Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

How about social security and retirement pensions? Does it transfer automatically from one province to the other? In the EU there is free movement of workers, but the biggest brake on actually moving to other EU countries, besides the issue of language, is social security and pensions. That's why few Europeans actually go work in another EU country.

Yes, most of these things transfer over between Canada's provinces.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Does the CAQ have any major policy achievements? I cannot really recall any which may explain the growth in PQ support.

They claim to have "saved" Québec's public health system. Some disagree.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

They claim to have "saved" Québec's public health system. Some disagree.

Come on man. Everyone knows it was equalization money "stolen" from the Alberta oil patch that saved that!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not sure what your level of French is but this is an inaccurate assessment of the evolution of French in Québec.

It is moving closer to international French. Not moving away from it.

From the point of view of vocabulary and syntax, yes. From the point of view of pronunciation, I would say no. Québec French still remains very, very different in the way they pronounce their vowels. The gap is as large as between Scottish English and US English. Also, public speakers and TV/radio journalists in French Canada spoke with a much more neutral, international French accent 50 years ago. Nowadays they have a much more pronounced Québécois accent. So in terms of pronunciation in the public/official arena, French Canada is now more divergent from international French than 50 years ago. In terms of street language it is closer to international French than 50 years ago.

Compare, Québécois journalists speaking in 1960, a bit unnatural for the man in the street, but close to international French:

• Video Link

Same here in 1970:

• Video Link

Fast forward to 2023, Québécois journalists speaking today, virtually no difference with the man in the street, and therefore a pronunciation more different from European French than in 1960 or 1970:

• Video Link

That video from 1960 is very interesting, because on the one hand the journalists had a pronunciation much closer to European French than is the case today, but on the other hand the (wo)men-in-the-street interviewed there had a pronunciation more "rural"/traditional, more divergent from European French than is the case today.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

How about social security and retirement pensions? Does it transfer automatically from one province to the other? In the EU there is free movement of workers, but the biggest brake on actually moving to other EU countries, besides the issue of language, is social security and pensions. That's why few Europeans actually go work in another EU country.

EU pensions are actually very transferrable. Sure not a lot of Germans move to France and vice versa because of language but overall huge numbers for EU citizens are mobile. I suspect more than in Canada and in many cases it's easier. A Polish Doctor can work in Ireland much easier than a move from Ontario to Quebec. The fact that most EU countries speak a language not widely taught is the main limiting factor. The UK being a one time huge exception and we know how that turned out.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Come on man. Everyone knows it was equalization money "stolen" from the Alberta oil patch that saved that!

It's sobering to think of the state it would be in were equalization not there.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Concordia is more of a "local" anglo university, and doesn't have as many ROCers or foreign students. Concordia is also stereotyped at the anglo-allophone ethnic university in Montreal, whereas McGill is stereotyped as old stock WASP.

Which is funny, because these days all the WASPs at McGill come from Ontario and the US, because there are barely any WASPs left in Quebec.

One thing that surprises me is that McGill is still pretty white. It has always had a high proportion of foreign students, but it seems like a lot of those foreign students are white people from France and the US, which is certainly not the case for UBC or other top-tier universities in Canada.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

From the point of view of vocabulary and syntax, yes. From the point of view of pronunciation, I would say no. Québec French still remains very, very different in the way they pronounce their vowels. The gap is as large as between Scottish English and US English.

That's actually a good comparison. Purely in terms of accent, the difference between Canadian French and European French is about the same as Scottish English and American English. But if you gather a group of Scottish people and American people in a professional setting, and they're all speaking standard English with no slang, nobody would have trouble understanding each other.

[kwoldtimer]

Is "Radio Canada" French the same as what we used to call "le français de la Grande Allée"? I'm decades out of date on Quebec French but it always puzzled me that this was the only thing I heard in Quebec that I could reliably understand.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Which is funny, because these days all the WASPs at McGill come from Ontario and the US, because there are barely any WASPs left in Quebec.

One thing that surprises me is that McGill is still pretty white. It has always had a high proportion of foreign students, but it seems like a lot of those foreign students are white people from France and the US, which is certainly not the case for UBC or other top-tier universities in Canada.

They've not experienced the wave from India and China?

[Kilgore Trout]

That's the thing, there are certainly lots of Chinese students at McGill, way more than when I was a student there 20 years ago. But when I walk through campus the racial makeup seems about the same as back then. Still pretty white. Which is weird.

By contrast, Concordia seems even more diverse than 20 years ago (and it was already quite diverse then) and UdeM too.

My theory is that, while Quebec and RoC students at McGill have gotten more diverse, it is a particularly coveted university for privileged white French and Americans, so they represent an unusually large proportion of the foreign students, whereas at other universities the foreign students come from more varied backgrounds.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

EU pensions are actually very transferrable. Sure not a lot of Germans move to France and vice versa because of language but overall huge numbers for EU citizens are mobile. I suspect more than in Canada and in many cases it's easier. A Polish Doctor can work in Ireland much easier than a move from Ontario to Quebec. The fact that most EU countries speak a language not widely taught is the main limiting factor. The UK being a one time huge exception and we know how that turned out.

Transferable when you are working and accumulating or when you are retired and just collecting?

You can collect a Canadian pension as a retiree anywhere in the world I think. If your working years were in Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Is "Radio Canada" French the same as what we used to call "le français de la Grande Allée"? I'm decades out of date on Quebec French but it always puzzled me that this was the only thing I heard in Quebec that I could reliably understand.

Never heard of this.

The expression I know is le français radio-canadien.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

From the point of view of vocabulary and syntax, yes. From the point of view of pronunciation, I would say no. Québec French still remains very, very different in the way they pronounce their vowels. The gap is as large as between Scottish English and US English. Also, public speakers and TV/radio journalists in French Canada spoke with a much more neutral, international French accent 50 years ago. Nowadays they have a much more pronounced Québécois accent. So in terms of pronunciation in the public/official arena, French Canada is now more divergent from international French than 50 years ago. In terms of street language it is closer to international French than 50 years ago.

Compare, Québécois journalists speaking in 1960, a bit unnatural for the man in the street, but close to international French:

• Video Link

Same here in 1970:

• Video Link

Fast forward to 2023, Québécois journalists speaking today, virtually no difference with the man in the street, and therefore a pronunciation more different from European French than in 1960 or 1970:

• Video Link

That video from 1960 is very interesting, because on the one hand the journalists had a pronunciation much closer to European French than is the case today, but on the other hand the (wo)men-in-the-street interviewed there had a pronunciation more "rural"/traditional, more divergent from European French than is the case today.

Interesting observations.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I may be mistaken but I believe you can submit your assignments in French at McGill and Bishop's as well.

You can also submit assignments in English at HEC and U de Montréal. 99% positive of that.

Yes. Even MBA at ULaval has a select number of assignments where you're required to submit in English. You also have to pass an English placement test before graduating.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

One thing that is often different about Quebecers is that they can more easily make that switch to international-style French than many francophones from outside Quebec can.

I think that's generally because Quebecers are significantly more likely to have had their higher education in French and work in a francophone professional environment. For francophones outside Quebec, French is often still only a family language. Sometimes spoken with friends. Not so much when out and about in society.

Pretty much so. When I was visiting Paris with SO and a few Quebecois friends, the local Parisiens could never tell that they're from Quebec. Of course my Anglophone accent and grammar errors gave myself away, but many Parisiens we were chatting with genuinely thought my SO was a French national (north side.. not Lyonnais nor Marseillais), and that we flew across the pond to visit SO's local friends. The only time they were 'exposed' per say was when they're snickering at the French for using silly Anglicisms like faire du shopping or t'veux un ticket.

As my SO observed, many younger Quebecois have a deep understanding of France, but it's not reciprocal. No different than the Canadian-American relationship. So it's pretty easy for a Quebecois to blend into French society seamlessly without sticking out, whereas it's pretty much impossible for a Parisien not to stick out in Plateau Mont-Royal.

Speaking of accents...Aline the movie is really cringy, especially the scene when they kept emphasizing "Vatican". I've never heard it spoken like that in Quebec.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

My theory is that, while Quebec and RoC students at McGill have gotten more diverse, it is a particularly coveted university for privileged white French and Americans, so they represent an unusually large proportion of the foreign students, whereas at other universities the foreign students come from more varied backgrounds.

Canada is still 70% white and Quebec is 80%+ white, so that's to be expected.

McGill isn't really on the radar for South Asians though. Perhaps that's the differentiating factor.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Pretty much so. When I was visiting Paris with SO and a few Quebecois friends, the local Parisiens could never tell that they're from Quebec. Of course my Anglophone accent and grammar errors gave myself away, but many Parisiens we were chatting with genuinely thought my SO was a French national (north side.. not Lyonnais nor Marseillais), and that we flew across the pond to visit SO's local friends. The only time they were 'exposed' per say was when they're snickering at the French for using silly Anglicisms like faire du shopping or t'veux un ticket.

...

A buddy of mine, originally from Quebec City, lived in Paris for five years and it used to drive him crazy when French people expressed surprise/were impressed that he spoke French "well". I witnessed it a couple of times and it always cracked me up.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Pretty much so. When I was visiting Paris with SO and a few Quebecois friends, the local Parisiens could never tell that they're from Quebec. Of course my Anglophone accent and grammar errors gave myself away, but many Parisiens we were chatting with genuinely thought my SO was a French national (north side.. not Lyonnais nor Marseillais), and that we flew across the pond to visit SO's local friends. The only time they were 'exposed' per say was when they're snickering at the French for using silly Anglicisms like faire du shopping or t'veux un ticket.

As my SO observed, many younger Quebecois have a deep understanding of France, but it's not reciprocal. No different than the Canadian-American relationship. So it's pretty easy for a Quebecois to blend into French society seamlessly without sticking out, whereas it's pretty much impossible for a Parisien not to stick out in Plateau Mont-Royal.

Speaking of accents...Aline the movie is really cringy, especially the scene when they kept emphasizing "Vatican". I've never heard it spoken like that in Quebec.

I don't think it's that common for average Québécois to be able to pass for French in France unless they deliberately put on a French accent. Which admittedly some of us can do.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Francophone communities outside Québec are increasingly becoming the last holdouts of the traditional colloquial French Canadian slang language known as joual.

Oh there is still plenty of joual left in Québec but you'll hear it more in its pure historical glory in Timmins ON and Gravelbourg SK.

A lot of classic joual terms are not known to my kids and their friends.

So true. Many of the French-Canadians who moved here from Quebec did so between the 1910s to 1940s and were not highly educated, fairly poor and came from parts of Quebec that were pretty rural. The francophones in Timmins sound so much more joual (slangy) compared to what you hear in much of Quebec.