that's left to fallow? I know the NCC tried at Bruce Pit, but it was kind of amateurish. We need real forestry here, and an understanding of how to not cut grass with the same lawnmower as was just used to cut invasives, spreading them absolutely everywhere. But now I'm just getting into a rant about burning my legs in the greenbelt because of invasive species.
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  #205  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2024, 1:14 PM
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J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
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Tewin's $590M infrastructure bill locks in 'forever sprawl,' councillor says

Shawn Menard worries city could be left saddled with debt for oversized pipes across greenbelt

Arthur White-Crummey · CBC News · Posted: Jun 19, 2024 4:00 AM EDT

The steep cost of building water and sewer infrastructure for the planned Tewin community has one councillor worried the city is locking in "forever sprawl" in southeast Ottawa.

"We're looking at $600 million just on the water costs alone. That does not include transit. It does not include roads. It's a huge expense," said Capital ward Coun. Shawn Menard, who chairs council's environment and climate change committee.

While developers are supposed to be on the hook for growth-related costs, Menard said the city could be left carrying a chunk of debt as it overbuilds infrastructure for more than 100,000 residents.

His committee is set to consider a draft infrastructure master plan on Thursday. It foresees $1.5 billion in costs, not including $494 million more for water purification and treatment. The estimates are preliminary, but the pipes, pumps and reservoir related to Tewin are among the priciest items, at a combined total of $590 million.

The city will look to recover most of that money through development charges on new homes. But the financing for nearly $170 million in costs is still under negotiation, and Menard said city staff have told him the funding could come from municipal debt.

That's because the city plans to build more than what Tewin alone would require. It projects that about 16,500 people will live in Tewin by 2046, but it wants to plan for the 93,000 more who could move into the surrounding area by the dawn of the 22nd century.

It says "oversizing" infrastructure now would be far cheaper than building new infrastructure later, when those new residents finally arrive.

As just one example, the master plan calls for doubling the diameter of an 8.5-kilometre trunk sewer from 750 millimetres to 1.5 metres.

'You're going to see that area grow much, much larger'

Menard said that's a risk, since it assumes the community will grow enough to recoup that sum through development charges outside the Tewin boundary. In his view, that creates an incentive to make sure it does.

"That would be forever sprawl in that area," he said. "You're going to see that area grow much, much larger if we allow that to occur in the first place. And that's my concern. That sprawl is very expensive."

But Jason Burggraaf, CEO of the Greater Ottawa Home Builders' Association, said oversizing infrastructure is normal and prudent.

"It gives you flexibility to increase housing, whether that's through density on the plots you already have or if you end up having to add more land," he said.

"It's the most cost-effective way of ensuring that you have capacity in the system, whether you end up using it or not."

Tewin won't fund '75-plus years of growth'

The 445-hectare Tewin project is a partnership between the Algonquins of Ontario, which did not respond to a request for comment, and the Taggart Group of Companies.

Taggart said it's proposing "alternative, lower-cost servicing options that need to be explored in collaboration with the City." It expects Tewin will be home to about 35,000 to 45,000 people within 20 years.

"We have always said, 'Tewin pays for Tewin.' We stand by that statement," said an email response attributed to Michelle Taggart, vice-president of land development.

"It means that Tewin will fund the infrastructure that benefits it directly. However, this commitment does not extend to financing 75-plus years of growth across south and southeast Ottawa."

She added that Taggart supports reviewing the funding split later in the process, as recommended in the infrastructure master plan.

But Menard said his worries go beyond debt. Whoever picks up the capital costs, he said it will still fall on the city to pay the operating costs for servicing the new community. He figures those, too, will be steep.

"How much are we willing to pay to expand, and very inefficiently?" he asked. "It costs us every single time we expand into that greenfield instead of doing intensity in already developed areas."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...says-1.7238412
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  #206  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2024, 2:35 PM
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Williamoforange Williamoforange is offline
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Menard also fights anything higher then 4 stories on babk St, so who cares what he thinks as he won't actually accept any solution to the problems he's raising.

The guy is the epitome of a hypocrite and false "progressive" that plague Ottawa council.

He vocally opposes Tewin, while also vocally fighting to increase development fees on intensification, increase construction costs, increase community consultations & planning review timelines.

While also saying squat about the fact that the new ZBL still limits the Urban core in areas to 4 stories or less along many other bad plans that will do little to see growth through intensification.

So yeah, Tewin a bad idea, but Menard has no leg to stand on criticising it, because currently his plans will have housing skip Ottawa completely for it's exurbs which will be far more costly then tewin ever will be.

Last edited by Williamoforange; Jun 19, 2024 at 2:59 PM.
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  #207  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2024, 2:51 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Tewin is inevitable now that the city has given its blessing to the project. Developers are buying up property in the area, so it going to move forward eventually. Developers and their money control city planning. No matter how big a financial disaster this is for the taxpayer, the project will move forward.
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  #208  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2024, 2:56 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by Williamoforange View Post
Menard also fights anything higher then 4 stories on back St.


The guy is the epitome of a hypocrite and false "progressive" that plague Ottawa council.

He vocally opposes Tewin, while also vocally fighting to increase development fees on intensification, increase construction costs, increase community consultations & planning review timelines.

While also saying squat about the fact that the new ZBL still limits the Urban core in areas to 4 stories or less along many other bad plans that will do little to see growth through intensification.

So yeah, Tewin a bad idea, but Menard has no leg to stand on criticising it, because currently his plans will have housing skip Ottawa completely for it's exurbs which will be far more costly then tewin ever will be.
He's a hypocrite for sure but there were lots of better areas to put exurban housing than Tewin and he's right this is a huge risk. It was political correctness "reconcilation" gone mad. Putting the smaller pipe and having Tewin pay the whole ride makes much more sense in this case.
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  #209  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2024, 7:26 PM
OTSkyline OTSkyline is offline
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It's like they're finally starting to realize that sprawl is more expensive than densification... wow
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  #210  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2024, 12:01 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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It's like they're finally starting to realize that sprawl is more expensive than densification... wow
Not really. It's only obvious because it's a completely new community. Meanwhile they'll spend way more than that just to support sprawl in current suburbs.
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  #211  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2024, 12:07 AM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Not really. It's only obvious because it's a completely new community. Meanwhile they'll spend way more than that just to support sprawl in current suburbs.
Yeah the idea we have any kind of a pardigm shift on sprawl and suburban life is dubious at best.
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  #212  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2024, 3:17 AM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
He's a hypocrite for sure but there were lots of better areas to put exurban housing than Tewin and he's right this is a huge risk. It was political correctness "reconcilation" gone mad. Putting the smaller pipe and having Tewin pay the whole ride makes much more sense in this case.
If the city can't stop the area from being built, which at this point looks to be it, best to just build the larger pipe.

I agree that this should have never gone forward, just stating of all people on council neither himself, nor his allies have a leg to stand to criticise on considering the work that group has done to slow/halt inner city intensification.

Basically can't be both against sprawl & against intensification at a level that actually meets demand.
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  #213  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2024, 1:08 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by Williamoforange View Post
If the city can't stop the area from being built, which at this point looks to be it, best to just build the larger pipe.

I agree that this should have never gone forward, just stating of all people on council neither himself, nor his allies have a leg to stand to criticise on considering the work that group has done to slow/halt inner city intensification.

Basically can't be both against sprawl & against intensification at a level that actually meets demand.
Well the city can certainly stop it being built. They just need to vote that way. Their hands are far from tied.

Future proofing a hundred years of sprawl seems weird. There is an absolute ton of closer land they could put in the urban boundary. It wasn't debated here but building on some of the greenbelt should also be discussed before puting thousands of people half way to Montreal.
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  #214  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2024, 1:41 PM
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Councillors concerned over future Tewin development but hesitate to reconsider
No reason to believe suburb won't proceed, says a councillor, as others forecast future votes

Elyse Skura · CBC News
Posted: Jun 21, 2024 4:00 AM EDT | Last Updated: 6 hours ago




https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...ider-1.7241580
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  #215  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2024, 2:02 PM
Tesladom Tesladom is offline
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Crossing the Greenbelt is obviously the biggest cost here.

The city should seek funding from the Fed/NCC (still the same taxpayer I know), but at least we can try to bring some sense about the costs we face as a result of the Greenbelt.
I know its unpopular, but I would re-assess the entire Greenbelt, protect sensitive areas, ensure woodlands and watersheds are protected but otherwise, anything that is close to transit and infrastructure should be opened for development.
The intent of the Greenbelt was to contain sprawl... clearly it has not

We could easily add 300-500k population without any sprawl over the next 25 years
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  #216  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2024, 2:23 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
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What I'd really like to know is if this is an actual planned community or just several hundred sh*tty townhouses on curvy streets?

Can we please have a central transit hub, dense low-rise cluster around said hub/grocery store/bank/school, and an actual planned community of density? Or do we need more mediocre expensive sprawl?

European cities are trying to do this, yet to be seen if it works.

Rockcliffe airbase was supposed to be this, but I'm not convinced yet.
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  #217  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2024, 2:31 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by OTownandDown View Post
What I'd really like to know is if this is an actual planned community or just several hundred sh*tty townhouses on curvy streets?

Can we please have a central transit hub, dense low-rise cluster around said hub/grocery store/bank/school, and an actual planned community of density? Or do we need more mediocre expensive sprawl?

European cities are trying to do this, yet to be seen if it works.

Rockcliffe airbase was supposed to be this, but I'm not convinced yet.
Rockcliffe is fairly dense but fairly centrally located. Who wants to live in a townhouse or apartment in such a far flung location? Europeans do this but there is a train connection and frankly often they become pretty rough ghettos for immigrants.
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  #218  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2024, 2:33 PM
LRTeverywhere LRTeverywhere is offline
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Originally Posted by OTownandDown View Post
What I'd really like to know is if this is an actual planned community or just several hundred sh*tty townhouses on curvy streets?

Can we please have a central transit hub, dense low-rise cluster around said hub/grocery store/bank/school, and an actual planned community of density? Or do we need more mediocre expensive sprawl?

European cities are trying to do this, yet to be seen if it works.

Rockcliffe airbase was supposed to be this, but I'm not convinced yet.
There is a community design plan and secondary plan in progress that should deterime what the area will look like. They had an in person public info session to display the intial plans the other day, still waiting for the display boards and presentation to be posted.
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  #219  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2024, 6:04 PM
OTSkyline OTSkyline is offline
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
Who wants to live in a townhouse or apartment in such a far flung location?
Kanata has entered the chat...

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  #220  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2024, 6:09 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Kanata has entered the chat...

Point taken but Kanata and even Barhaven Orleans have their own workplaces, attractions as well as downsizers and 20 something purchasers who want to stay near their parents and family.
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