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-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

blueandgoldguy Nov 14, 2018 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8378277)
You originally said they rely on gates, IE solely tickets to enter the stadium:
Well by gates I meant all the revenue derived from in-stadium revenue.
Excuse me:rolleyes:



EDM/SSK are relying on 40% of their revenues just from gates. Winnipeg is tougher to discern since they change the categorization of their revenues every few years.
I would have to take a look at the financial reports for the team. Too lazy to right now. Perhaps, Edmonton, Saskatchewan are including suites/club seats, concessions and in-stadium advertising in the gate revenues? Also, sponsorships can include blocks of seats or the rights to buy blocks of empty seats for pennies on the dollar to that could possibly be tied in the gat revenue as well depending on how they account for it

It would be affected by league-wide attendance, then, if they're league-wide sponsors. League-wide attendance has been increasing the past few years and is only stalling because the new stadiums they're building are effectively a drag on the current league average (LA/DC, and MIN when it comes online are all below or at league average attendance). It would also affect TV deals since you can still see sponsors when viewing on TV.
That's true. I am referring to sponsorship at a local/regional level

For 2019, Portland's stadium expansion moves that stadium from 21K to 25K and Cincinnati joining the league provides a 25K-30K bump to the average.

Shirt sponsor revenue by Canadian MLS team, per year:
Montreal (BMO): $4M
Toronto (BMO): $4M
Vancouver (Bell): $3.9M

http://www.totalfootballmag.com/feat...are-to-europe/


Either way it's a hefty amount of money to invest in a team. The thing with the investor-operator model for MLS franchise ownership is that profits and deficits are filtered through MLS as a whole. Saputo may lose $10M/year on the Impact but if the franchise valuation, revenues, and cash flows increase then that's fine in the short-term. It's if revenues level off where there is an issue with running in the red.

Teams are only worth what individuals are willing to pay for them. In fairness there was a team that sold a few years ago for slightly higher then the Forbes estimate so in that case they seemed to be reasonably accurate.
I think another team sold as well. The terms of the sale for the Columbus Crew haven't been released as I believe it is still being negotiated. We haven't seen one of the big teams sell though so those values may be speculative at this point.


Again, MLS teams make more from revenues than simply what their stadium is able to provide them. VWFC's situation at BC Place isn't great, though.
Yes, they do. The gate from the stadium and ancillary revenues from the stadium are by far the most important. The WhiteCaps ancillary revenues from BC Place can generously be described as lacking as well. They also lie about attendance, not new in the world of sports but something to make note of.

https://biv.com/article/2016/07/vanc...attendance-num


That would be $1M each just for the sleeve.
There was an article stating that each team would received an additional $1 million per season as an addional corporate patch is to be placed on the jersey

The current TV deal will grow when it expires in 2021/2022. Average ratings in both the US and Canada have been increasing year over year, and MLS is the only NA sports league that has seen consistent year over year growth over the past half decade. The new jersey deal with Adidas is a sign that sponsors are willing to go in on the sport, and having a sponsor like Target bail on NASCAR before committing to MLS says a lot about the corporate atmosphere south of the border right now.

The current TV deal should increase, but by how much remains to be seen. Ratings did not increase year-over-year the previous season before this one.

https://www.libertynation.com/the-po...league-soccer/

The league’s bread and butter – TV ratings – is lagging. During regular-season matchups, TV viewers averaged fewer than 300,000. And it wasn’t great for the MLS Cup final either, which drew in 11 million viewers, a 43% decline across ESPN and Univision Deportes. This is bad news since ratings drive advertising.

Ratings on TSN are still so small that they refuse to publish them.



See bolded.

JHikka Nov 14, 2018 1:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 8378335)
How does it make sense for BMO to spend $4 million to put their tiny logo on a jersey that only, maybe, 100k people including both tv viewers and those in attendance, will see?

Because sports advertising is about more than simply counting TV viewers every week. It's a very antiquated way to look at things by simply looking at TV numbers alone and assuming X=Y.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 8378335)
I would expect then that CFL teams should be able to garner at least $8 million for jersey sponsors, seeing as they get at least 4-5 times the tv viewers... seems like real bad business either on the jersey sponsor for spending that much, or the CFL teams not raking in at least twice or three times what TFC, Van or Mtl get.

Again, there's more going on than simply TV. This isn't the 1980s anymore.

Unfortunately the CFL doesn't make public any sponsorship figures. There are some team numbers available, though.

Edmonton total operating revenue for 2017 was $25M (rounded up).
Sponsorships made up 21.5% of operating revenue.
Sponsorship revenue in 2017: $5.35M

That's total sponsorship revenue for a CFL team in a strong football market.

Here's a full breakdown for the Eskimos 2017 operating revenue sources, courtesy of their annual report:

Gate Receipts 39.40% ($10.0M)
Sponsorships 21.50% ($5.35M)
CFL (TV) 17.00% ($4.30M)
Concessions/Game Day 16.70% ($4.20M)
Merchandise 4.70% ($1.25M)
Other 0.5%
Post-Season 0.10%
TOTAL REVENUE $25M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 8378335)
And $1 million each JUST for the sleeve?... seems crazy to think ad sponsors are willing to pay that much for such minimal eyes to see. CFL teams should get with it Andy start raking in multi millions worth, if TFC is setting that standard.

TFC isn't setting the standard - MLS is. The difference between MLS TV audiences and CFL TV audiences is that MLS audiences are younger on average and sponsors aren't going after older viewers. There's nothing in it for a sponsor to go after older viewers because their buying habits are less likely to change.

Remember, the 18-49 demographic on CFL TSN in 2016 only accounts for 32% of the viewing audience. The rest is 50+.

https://plot.ly/~grspur/1405/#/

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy
I would have to take a look at the financial reports for the team. Too lazy to right now. Perhaps, Edmonton, Saskatchewan are including suites/club seats, concessions and in-stadium advertising in the gate revenues? Also, sponsorships can include blocks of seats or the rights to buy blocks of empty seats for pennies on the dollar to that could possibly be tied in the gat revenue as well depending on how they account for it

Edmonton splits Game Day/Concessions from Gate Receipts. See above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy
Teams are only worth what individuals are willing to pay for them. In fairness there was a team that sold a few years ago for slightly higher then the Forbes estimate so in that case they seemed to be reasonably accurate.
I think another team sold as well. The terms of the sale for the Columbus Crew haven't been released as I believe it is still being negotiated. We haven't seen one of the big teams sell though so those values may be speculative at this point.

A portion of Orlando City was sold and that put the value of the team at roughly $500M. Probably a bit of an overvaluation, IMO, but that's sort of what's setting the bar. I don't think anything with Columbus has been released but that's understandable given how messy that whole situation was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy
The current TV deal should increase, but by how much remains to be seen. Ratings did not increase year-over-year the previous season before this one.

https://www.libertynation.com/the-po...league-soccer/

I don't even know where to begin with that article. Most of it is rubbish and lifted from Wikipedia by the looks of it. Have you looked at the home page of that website?

Here's Forbes saying that MLS viewership grew in 2017 year over year (not by a ton), and here's SBD confirming 2018 growth in TV figures.

Again, it's 2018, and there's more going on than simply putting a magnifying glass on TV numbers and expecting them to answer all your questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy
Ratings on TSN are still so small that they refuse to publish them.

Corporations in Canada hardly ever post TV ratings - only during playoffs or marquee matchups. I think CFLPR only publicly announced ratings for opening weekend and then went radio silent. The only sourcing we have for those are 3downnation. Bell usually posts playoffs numbers and that's it. This isn't an issue with MLS on TSN, it's an issue with all sports. How often do we hear about Raptors ratings? Or Leafs ratings? Very rarely, and certainly not for every game.

Again, even if MLS TV numbers are lower in Canada than CFL numbers, it's the demographic that counts. If a million people on average watch a CFL game but nearly 700K of them are over 50 that doesn't mean anything to advertisers. Companies are looking to sell to young people and more young people watch soccer than football. :P

EpicPonyTime Nov 14, 2018 1:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 8378335)
How does it make sense for BMO to spend $4 million to put their tiny logo on a jersey that only, maybe, 100k people including both tv viewers and those in attendance, will see?

I would expect then that CFL teams should be able to garner at least $8 million for jersey sponsors, seeing as they get at least 4-5 times the tv viewers... seems like real bad business either on the jersey sponsor for spending that much, or the CFL teams not raking in at least twice or three times what TFC, Van or Mtl get.

And $1 million each JUST for the sleeve?... seems crazy to think ad sponsors are willing to pay that much for such minimal eyes to see. CFL teams should get with it Andy start raking in multi millions worth, if TFC is setting that standard.

I don't really want to see the CFL put ads on their jerseys, but it might be a good idea depending on how much companies are willing to pay for it. It could be a solid boost to their bottom lines which can help combat the stagnant attendance and TV ratings. Especially if it could help lead to higher salaries for the players, I'm all for it; unfortunately the CFL isn't in the position where they should/could turn down a few million for each team.

I'm sure they can do better than CP Rail if they wanted to.

king10 Nov 14, 2018 2:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime (Post 8378435)
I don't really want to see the CFL put ads on their jerseys, but it might be a good idea depending on how much companies are willing to pay for it. It could be a solid boost to their bottom lines which can help combat the stagnant attendance and TV ratings. Especially if it could help lead to higher salaries for the players, I'm all for it; unfortunately the CFL isn't in the position where they should/could turn down a few million for each team.

I'm sure they can do better than CP Rail if they wanted to.

Am i living on a totally differnt planet?

1. Cfl has had sponsor patches on their jerseys for years
2. CP rail is one of the largest most profitable companies in canada that sure provides the CFL with a large steady income stream. Not to mention credibilty as CP is a very credible company

elly63 Nov 14, 2018 2:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8378416)
Again, even if MLS TV numbers are lower in Canada than CFL numbers, it's the demographic that counts. If a million people on average watch a CFL game but nearly 700K of them are over 50 that doesn't mean anything to advertisers. Companies are looking to sell to young people and more young people watch soccer than football.

Problem is no one watches MLS in Canada, when the cult millennial following tires in the local markets, they're could have a real problem. TSN was looking at cancelling the contract a few years ago, when the ratings averaged 38k. Had TFC not started performing better it could have been gone, but they saved themselves for the present.

Just wondering how you think the PGA Golf tour is able to air every week on network TV with its dearth of young viewers?

You're always the first guy who goes into the CFL thread to shit on any good news someone posts. Why is that? No one goes into your MLS/TFC thread, in fact there's not too many posts there at all.

JHikka Nov 14, 2018 2:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8378509)
Problem is no one watches MLS in Canada, when the cult millennial following tires in the local markets, they're could have a real problem.

Has there been any actual sign of this happening, though? Otherwise it's just idle speculation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8378509)
TSN was looking at cancelling the contract a few years ago, when the ratings averaged 38k. Had TFC not started performing better it could have been gone, but they saved themselves for the present.

Any sourcing on this? Regardless, TSN viewing figures for TFC in 2018 are nearly quadruple that number, and all three teams are north of 100K. Impact averaged 114K on TVA this year, as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8378509)
Just wondering how you think the PGA Golf tour is able to air every week on network TV with its dearth of young viewers?

Tiger. The PGA tour is hitting eight and nine year highs now that he's competitive again.

NASCAR would be a better comparison in the US for the CFL, but this thread isn't about the US and Golf numbers in Canada are rarely available. :)

elly63 Nov 14, 2018 2:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8378514)
Tiger.

You know golf did exist before Mr Woods. Bear

elly63 Nov 14, 2018 2:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8378514)
Any sourcing on this? Regardless, TSN viewing figures for TFC in 2018 are nearly quadruple that number.

Stop, I think I've just hurt my ribs :)

elly63 Nov 14, 2018 3:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8378516)
You know golf did exist before Mr Woods. Bear

Hmmmm

https://i.imgur.com/rBdHfid.jpg

Acajack Nov 14, 2018 4:13 AM

Just wondering... who says advertisers don't care about people over 50?

EpicPonyTime Nov 14, 2018 5:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by king10 (Post 8378471)
Am i living on a totally differnt planet?

1. Cfl has had sponsor patches on their jerseys for years
2. CP rail is one of the largest most profitable companies in canada that sure provides the CFL with a large steady income stream. Not to mention credibilty as CP is a very credible company

I was referring to larger sponsorships on the jerseys similar to what MLS has. A front-and-centre advertisement would command far more money than a small patch which can barely be seen on television.

I can't imagine what CP Rail pays is significant, since I can't imagine they gain a lot of new customers from the patch (do they even have consumer services? I thought they were largely business-oriented). Open the jersey up to bigger ads and I imagine you'd get the banks and companies like Microsoft bidding for it since it would expand their marketing and possibly get them more customers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8378606)
Just wondering... who says advertisers don't care about people over 50?

I do find that a little strange myself. There's sense in the argument that old people are less likely to change their purchasing habits... but they're also the ones with money.

Acajack Nov 14, 2018 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime (Post 8378664)
I was referring to larger sponsorships on the jerseys similar to what MLS has. A front-and-centre advertisement would command far more money than a small patch which can barely be seen on television.

I can't imagine what CP Rail pays is significant, since I can't imagine they gain a lot of new customers from the patch (do they even have consumer services? I thought they were largely business-oriented). Open the jersey up to bigger ads and I imagine you'd get the banks and companies like Microsoft bidding for it since it would expand their marketing and possibly get them more customers.



I do find that a little strange myself. There's sense in the argument that old people are less likely to change their purchasing habits... but they're also the ones with money.

Who buys Audis, who buys bottles of Veuve-Cliquot, who buys vacation properties?

VANRIDERFAN Nov 14, 2018 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8378807)
Who buys Audis, who buys bottles of Veuve-Cliquot, who buys vacation properties?

Young people bring energy to the event, older people bring cash.

JHikka Nov 14, 2018 4:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8378606)
Just wondering... who says advertisers don't care about people over 50?

Oh, I didn't say anything about advertisers not caring about those 50+ - it's just that they care more about younger people for the sake of trending future business.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime (Post 8378664)
I do find that a little strange myself. There's sense in the argument that old people are less likely to change their purchasing habits... but they're also the ones with money.

Today, maybe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYT
Still, this most coveted generation [Millennials] is huge — about 80 million strong in the United States, larger than any other demographic group. And it recently crossed a milestone: As of March there are more millennials in the American work force than Generation Xers or baby boomers, according to the Pew Research Center. The consulting firm Accenture estimates that millennials will spend $1.4 trillion annually by 2020, and they are expected to inherit about $30 billion in the coming years.

“Why you’re seeing the fervor now is just where millennials are headed — out from the younger part of their life stage to where they’re in their first profession, they’re getting married, having children and influencing more spending,” said Christine Barton, a senior partner and managing director at the Boston Consulting Group.

As a result, businesses are terrified that if they don’t snare them now, they’ll miss the chance.

Emphasis added mine.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/21/b...tion.html?_r=0

There's also the upside of potential long-term brand liability:

Quote:

Originally Posted by socialmediatoday
The most significant benefit to attracting a Millennial audience is their potential long-term value to a brand. However, a common misconception is that they aren't brand loyal because there are always new and improved products entering the market.

https://www.socialmediatoday.com/mar...ed-millennials

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime (Post 8378664)
I can't imagine what CP Rail pays is significant, since I can't imagine they gain a lot of new customers from the patch (do they even have consumer services? I thought they were largely business-oriented).

I think cfldb had a little blurb about there being confusion when the CP patches were added to jerseys because people didn't know what CP stood for or that it was a railway company. I think some people were reaching out asking if the patch meant the player was a Canadian Player or a Captain or something.

esquire Nov 14, 2018 4:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8379070)
I think cfldb had a little blurb about there being confusion when the CP patches were added to jerseys because people didn't know what CP stood for or that it was a railway company. I think some people were reaching out asking if the patch meant the player was a Canadian Player or a Captain or something.

Ha, I could totally see people thinking it was part of the uniform. The CP patches didn't have a recognizable logo or anything, they just said "CP"... they didn't look all that dissimilar from the captain patches you see in the NFL.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/2DUGs.png
https://www.cpr.ca/en/community-site...nry-Burris.jpg

Denscity Nov 14, 2018 8:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8379128)
Ha, I could totally see people thinking it was part of the uniform. The CP patches didn't have a recognizable logo or anything, they just said "CP"... they didn't look all that dissimilar from the captain patches you see in the NFL.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/2DUGs.png
https://www.cpr.ca/en/community-site...nry-Burris.jpg

I think that is one of CP’s logo/font.

esquire Nov 14, 2018 8:08 PM

^ The 'c' is the NFL's captain patch. It definitely looks similar to the CP patch.

JHikka Nov 16, 2018 2:44 PM

Couple numbers from this article on the potential sale of the BC Lions:

https://theprovince.com/sports/footb...-has-old-teeth

"Woodall and Keith made Braley a formal offer last year in the $14-million range that was rejected. That offer is now off the table, largely because the two businessmen believe the Lions are a diminishing asset. Average attendance was actually up marginally this year over last from 19,858 per game in 2017 to 19,975 in 2018. That ended a run of seven consecutive seasons in which attendance fell."

...

“We’re back at 2002 or 2003 with where the organization sits,” Woodall said.

...

There are other factors to consider. The Ottawa Redblacks, for example, paid a franchise fee of a reported $7 million when they came into the league for the 2014 season. The number for the proposed team in the Maritimes hasn’t been made public but it’s thought to be in that range.
...

Braley, meanwhile, has maintained there are other parties interested in owning the team. Again, that may be the case, and Canucks Sports and Entertainment remains a wild card as a potential buyer.

But a quick check with sources said they also believe the asking price is too high, which brings us back to Woodall and Keith."

UrbanClimate Nov 16, 2018 8:30 PM

CFL Playoff Ratings
 
http://3downnation.com/2018/11/16/cf...f-numbers-dip/

"The Winnipeg Blue Bomber’s win over the Saskatchewan Roughriders in the West semi drew an average audience of 1,280,000, making it the most-watched game of the CFL season thus far. The Riders have been the league’s top draw by a significant margin in 2018 and the game was close all the way to the final whistle.

But the East semifinal between the B.C. Lions and Hamilton Tiger-Cats was a blowout early and ended with the Ticats winning 48-8, which goes some way to explain the disappointing audience of 697,800. That’s less than the Ticats Labour Day game against the Argos, which drew 744,000."

esquire Nov 16, 2018 8:38 PM

^ 28-0 at the half feels great when you're a Ticats fan, but I guess it doesn't do much for the ratings!

Hackslack Nov 16, 2018 8:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UrbanClimate (Post 8382022)
http://3downnation.com/2018/11/16/cf...f-numbers-dip/

"The Winnipeg Blue Bomber’s win over the Saskatchewan Roughriders in the West semi drew an average audience of 1,280,000, making it the most-watched game of the CFL season thus far. The Riders have been the league’s top draw by a significant margin in 2018 and the game was close all the way to the final whistle.

But the East semifinal between the B.C. Lions and Hamilton Tiger-Cats was a blowout early and ended with the Ticats winning 48-8, which goes some way to explain the disappointing audience of 697,800. That’s less than the Ticats Labour Day game against the Argos, which drew 744,000."

Is that 1 western final game tv ratings more than all 3 Canadian MLS teams season ratings combined?

JHikka Nov 16, 2018 9:09 PM

The CFL v MLS turf war stuff is going to be stopping here. Posts have been removed before and they'll be removed again. Try to talk about ratings without disparaging/trolling others. Constructive comparisons are fine but one-line pot shots aren't going to cut it. :tup:

Berklon Nov 17, 2018 6:37 AM

Looks like NFL viewership in Canada is up again this year.

NFL TV viewership in Canada up 19% over last year

Quote:

An empirical study conducted for the NFL revealed there are 12 million NFL fans in Canada this year, Turcke said – up 7% from 2017.

“That’s a big number. That’s a third of the country,” she said. “We’re big in Canada, we’re going to get bigger and we’re going to stay, that’s for sure.”

JHikka Nov 17, 2018 6:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon (Post 8382454)
Looks like NFL viewership in Canada is up again this year.

The numbers from the article as they're pertinent to this thread:

"In Canada, average audiences through Week 8 (i.e., through October) have grown by double-digit percentages in each of five weekly NFL game time slots, year over year:

Early Sunday afternoon: 890,000, up 12%.
Late Sunday afternoon: 969,000, up 16%.
Sunday night: 825,000, up 33%.
Monday night: 597,000, up 12%.
Thursday night: 634,000, up 12%."


As the article outlines some of this increase is simply due to moving games around on channels (between Sportnets and CTV2, or TSN, or whatever) but some of it is raw year-over-year increase as a whole.

elly63 Nov 17, 2018 8:14 PM

Has the question ever been answered (with proof) if Ottawa is a measured TV market included in national ratings?

SignalHillHiker Nov 17, 2018 8:37 PM

Strange thing has happened here... the St. John's Edge are one of the more successful baskbetball teams in their league. Carl English said it was easy to recruit this year telling the American men, "Oh we'll get nearly 5K on a weeknight, more on the weekends, and they're very vocal..." - they were surprised.

On the flipside... the Newfoundland Growlers (ECHL) hockey team is on its 7th straight win and they're struggling to fill the seats.

JHikka Nov 17, 2018 9:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8382730)
Has the question ever been answered (with proof) if Ottawa is a measured TV market included in national ratings?

Via Numeris:
http://assets.numeris.ca/Documents/D...ed_Markets.pdf

AFAIK all of the communities included in the above pdf are included in their National numbers (except for Quebec, which gets its own separate release) for TV Top 30 weekly ratings.

To answer your question: Yes, most likely Ottawa is included in national ratings.

JHikka Nov 17, 2018 9:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker (Post 8382742)
Strange thing has happened here... the St. John's Edge are one of the more successful baskbetball teams in their league. Carl English said it was easy to recruit this year telling the American men, "Oh we'll get nearly 5K on a weeknight, more on the weekends, and they're very vocal..." - they were surprised.

On the flipside... the Newfoundland Growlers (ECHL) hockey team is on its 7th straight win and they're struggling to fill the seats.

A cursory glance at the NBLCanada annual report from last season shows that the Edge only drew near 5,000 for a regular season game on a handful of occasions and only drew over 5,000 once - in a playoff game. I haven't done any of the math but it looks like they drew equal crowds last year to what the Growlers have been drawing so far this year (the Growlers are averaging 3,880 so far this season).

isaidso Nov 17, 2018 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon (Post 8382454)
Looks like NFL viewership in Canada is up again this year.

Quite a leap but isn't this a Canadian Sports thread? It doesn't belong here any more than news about Germany's Bundesliga or India's IPL

Berklon Nov 18, 2018 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 8382842)
Quite a leap but isn't this a Canadian Sports thread? It doesn't belong here any more than news about Germany's Bundesliga or India's IPL

It's a sport in which a lot of Canadians watch, and has a big impact on TV ratings and marketing - so I think it belongs. No point in nitpicking and trying to make this a science.

SignalHillHiker Nov 18, 2018 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8382788)
A cursory glance at the NBLCanada annual report from last season shows that the Edge only drew near 5,000 for a regular season game on a handful of occasions and only drew over 5,000 once - in a playoff game. I haven't done any of the math but it looks like they drew equal crowds last year to what the Growlers have been drawing so far this year (the Growlers are averaging 3,880 so far this season).

Ooh, that's not what they're claiming on radio. They said nearly 5,000 every game, over on weekends. Verbatim. Is there a way to see the Growlers attendance? :D Because if they're comparable, then that's probably an intentional exaggeration to make that point.

Marty_Mcfly Nov 18, 2018 2:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker (Post 8382894)
Ooh, that's not what they're claiming on radio. They said nearly 5,000 every game, over on weekends. Verbatim. Is there a way to see the Growlers attendance? :D Because if they're comparable, then that's probably an intentional exaggeration to make that point.

Last season the Edge averaged 3638 attendees per game. Likely there were more during the weekend, and less during the weekday. That average though is 2nd highest in the league, behind only the London Lightning.

I would suspect Growler attendance is around that, possibly a little more. Average attendance numbers probably aren't available yet since it's their first season and the season is still young. Their first home game was a sellout though, at around 6200 people, and night two has 5325 attendees. I would guess it'll even out around 4000-4200 a game, which is around what the Ice Caps averaged in their lame duck (ie. last) year in St. John's, when everyone knew they were leaving so they decided to try and not get any more emotionally invested.

EDIT: I found the ECHL's reports on attendance, I'll get you a number.

EDIT 2: Good guess on my part, their current average attendance is 3929 a game.

esquire Nov 18, 2018 3:06 PM

^ I wonder if there is some hockey fatigue in St. John's with the carousel of teams that have been coming and going over the last 20 years? It's probably tough to build up much of a clientele when every few years it's a new team and a new league starting from scratch again... that type of disruption probably doesn't create the most enticing proposition for local hockey fans. If I was faced with that I'd probably opt to stay home and watch the NHL on TV instead.

Marty_Mcfly Nov 18, 2018 3:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8383125)
^ I wonder if there is some hockey fatigue in St. John's with the carousel of teams that have been coming and going over the last 20 years? It's probably tough to build up much of a clientele when every few years it's a new team and a new league starting from scratch again... that type of disruption probably doesn't create the most enticing proposition for local hockey fans. If I was faced with that I'd probably opt to stay home and watch the NHL on TV instead.

It showed in the last IceCaps season. People just didn't want to care anymore knowing the fate of the team. It shouldn't be a problem with the ECHL Growlers, though there is definitely less interest in watching the ECHL over the AHL.

I'm more surprised that the NBL has done so well in the city. There was never any indication that people cared about basketball.

JHikka Nov 18, 2018 3:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 8382842)
Quite a leap but isn't this a Canadian Sports thread? It doesn't belong here any more than news about Germany's Bundesliga or India's IPL

As long as it's ratings in Canada I don't see the harm. :hmmm:

We have a thread for sports in Canadian culture which is more aimed at general conversation around sport in Canada as a whole.

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8383125)
^ I wonder if there is some hockey fatigue in St. John's with the carousel of teams that have been coming and going over the last 20 years? It's probably tough to build up much of a clientele when every few years it's a new team and a new league starting from scratch again... that type of disruption probably doesn't create the most enticing proposition for local hockey fans. If I was faced with that I'd probably opt to stay home and watch the NHL on TV instead.

I think it's less hockey fatigue and more the ECHL just being...not very great hockey, with limited local flavour. Teams that work well in NFLD are either local (QMJHL) or a decent quality (AHL). The ECHL fails at both, at least IMO. The carousel of teams doesn't exactly help either, as Marty pointed out.

blueandgoldguy Nov 19, 2018 10:13 PM

I remember the St. John's Ice Caps thread on the Winnipeg Jets forum at the HFBoards years ago. I seem to recall some of the members there stating that the AHL was more popular in St. John's then the CHL.

Acajack Nov 19, 2018 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8383146)
As long as it's ratings in Canada I don't see the harm. :hmmm:

We have a thread for sports in Canadian culture which is more aimed at general conversation around sport in Canada as a whole.



I think it's less hockey fatigue and more the ECHL just being...not very great hockey, with limited local flavour. Teams that work well in NFLD are either local (QMJHL) or a decent quality (AHL). The ECHL fails at both, at least IMO. The carousel of teams doesn't exactly help either, as Marty pointed out.

How is the calibre of the ECHL compared to the CHL (LHJMQ)?

JHikka Nov 19, 2018 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8384340)
How is the calibre of the ECHL compared to the CHL (LHJMQ)?

The Q is the weakest of the three CHL leagues but they still have a lot of players go on to play NHL as well as AHL, ECHL, CIS, and in Europe. The ECHL is mostly a deadend for most players before they go to Europe, CIS, or elsewhere. Not many make it to the NHL from there. I'd say the CHL is a higher quality and better product overall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy
I remember the St. John's Ice Caps thread on the Winnipeg Jets forum at the HFBoards years ago. I seem to recall some of the members there stating that the AHL was more popular in St. John's then the CHL.

This would make sense given that St. John's has had decades of AHL hockey and only three years of CHL hockey to compare, especially given the fact that the Fog Devils were all kinds of bad.

Acajack Nov 19, 2018 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8384344)
The Q is the weakest of the three CHL leagues but they still have a lot of players go on to play NHL as well as AHL, ECHL, CIS, and in Europe. The ECHL is mostly a deadend for most players before they go to Europe, CIS, or elsewhere. Not many make it to the NHL from there. I'd say the CHL is a higher quality and better product overall.

.

I thought so.

And the AHL would be above the CHL. Though obviously some CHL matchups likely give some AHL games a run for their money.

JHikka Nov 19, 2018 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8384347)
I thought so.

And the AHL would be above the CHL. Though obviously some CHL matchups likely give some AHL games a run for their money.

Indeed. There are have teams in the CHL and have-not teams in the CHL. I would take a top CHL game over a top AHL game but I would take a bottom AHL game over a bottom CHL game, if that makes sense.

Acajack Nov 19, 2018 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8384350)
Indeed. There are have teams in the CHL and have-not teams in the CHL. I would take a top CHL game over a top AHL game but I would take a bottom AHL game over a bottom CHL game, if that makes sense.

I think you meant a bottom AHL game, but I know what you mean.

Even though it's anathema to some (:P), you get some CFL games that are more entertaining and better executed than some NFL games.

JHikka Nov 19, 2018 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8384354)
I think you meant a bottom AHL game, but I know what you mean.

No, I meant the CHL has a higher ceiling for entertainment than the AHL, although the AHL has done better lately at having lineups that are more relevant and less comprised of goony 30-somethings. The closer the AHL gets to being a U25 league the better it'll be, IMO.

Acajack Nov 19, 2018 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8384364)
No, I meant the CHL has a higher ceiling for entertainment than the AHL, although the AHL has done better lately at having lineups that are more relevant and less comprised of goony 30-somethings. The closer the AHL gets to being a U25 league the better it'll be, IMO.

AHL players are at a more mature level of development than CHLers, but the teams are often a mix of guys wanting to break into the NHL and older ones just playing out the string.

CHL rosters aren't as seasoned but no one is there to simply play out the string.

blueandgoldguy Nov 26, 2018 9:31 PM

CFL ratings were up five percent this year, with an average of 730,000 per game. They were up 15 percent in the 18-49 demo. This includes the RDS numbers.

That increase from the 18-49 age bracket is pretty good news.

elly63 Nov 26, 2018 9:48 PM

This could come under marketing, I met Marcus "the Stro" Stroman today and he related the story below. Nice fella. That's not me in the story. :)

Searching for Stroman: Fan has special encounter with Jays pitcher on Signal Hill

JHikka Nov 26, 2018 10:31 PM

Vanier Cup averaged 293K viewers on TVA Sports according to their Twitter.

The Province are a bit bearish:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Province
As charted by Vancouver varsity football broadcaster Jim Mullin, English TV ratings for the Vanier Cup have fallen to less than one-quarter of what they were in 2011 and 2012 when the game was packaged as part of the Grey Cup Festival. TSN drew an average national audience of 665,000 for the 2011 game at B.C. Place Stadium and 502,000 for 2012 at the Rogers Centre.

It’s since sunk to a low of 168,000 last year on Sportsnet for what is now a stand-alone game.

https://theprovince.com/sports/footb...e-6ef01307b972

Physical attendance at Telus Stadium was up this year to 12,380 (from 10,754 in Hamilton last year). The Vanier Cup returns to Quebec City again next year.

--------

Richard Therrien outlines that the Canadiens garnered 458K on RDS on Friday Afternoon and 726K on TVA Sports on Saturday night, the highest on the season for the latter.

Acajack Nov 26, 2018 11:46 PM

I was actually surprised to see empty seats at Laval.

EpicPonyTime Nov 27, 2018 12:07 AM

TV ratings for the Grey Cup are in, and they're not good for the League.

Viewership was 3.1 million, down 23 per cent from last year.

This also means that season ratings over last year actually decreased 0.3%.

http://3downnation.com/2018/11/26/gr...g-23-per-cent/

elly63 Nov 27, 2018 12:51 AM

I was going to post this earlier in the week but I didn't want to give our resident CFL hater any ammunition.

Just to put the above headline into context if people don't read the article it had

Ottawa Redblacks/Hamilton Tiger-Cats 729,000
Calgary Stampeders/Winnipeg Blue Bombers 1.2 million

I have yet to see a reason why Ottawa constantly rates so low, they have a good fanbase and are an interesting, fairly exciting team to watch. The Redblacks TV ratings have been near the lowest since the get go, something is not right there.

This sets up a Grey Cup that will not likely be a great number, Ottawa and the ever present Calgary.

The problem with the CFL is that it is competing with it's own history. Other sports get those numbers and they trumpet how great it is and the double digit increases but the CFL gets it and it's a failure. I don't get it.

As I've said many times, in the NFL 6-3 is a titanic defensive struggle, in the CFL it's two crappy offenses.

elly63 Nov 27, 2018 12:55 AM

But the news is not all bad


https://i.imgur.com/rarTdBs.png


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