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-   -   Albina Vision / Rose Quarter Redevelopment (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=152548)

PDX City-State Mar 11, 2009 3:45 PM

Saw this on Burnside Blog. My feelings are the same as the author's.

http://www.portlandspaces.net/blog/t...-is-good-taste

Eagle rock Mar 11, 2009 5:25 PM

I think you guys are getting to caught up in the “entertainment district” aspect of this proposal. If the city makes cordish break up the super blocks in that area and put in some high density mixed use buildings it will be a vast improvement over the dead zone that is there now.

The Rose Quarter is on one of the most transit accessible sites in the City with the 4 MAX lines and a future street car line. If we can reintegrate this area into the city with a regular grid and high densities it could be a fantastic area.

Also one of the great things about urban space is its adaptability. If the new district is well planned, which hopefully the city will force it to be, it will be able to accommodate future uses. So even though when it opens it might be filled with tacky places in the later it could accommodate a Vegan Kids Hemp Clothing Store/Cafeteria or whatever more Portland thing you guys want.

tworivers Mar 11, 2009 6:25 PM

Quote:

What should we do to the Rose Quarter? Perhaps reintroduce the old or new street grid, try to cap I-5, build a ballpark at the PPS site, leave MC alone for future reuse, and/or publicly build a new HSR station.
Right on.

JordanL Mar 11, 2009 7:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJD (Post 4134103)
^

Don't.

We already have several funky, Portland style entertainment districts including Old Town. Making one out of thin air will age horribly, be 'anywhere-USA', and will not build on an existing environment. Nothing much has happened to the Rose Quarter since we razed the historic neighborhood there. Any mass 'entertainment district' will just be a focus on suburban/ tourist economies anyway further removing local money from local businesses.

What should we do to the Rose Quarter? Perhaps reintroduce the old or new street grid, try to cap I-5, build a ballpark at the PPS site, leave MC alone for future reuse, and/or publicly build a new HSR station. All I know is Vulcan does not have the same Portland sensibilities as Hoyt Street, Williams & Dame, Gerdling Edlin, Beam, Randy Rapaport, etc...

Well, since this isn't a communist state, the private owners of the area have decided the goal.

Also, I don't think BESC is large enough to build any kind of ballpark, even if you include the overflow lots nearby.

RoseCtyRoks Mar 11, 2009 7:42 PM

The soccer debate continues in the city council today....hopefully we'll know one way or another by the end of the day:


http://www.kgw.com/news-local/storie....10fce4a6.html

JordanL Mar 11, 2009 8:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoseCtyRoks (Post 4134663)
The soccer debate continues in the city council today....hopefully we'll know one way or another by the end of the day:


http://www.kgw.com/news-local/storie....10fce4a6.html

Looks like the MC is going away... :/

I can't see the City Commisioners just throwing this deal away...

I hope they look forward and at least design a baseball stadium that CAN be upgraded to MLB status...

tworivers Mar 11, 2009 8:16 PM

Quote:

I hope they look forward and at least design a baseball stadium that CAN be upgraded to MLB status...
Yeah, I can't quite wrap my mind around the idea of bothering to build a 9000 seat baseball stadium from scratch.

JordanL Mar 11, 2009 8:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tworivers (Post 4134727)
Yeah, I can't quite wrap my mind around the idea of bothering to build a 9000 seat baseball stadium from scratch.

$89 million is about a fourth the cost of a nice MLB stadium from scratch anyway...

zilfondel Mar 12, 2009 12:18 AM

Okay, what the city council agreed upon today was actually not an agreement with Paulson, but an outline to terms that will guide a future business deal.

Hence the title:

Quote:

Major League Soccer/Triple-A Baseball Task Force
Report and Recommendations
March 2009
They sure use the word "if" a lot in the report as to the fate of MC. And to think, just a few years ago we could have had an amazing community center/sports center in the city for almost free. What a waste...

Okstate Mar 12, 2009 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJD (Post 4134103)
^

Don't.

We already have several funky, Portland style entertainment districts including Old Town. Making one out of thin air will age horribly, be 'anywhere-USA', and will not build on an existing environment. Nothing much has happened to the Rose Quarter since we razed the historic neighborhood there. Any mass 'entertainment district' will just be a focus on suburban/ tourist economies anyway further removing local money from local businesses.

-Old town is not funky it is disgusting presently (both perception AND reality) And the answer is NO, I have no ill will towards the homeless & they do not account for 1% of my current perception of the area. I know I can't be alone on that one who is at the same time a non-suburbanite. (Yes, there are great places IN Old town...Old Town Pizza, Ping, gardens, hopefully Uwijimaya etc..)

-Name a successfully designed downtown mixed-use high density Cordish entertainment district built from scratch that has aged horribly. To me it sounds like you wish that upon it.

-"build on an existing environment"- < There IS an existing environment there???

-Who says local business will not come into play? Didn't they specify in their proposal they would gear the district towards local interests? I don't understand why almost everyone jumps on board if an apple store, H&M, Juicy Couture, Bang & Olufsen want to come into the central city....but hell no we don't want an ESPN Zone b/c that somehow competes with Le Pigeon! They literally made that last comparison on the burnside blog.

-Finally, I doubt 5% of the tourists in this city visit our existing "entertainment district-Old Town" This new district will have literally no competition amongst tourists. Locals on the other hand, yea, but competition is a GOOD thing. Contrary to the Burnside Blog, people don't go to Le Pigeon one day then say, "you know what, ESPN Zone really has what Le Pigeon is lacking, let's go there instead."

EastPDX Mar 12, 2009 12:30 AM

This ROCKS!!!
 
Go to www.oregonstadiumcampaign.com and see and read the old forums where we concluded that MLS to PDX was the next step years ago.

We are closer!

We now need MLS to award to MP (owner) the team.

AAA to the Rose Quarter is our plan from 6 years ago. So COOL when your dreams come true! Thank you Sam, Randy, and Dan.

Making the ballfield able to be expandable to MLB (9K to 40Kish) has been done in other cities so the process isn't something new!

This makes the Rose Quarter much more appealing for hotels and entertainment options! I and others have said the SMART Tower should go there also.

Joe C. just said on FM 95.5 that we should forgot about MLB to PDX (ever) and I say that we should never say never. Sorry Joe C., wrong again. But it is your job to be on the edge (right or wrong).

Congrats to Merritt and to the TA!!!!!!

Hopefully congrats to PDX for getting a second major league team.

Like I said: THIS ROCKS!!! :notacrook: :cheers:

PDX is investing in the future instead of being afraid.

Ray Whitford (Big Boomer at www.OSC.com)

NJD Mar 12, 2009 1:07 AM

^ JordanL: yep, it is entirely up to Vulcan. They have done some decent 'Pearl' rip-off work in Lake Union (Seattle, with a streetcar even!), and I'm not expecting shoddy work or something entirely devoid of Portland styles. The city council, PDC and the planning department will also have the only 'public' say in what goes on if they want major zoning changes or public investment money.

^ Okstate: I like Old Town, E. Burnside and the Stark Triangle areas, and I don't think they are disgusting (however, I think the city's forced gentrification of those areas is disgusting, Jane Jacobs would have a field day reminding the city of the importance of older, decaying central neighborhoods). The majority of such Cordish entertainment districts are still on paper, and all of them use or appear to use materials fit for suburban malls which are mishmashes of different architectural styles and themes (if you follow historical patterns these do not age well). Yep, I said they wouldn't be able to build on an existing environment; because it's not there. A sustainable economy is based on smaller businesses and keeping money local (I can argue this to no end, I have a degree in it). I have lived in several entertainment towns and cities with entertainment districts that are geared toward tourists, like Cordish projects, and the locals end up hating them and never use them (but Beavertonites will love it I'm sure, 'no grime or street people to deal with? Hurray, I'll get out of my car and fear led life for that').

Regardless, I think Vulcan will do whatever they want, and the city government will love it. Remember, the PDC put out an outline for an 'entertainment district' at the Rose Quarter a couple years back on the taxpayers dime, executive summary: http://www.pdc.us/pdf/dev_serv/pubs/...ec_summary.pdf Hopefully, the district will look more like the PDC publication than the mega malls Cordish has planned elsewhere...

Okstate Mar 12, 2009 7:55 AM

I like E. Burnside & Stark Triangle & don't think they are disgusting...I hope some local establishments will set up shop there (Rose Quarter). The Rose Quarter obviously isn't going to grow "organically" anytime soon. Why call out Beavertonites for not liking grime or street people? You could just as easily call out Pearlites, SoWa, West Hills, Irvington, Ladd Circle, Laurelhurst & really just about anyone in between that feel the same way. I'd even go so far as to say the bums themselves don't particularly like the position they're in, thus not enjoying being around their own company. Is it really that bad not wanting to always see street people? I know i know, they are ignoring the cold realities of life...but there are so many different avenues of seeing cold realities other than street people. Do all "downtown gritty urban dwellers" grab their remotes & crank the volume to hear a feed the children ad on T.V. in order to get their "fix". Just b/c a person can easily deal with streetlife doesn't mean they deserve a blue ribbon in life for being "fearless". I also don't understand why you are directly linking the car lovers with this project. Isn't this site at the epicenter for Portland transit? Wouldn't it be more accurate to then say "Hurray, I'll have somewhere worth riding transit for whilst also knowing that I don't have to step over grimey vomit & be asked for spare change"

pdxtraveler Mar 12, 2009 2:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okstate (Post 4135178)
-Old town is not funky it is disgusting presently (both perception AND reality) And the answer is NO, I have no ill will towards the homeless & they do not account for 1% of my current perception of the area. I know I can't be alone on that one who is at the same time a non-suburbanite. (Yes, there are great places IN Old town...Old Town Pizza, Ping, gardens, hopefully Uwijimaya etc..)

-Name a successfully designed downtown mixed-use high density Cordish entertainment district built from scratch that has aged horribly. To me it sounds like you wish that upon it.

-"build on an existing environment"- < There IS an existing environment there???

-Who says local business will not come into play? Didn't they specify in their proposal they would gear the district towards local interests? I don't understand why almost everyone jumps on board if an apple store, H&M, Juicy Couture, Bang & Olufsen want to come into the central city....but hell no we don't want an ESPN Zone b/c that somehow competes with Le Pigeon! They literally made that last comparison on the burnside blog.

-Finally, I doubt 5% of the tourists in this city visit our existing "entertainment district-Old Town" This new district will have literally no competition amongst tourists. Locals on the other hand, yea, but competition is a GOOD thing. Contrary to the Burnside Blog, people don't go to Le Pigeon one day then say, "you know what, ESPN Zone really has what Le Pigeon is lacking, let's go there instead."

I actually am in favor of the development in the Rose Quarter. I think it would be a great thing. BUT I totally take exception with Old Town being called "disgusting". It may be slightly gritty but full of great places and very lively at night. I actually have met many tourists in the establishments in Old Town so I would think that number is much higher than "5%". So while I do agree with you that the development in the Rose Quarter is good, I don't think we have to trash other areas that have their own merit.

NJD Mar 12, 2009 2:29 PM

meh, we'll just have to see what gets built when it does. This is not the first re-visioning of the Rose Quarter area.

...and Okstate, please understand that sarcasm and dry humor do not work as well on an online forum as it does in person. my apologies if I insinuated anything with my generalizations.

Okstate Mar 12, 2009 7:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdxtraveler (Post 4135984)
I actually have met many tourists in the establishments in Old Town so I would think that number is much higher than "5%". So while I do agree with you that the development in the Rose Quarter is good, I don't think we have to trash other areas that have their own merit.

-I do understand Old Town has its niche market & think it is great for what it is. Just not my cup of tea. However, that being said there are a couple great places IN Old Town that I really like. I agree I shouldn't have trashed on it. Point taken.

-As for the tourists, I just can't imagine a large % outside of the 21-30 crowd flocking to Old Town. I think the entertainment district will be much more open to all ages. Of course this is just my perception.

Okstate Mar 12, 2009 8:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJD (Post 4136004)

...and Okstate, please understand that sarcasm and dry humor do not work as well on an online forum as it does in person. my apologies if I insinuated anything with my generalizations.

I actually am glad I got to open up without someone going hay-wire on me (which has been done in the past) It's nice to be so confident in yourself that you can take & leave what people say. I did mentally take away a couple things you said to me. Being able to discuss high heated material can actually be a lot of fun so as someone doesn't go crying home to momma. No apologies needed :tup:

pylon Mar 12, 2009 8:43 PM

Here's what happened when Cordish worked their formula in Rochester, NY; downtown, on a site along the Genesee River ("water is magic")...

Before...
http://www.ci.rochester.ny.us/mayor/...m?Release=1036

After...
http://www.articlearchives.com/trave...1599558-1.html

City Newspaper (their Wammy Week) explains...
http://www.rochestercitynewspaper.co...tching-a-buzz/

nobody Mar 13, 2009 8:04 AM

Referencing Rochester's downtown to basically anywhere in Portland is fairly pointless. As a former resident of Rochester I can assure you that even opening a free money factory downtown probably wouldn't get people there.

zilfondel Mar 13, 2009 9:53 AM

From Oregonlive:

This is excerpted from part of the article. Very interesting - for those of you who think that MC demolition is a done deal, well, its not. Read on...

Quote:

Blazers not on board

Another opponent of the plan was the Portland Trail Blazers. J.E. Isaac, the team's senior vice president for business affairs, said the proposal to build a new baseball park next to the Rose Garden threatens the future of the Blazers' business.

The Blazers are in talks with the city to build an entertainment district in the Rose Quarter that could include clubs, restaurants, bars and a music venue. The team hopes to make the area attractive even when there is not a basketball game.

Leonard and Adams said they were surprised by Isaac's statements. They said Blazers officials had shown them drawings that included the baseball park and the entertainment district. Isaac said those plans would require the city to tear down a parking garage or the Blazers to tear down their office building.


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