Trolley busses in Edmonton
 

The debate surrounding the retirement of Edmontons' trolley bus system has been going on for some time, & I'm interested to hear what people here think.

There are pros and cons to keeping the system in place. The pros are that the busses keep pollution out of the city (As a cyclist I certainly appreciate this) and that they are still relatively inexpensive to operate. They also have a certain nostalgic value as well. On the few occasions I have ridden on a trolley bus, I've always enjoyed how they just seem to glide along, without making any noise.

The cons are more numerous, in my opinion. While the trolley busses keep diesel exhaust out of the city, the power to run them is generated by burning coal & natural gas outside of the city, so the environmental benefits really are negligible. Trolley busses operate in primarily older neighborhoods, many of which are trying to gentrify, and the mess of overhead cabling is pretty ugly, and poses problems in creating attractive streetscapes in neighborhoods like Alberta Avenue. Also, while the system is relatively reliable, it is getting old. If there is a power loss to the system, the busses stop in their tracks. The busses are also notorious for jumping off the cables. How many times have you seen a trolley bus, stopped in the midle of an intersection, with the driver around back trying to fish the arms back onto the cables ?

So what do you think ? Trolley busses: stay or go ?

Your opinions don't really seem to justify. The buses you've mentioned are the ones we have right now. New trolleybuses can avoid stopping in the middle of the intersection even after dewiring. Drivers can also take advantage of the power steering and on-dashboard rewiring. There should be an option of having the entire fleet renewed. Of course, pretty much everyone wants to have these old beaters retired and out of sight, just like the GM diesels. Even though I am a trolley supporter, the ones we have now are inefficient, unreliable and potentially dangerous. Inefficient, because there's no regenerative braking. Unreliable because they are aging, no on-board battery backup and it breaks down too much. Dangerous, because drivers got honked at by blocked traffic. What citizens need is patience. In just more than a year, the entire system can be refreshed and have all the aforementioned problems solved.

From my experience of riding current trolleybuses, most riders complained because of delays from various problems that made commute times longer than they were expecting. On-board batteries makes all the difference. No more delays, no more backup diesels, able to maneuver around any detours and potentially less EPCOR standby crew. If power is lost, chances are only a section of the network is lost. New trolleys can keep moving like normal until a section breaker is reached, where it can be rewired with very little delay. All of these problems are plaguing our current trolley system, discouraging some riders from even riding them again, which means less ridership along these routes. If one thinks that battery costs too much, think again, because hybrid buses will be using on-board batteries too.

Everyone should take a chance and ride the leased New Flyer trolleybus that is supposed to be in Edmonton later this year. I am very confident that this will be light years better than what we have now. I can guarantee that once it's being tested in Edmonton, many will learn how to hate the old trolleybuses more.

I do have a question to make. From the fractional distillation process that are commonly found in petroleum refineries, how much energy is needed to separate crude oil into various parts such as diesel? For sure, it must take more energy than a generating power plant. Even more than the transmission losses from the trolley overhead. Is that right?

Get rid of them unless the city can update and make them efficient.

This poll is very misleading. Some would vote yes because they are aging. This issue should be a matter of whether or not to renew the trolley system.

-Keep the trolleys as is
-Replace the fleet with new low floor trolleys
-Replace the fleet with hybrids

I couldn't agree more!

I agree - keep them efficient and I'm all for them. They are in need of an update.

Something romantic about the lines that run the streets though... would be kinda sad to see them go....

Nope. Update it.

240, you're misrepresenting the pollution issue. You imply that trolley and diesel busses pollute equally only one does it in the city and the other at the power plant. No where do you mention the energy required to refine the diesel nor the fact that electric motors are much more efficient in their energy use.

I vote to get rid of them based on a personal aesthetic preference. I detest the clutter of trolley lines and poles. I don't know the facts on electric vs. diesel and obviously couldn't justify my vote if it were shown conclusively that trolleys and the costs of maintaining their infrastructure were significantly more cost effective and less polluting.

Rico, you're absolutely right, however, the option to remove them should be considered as well, for several reasons.

I assume the cost of new, hybrid or battery equipped trolley busses would be far greater than a traditional diesel bus. We'd have to decide if buying more expensive trolleys was worth the added expense. If yes, then it would be logical to modernize the system.

The other, more debateable reason for possibly retiring the system is, as mentioned in the first post, the asthetics of the system, and the difficulty of revitalizing old neighborhoods while maintaining the trolley infrastructure.

Personally, I don't really have a strong opinion either way... that's why I posted this poll. Seems from the results it's a pretty even split.

As an asside, has anyone seen either of the two hydrogen fuel cell busses that were supposed to be testing here ?

They are hybrid DE buses. They are on the 106 route.

When I said hybrid, I really mean diesel electric and dismantle the overhead system. New low floor trolleys will be battery equipped. But keep in mind though, new hybrids that are on the 106 are also battery equipped, so those vehicles also don't come cheap.

Maybe find one a few decades old and restore it like new and keep one line as a touristy thing?

I say lose the system regardless of how much improved the new trolley busses are.

My reasoning is purely esthetic. I hate the ugly mess of wires. Not only are there are lot of wires and cables to support these wires, but there are also countless poles to support the cables that support the wires.

Please be f**king kidding...you want to have what most likely amounts to well over a billion dollars of operational infrastructure removed because it isn't esthetically appealing? Are you joking...seriously?
You want to pay crews millions of dollars to demolish and decommission a billion+ dollars worth of equipment?
How about spend those millions on new trolleys and get the system up and going with 95% uptime...oh wait we already have that, now imagine what new trolleys would do.

This isn't burying power/tel/cable, when you bury those they are still there, this is removing the infrastructure.
Come on guys get real with this "its ugly" argument...

It is debateable, but a valid concern, IMO. For instance, our community league and several other organizations are looking for ways to revitalize the 118 avenue strip, and one of the big concerns is the overhead lines & supporting poles & guy wires, especially at intersections like 95 & 118, and 82 & 118. No, it's not a band of marauding low income complainers telling the city that they need to rip the system out, consultants and community leaders agree, it's just ugly and detracts from the overall plan. We've recognized that following through with our plan to upgrade the area will be made difficult if we need to keep the trolley bus infrastructure, especially with the re-zoning and narowing 118 ave to two lanes. I know to some this argument is petty, but it is still valid.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s...t/IMGP0294.jpg

Ease up on the f**king rant argument and show me the comparison numbers ... seriously. Real numbers with consideration for circumstances and options.

Do the trolleys even operate in the summer? I heard they have to park the fleet because of construction.

I don't know. It would go a loooong way towards making Edmonton look prettier. I really, really, completely and utterly fucking hate visual clutter.

And I don't see the appeal of trolleys...

They do, but keep in mind that new trolleys can maneuver around any road construction. Detours like Westmount right now should also work as well. Our current trolleys won't even have a chance.

You're right, all that visual clutter is a bit of an eyesore. Most of the time, visual clutter is exposed to an open sky. There are two possible ways to hide that clutter: trees and/or a wall of low-rises. Run-down places like 118 Ave and 109 St stretch are poised for revitalization. Revitalization includes 3-4 storey buildings and more trees. Both are designed to obscure the visual clutter of the trolley overhead as much as possible.

yup, the trolley system operates year round.

I've had to work with the city to remove trolley lines to do crane lifts downtown. When a section of the line is taken out of service, they simply use a diesel bus for that route.