Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

- snip -

Yes and no. Most long-distance Abbotsford commuters are headed to Surrey or Langley (page 9); barely a quarter of them commute along the WCE corridor as-is, so expansion would be low cost, but also low benefit.

Maybe, maybe not. Sure, tourists'd save up to 15 minutes and a few bucks with Richmond -> Waterfront over Surrey, but it's not just about getting to the CBD - Metrotown, Brentwood and Whalley may also be important attractions in the future. And since we're knee-deep in Fantasy Thread territory just by talking about HSR routes, there's nothing stopping it from having one station at King George and a terminus downtown.

Originally Posted by casper

The Snaw-Naw-As and Halalt territories are north of Duncan.

I could see regular service between Langford and Victoria with perhaps one or two trains a day extended to Duncan. Beyond that it is unlikely.

The ICF's endgame was service all the way to Campbell River. Obviously that's not happening now.

Even Duncan loses to the law of diminishing returns. If you could somehow pack it up and move it to Goldstream, sure, but otherwise it'll just be Langford-Victoria (maybe a proper light metro with enough funding).

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

No.

No. SRY skips Fort Langley, and CN skips Gloucester; both ignore Whalley and "downtown" Abbotsford and have no room to transfer to Broadway, making them doomed from the start. There's a reason why TransLink ditched the original Millennium Line loop - it sucked.

What are you talking about? I specifically stated the line that goes thru FL which is not even close to the route via Cloverdale.

The route meets at Scott Road like all the rest of them and then take the northern route along the SFPR and would serve Guilford, all of northern Langley which has a huge industrial/commercial are near the Golden Arms, the massive Langley population north of HWY#1, FL, then head south and connects with another rail corridor that goes right thru Gloucester, and then heads right into downtown ABBY. These are huge population and employment areas that the SkyTrain won't even come close to. There is MORE than enough room along the entire corridor to at LEAST double the trackage.

This is REGIONAL rail that will get people across the region quickly and a lot more comfortably than a SkyTrain with it's hard seats that would require hip replacement for such distances. Every other city on the planet uses rail corridors for transit and why Vancouver thinks it's the exception is beyond me.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

What are you talking about? I specifically stated the line that goes thru FL which is not even close to the route via Cloverdale.

The route meets at Scott Road like all the rest of them and then take the northern route along the SFPR and would serve Guilford, all of northern Langley which has a huge industrial/commercial are near the Golden Arms, the massive Langley population north of HWY#1, FL...

You mean the CN line? That one doesn't serve Guildford at all - it serves Port Mann. In order to get Walnut Grove, Fort Langley and a few dozen warehouses, you've also completely skipped Whalley, Langley proper, Carvolth, Aldergrove, Abbotsford or anywhere that 90% of Valley commuters actually want to go. Much easier to take the FVX to Langley, then the Expo - they both come more often too.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

... then head south and connects with another rail corridor that goes right thru Gloucester, and then heads right into downtown ABBY. These are huge population and employment areas that the SkyTrain won't even come close to. There is MORE than enough room along the entire corridor to at LEAST double the trackage.

Now you're deep into Fantasy Thread territory. CN and SRY are two different railroads. Their tracks do not intersect at Abbotsford. At all.

In order to connect them, TransLink and/or the Province would have to either A) double the track across both ROWs, then connect across the ALR, or B) "just" build the connection, then give both companies each a sloppy humjob for just a teeny little bit of track time; they might feel generous and let the public have two whole trains a day. One would cost billions, the other would be so limited as to be useless, and both would get even less ridership than the interurban because they skipped all the major destinations in Surrey/Langley. Not happening.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

This is REGIONAL rail that will get people across the region quickly and a lot more comfortably than a SkyTrain with it's hard seats that would require hip replacement for such distances. Every other city on the planet uses rail corridors for transit and why Vancouver thinks it's the exception is beyond me.

I've sat on the MRT for a full hour, and those seats are hard plastic. No problem.

We already do use rail corridors: the interurban through Vancouver became the Expo Line, and the BNSF/CN railway became the Millennium. Aside from the old CP track through False Creek and Arbutus or the ROW down Railway to Steveston (and even those're a "maybe"), all other rail corridors are long past their usefulness for moving passengers. They're freight lines now.

[Vin]

At least the Township of Langley has some foresight here.

An emissions-free hydrogen powered passenger train from Surrey to Chilliwack
https://southfrasercommunityrail.ca/...raser%20Valley

.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Vander Zalm AND Patrick Condon - as if we didn't already have enough proof that this is a freaking stupid idea.

[jollyburger]

Opening a Fantasy Garden at the end of the line as a selling point might help convince me on light rail to the valley.

[RedArbutus]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Opening a Fantasy Garden at the end of the line as a selling point might help convince me on light rail to the valley.

One giant windmill coming right up....

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Vin

At least the Township of Langley has some foresight here.

This is from June 2023, when the Township of Langley voted to present a motion at UBCM in September 2023. The motion was not debated, and was instead referred to area association. This typically happens when a motion is seen as being too narrow in geographical scope. In this case the Township of Langley should be presenting the motion to the Lower Mainland Local Government Association as it covers both Metro Vancouver (where the Township of Langley is) and the Fraser Valley Regional District (where Chilliwack is). I haven't seen any news that the Township of Langley is pursuing this.

Edit: It looks like the Township of Langley is bringing the motion to the upcoming LMLGA conference, but it also seems like the LMLGA Resolutions Committee is recommending that the resolution go to the Fraser Valley Regional District since it affects mostly the Fraser Valley:

The Committee would point out, however, that this resolution focuses solely on the Fraser Valley, as well as selected communities in Metro Vancouver located south of the Fraser River. As written, the resolution is regional in scope, and the absence of interurban rail service in the Lower Mainland has little impact on the rest of British Columbia. Because of the regional focus, the Committee recommends that this resolution be referred to the Area Association, which can engage in advocacy on this issue.

[ssiguy]

Upon further reflection, I guess you guys are right. There really is no reason to plan for future population growth and sprawl in the Valley.

The population is set to implode, Vancouver housing prices are about to drop by 80% so people can afford to move closer to where they work, all the people at industrial/commerical/retail/hospitals/schools will soon be working from home, and the provinces can certainly afford to build SkyTrain to infinity and beyond. Why this hadn't dawned on me before, I really don't know and my most sincere of apologies.

Clearly long-term transit planning is not necessary so we should just keep going the way we are. Problems are so much easier to solve when you pretend they will never exist and clearly this is our only viable path forward.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

This is from June 2023, when the Township of Langley voted to present a motion at UBCM in September 2023. The motion was not debated, and was instead referred to area association. This typically happens when a motion is seen as being too narrow in geographical scope. In this case the Township of Langley should be presenting the motion to the Lower Mainland Local Government Association as it covers both Metro Vancouver (where the Township of Langley is) and the Fraser Valley Regional District (where Chilliwack is). I haven't seen any news that the Township of Langley is pursuing this.

Edit: It looks like the Township of Langley is bringing the motion to the upcoming LMLGA conference, but it also seems like the LMLGA Resolutions Committee is recommending that the resolution go to the Fraser Valley Regional District since it affects mostly the Fraser Valley:

The focus is not narrow at all: it will tie in to the existing skytrain stations as transfer points, and this is not even including Translink and BC Transit bus connections.

We need some municipalities to step up if they want to see better transit system serving them.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Vander Zalm AND Patrick Condon - as if we didn't already have enough proof that this is a freaking stupid idea.

A typical NIMBY response.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Upon further reflection, I guess you guys are right. There really is no reason to plan for future population growth and sprawl in the Valley.

The population is set to implode, Vancouver housing prices are about to drop by 80% so people can afford to move closer to where they work, all the people at industrial/commerical/retail/hospitals/schools will soon be working from home, and the provinces can certainly afford to build SkyTrain to infinity and beyond. Why this hadn't dawned on me before, I really don't know and my most sincere of apologies.

Clearly long-term transit planning is not necessary so we should just keep going the way we are. Problems are so much easier to solve when you pretend they will never exist and clearly this is our only viable path forward.

Great response! There is a reason why we are so behind compared to back East, but mostly to the rest of the developed world. We LOVE our backwardness.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Vin

The focus is not narrow at all: it will tie in to the existing skytrain stations as transfer points, and this is not even including Translink and BC Transit bus connections.

The motion as it read was too narrowly focused for the UBCM, which is supposed to be looking at resolutions that have a provincial impact. Asking the Province for a rail line that would benefit only one regional district and a part of a second is too narrow for UBCM, and it looks like LMLGA is even thinking it's too narrowly focused for them too.

Keep in mind that the motion only mentions Delta, Surrey, Langley, Abbotsford, and Chilliwack. The SRY line only comes close to SkyTrain stations at Scott Road and maybe where it crosses Fraser Highway, but that crossing is a good three Langley blocks away from either SkyTrain station so making it a transfer point is going to be difficult. The CN line doesn't come anywhere near any SkyTrain stations south of the Fraser, either existing or future.

[Vin]

delete

[Vin]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

The motion as it read was too narrowly focused for the UBCM, which is supposed to be looking at resolutions that have a provincial impact. Asking the Province for a rail line that would benefit only one regional district and a part of a second is too narrow for UBCM, and it looks like LMLGA is even thinking it's too narrowly focused for them too.

Keep in mind that the motion only mentions Delta, Surrey, Langley, Abbotsford, and Chilliwack. The SRY line only comes close to SkyTrain stations at Scott Road and maybe where it crosses Fraser Highway, but that crossing is a good three Langley blocks away from either SkyTrain station so making it a transfer point is going to be difficult. The CN line doesn't come anywhere near any SkyTrain stations south of the Fraser, either existing or future.

Like I said before, if not Surrey, Langley will have a new Skytrain station in the near future to connect to other parts of the region.

Even though the new skytrain extension will have Willowbrook Station at Fraser Hwy and 196 Street, a new transfer station can be installed on the skytrain guideway at the railway line that crosses at Fraser Hwy and Production Hwy. That is an excellent transfer point.
https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1104...8192?entry=ttu
https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1104...8192?entry=ttu

Therefore, I don't agree with you that the focus is too narrow.

Naysayers will find anything to reject the long-term plan for commuter railway.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

blah blah blah

They're already planning for the future - it's called the Fraser Valley Express, and its bus lanes are under construction as we speak. Gotta walk before you can run... or in the case of the interurban, limp with crutches.

Originally Posted by Vin

A typical NIMBY response.

Says the poster siding with the people who oppose the Vancouver Plan, Broadway Plan, UBC SkyTrain, Langley SkyTrains and the Jericho Lands. If they're all on one side of the argument, it's the wrong side for urbanism.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Vin

Therefore, I don't agree with you that the focus is too narrow.

Just for the record, I'm not the one saying that the focus of the Township of Langley's motion is too narrow. UBCM and LMLGA are saying that the focus of the Township of Langley's motion is too narrow. The people who have much more power over this sort of thing than you and I are saying the focus is too narrow.

[ssiguy]

Migrant_Coconut........

You bring up express bus and the FV Express and those are great ideas and ones that should be expanded. I NEVER have said, nor even implied, that BRT/Express is not part of the solution for regional travel in Vancouver. Quite the contrary, they are an essential part of the equation. GO has rail but it also has a massive GO express all-day bus network that is well patronized and connects centres where rail is not yet viable or even possible.

That, however, is not the point I have been making..........transit must be a coordinated system in order to work effectively to get people to where they are going fast, efficiently, affordably, and comfortably and with that in mind, there is no such thing as a "one-size-fits-all" transit solution. This means that Translink/Victoria/BC Transit must take proactive steps NOW in order to diversify its transit options in the future. That means rezoning so that rail corridors are maintained and working with the freight providers to buy up the corridors or allow them to be widened with co-ownership with rails for freight and different ones for passengers which can be advantageous for both parties.

Again, buses may be fine for now but transit planning isn't for immediate needs but long-term ones of 20,30 or 50 years. As the population continues to grow, the sprawl continues to spread, and people continue to move from suburb to suburb commuting, those few rush-hour buses today may become 100 buses or more a day when paying for them, maintaining them, and operating them will cost vastly more than running rail lines.

Imagine if 40 years ago, Vancouver had decided that increasing bus frequencies was the preferred option over the SkyTrain..............think what a pickle Vancouver would be in. Planning for regional rail is the exact same thing.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Migrant_Coconut........

You bring up express bus and the FV Express and those are great ideas and ones that should be expanded. I NEVER have said, nor even implied, that BRT/Express is not part of the solution for regional travel in Vancouver.

Agree here. Although I think the problem with the FVX in its current iteration is that it's a Chilliwack Initiative as opposed to a regional thing. you can see that in it's current implementation... picking up Chilliwackers and then making stops at Park n' Rides on the way to Lougheed. I'd like to see the addition of an Abby based FVX or have it as part of a Fraser Valley Transit agency.

Quite the contrary, they are an essential part of the equation. GO has rail but it also has a massive GO express all-day bus network that is well patronized and connects centres where rail is not yet viable or even possible.

Yes, that's true... it's a real network effort, as opposed to a patchwork. They have the advantage of larger cities Mississauga and Brampton as part of the network... where the TTC is really only Toronto. GO here would be like spinning off Surrey/Coquitlam/Langley/North Shore transit into it's own thing... while having Vancouver/Burnaby/Richmond as the VTC (or something)

I'd like to see an Abby/Chwk/Mission/Langley Fraser Valley Transit Authority... that's really the only way we're going to get decent intercity transportation, be it buses, LRT, heavy rail or "other"

That means rezoning so that rail corridors are maintained and working with the freight providers to buy up the corridors or allow them to be widened with co-ownership with rails for freight and different ones for passengers which can be advantageous for both parties.

Agree that there should be conversation and alignments planned now... much like the M-Line was built before the communities around the line were. But you'd have to have communities want to density around these places like Milner and Bradner... perhaps with an initial hub in Langley connecting to the SkyTrain line.

You have to plan the communities around the potential rail station... but you can't plan a rail station where there are no communities. You can't buy up the SRY tracks... or offer to co-share them when you don't have a plan in place to USE them.

Again, buses may be fine for now but transit planning isn't for immediate needs but long-term ones of 20,30 or 50 years. As the population continues to grow, the sprawl continues to spread, and people continue to move from suburb to suburb commuting, those few rush-hour buses today may become 100 buses or more a day when paying for them, maintaining them, and operating them will cost vastly more than running rail lines.

I think it's less about a whole bunch of buses and more about planning town centres around possible rail stations.

I'd agree that we need a longer-term plan though... that isn't SkyTrain... Still think they should expand the WCE to Abby though!

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

- snip -

Except GO corridors take people to where they want to go. That's not the case with the Lower Mainland:

So even if we wait a hundred years, the interurban will NEVER be useful to long-term planning and talking about buying it back is a waste of time.
SkyTrain is useful/popular because it's faster, more frequent and more reliable than the express buses it replaces; the restored interurban would not be, because it's slower, less frequent, and not reliable compared to the FVX (because it's very indirect and has to share with the freight trains), and restoring it would mean spending so much transit funding that everybody else in the region would have to go without their own expansion projects for the next decade or two. Wanting more funding for the Valley is understandable, but ALL the money on a white elephant is a little selfish.

Just like Vancouver had to run B-Lines and RapidBuses to justify SkyTrain, what the Valley can do is run the FVX more often (which itself is a straight line between all major Valley destinations); at its pre-pandemic peak, it was running about ~700 people/day, and eventually, there'll be enough to justify some kind of elevated REM down Highway 1. The BCER had its time, but now it's no good.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Imagine if 40 years ago, Vancouver had decided that increasing bus frequencies was the preferred option over the SkyTrain..............think what a pickle Vancouver would be in. Planning for regional rail is the exact same thing.

We literally did exactly this, 30 years ago they used to be called B-Lines, and now they're called RapidBusses. Then, when the capacity was insufficient we upgraded them to Skytrain lines (see 99 B-Line, 98 B-Line, and soon to be R2?)

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Imagine if 40 years ago, Vancouver had decided that increasing bus frequencies was the preferred option over the SkyTrain..............think what a pickle Vancouver would be in. Planning for regional rail is the exact same thing.

Yeah just imagine how Translink literally dumped a flood of buses on the Broadway Corridor for the B-Line until they had the funding and business case to fund a rapid transit extension.