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-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

FrankieFlowerpot May 21, 2018 1:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 8194452)
I had to Google who Manziel was. I'm a big football fan but had never heard of him.

Yeah ..... ok :haha:

khabibulin May 21, 2018 2:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8194112)
I understand he has spoken to Doug Flutie and if he takes his advice Johnny Football's future will have a happy ending. Coach Jones previously was effusive with his praise so he's likely going to get a shot when he's deemed to be ready.

You can take the boy out of the party, but I have my doubts if you can ever take the party out of the boy.

Acajack May 21, 2018 2:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8194162)
My main question for the CFL folks would be: What's the best outcome for the Manziel experiment in Hamilton?

How does the CFL look if he's able to step onto a team on Day 1 and completely dominate? If he doesn't do well and crashes out, does that say anything about the quality of the league? I'm assuming there needs to be some balance between the CFL being a good league and Manziel doing well in his own right. It wouldn't look good to fresh American eyes if he was able to step in and throw 4 TDs a game and make the league look weak by comparison, at least IMO. I'm guessing the CFL needs to balance providing a good environment for Manziel to do well in while also proving that it's a strong league comparatively to the NFL. Curious what the best case scenario is here from an exposure standpoint.

It seems like there are a lot of people here who are unfamiliar with the world of sports beyond North America and how the differences in level of play between so-called "unbalanced" leagues can sometimes be surprisingly small.

For example, most European countries I am familiar with have a national soccer "cup" tournament every year. (In the UK this is the FA Cup.) This sometimes includes local amateur teams all the way up to the top first division clubs. I am oversimplifying here but basically all the teams get thrown together in a huge tournament (there is some seeding of higher division teams, generally) but the first division teams always end up playing lower division clubs. Often much, much lower.

And guess what happens? Yes, there are blowouts sometimes, but most of the time the lower division clubs can more or less hold their own. It's true that they rarely win against the top clubs but the scores are often 3-1, 4-2, 2-0. And sometimes there are upsets.

When I first became aware of this system it really put into a different perspective the whole debate about the CFL sucking so badly (allegedly) relative to the NFL.

JHikka May 21, 2018 3:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8194499)
For example, most European countries I am familiar with have a national soccer "cup" tournament every year. (In the UK this is the FA Cup.) This sometimes includes local amateur teams all the way up to the top first division clubs. I am oversimplifying here but basically all the teams get thrown together in a huge tournament (there is some seeding of higher division teams, generally) but the first division teams always end up playing lower division clubs. Often much, much lower.

And guess what happens? Yes, there are blowouts sometimes, but most of the time the lower division clubs can more or less hold their own. It's true that they rarely win against the top clubs but the scores are often 3-1, 4-2, 2-0. And sometimes there are upsets.

Most North Americans are completely unfamiliar with this concept, I agree, although this format does exist in American soccer (US Open Cup) and to a lesser extent in Canada (Canadian Championship).

It's also true that many top teams do not field full-strength squads in these Cup matches and oftentimes show disinterest in these sorts of competitions. It is a frequent talking point. Furthermore, it can be said that top clubs have little to gain from such ventures.

My question wasn't regarding direct competition between CFL teams and NFL teams; my question was aimed at how Americans view and perceive the CFL and how best the CFL can gain reputation from Manziel playing in the league. Unfortunately the topic shifted towards what American players have potentially dominated the CFL in the past instead of how best the CFL could potentially market and materialize exposure with prominent Americans coming North. Again, what's the best case scenario going forward?

I use the term prominent loosely with Manziel, as he is known more for his off-field antics than on-field play.

Acajack May 21, 2018 3:22 AM

This is quite interesting.

https://www.cfl.ca/2013/10/22/heisma...inners-debuts/

There are also a number of near-Heisman winners who played in the CFL.

For example, Turner Gill who played for the Montreal Concordes.

Acajack May 21, 2018 3:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8194514)
Most North Americans are completely unfamiliar with this concept, I agree, although this format does exist in American soccer (US Open Cup) and to a lesser extent in Canada (Canadian Championship).

It's also true that many top teams do not field full-strength squads in these Cup matches and oftentimes show disinterest in these sorts of competitions. It is a frequent talking point. Furthermore, it can be said that top clubs have little to gain from such ventures.

My question wasn't regarding direct competition between CFL teams and NFL teams; my question was aimed at how Americans view and perceive the CFL and how best the CFL can gain reputation from Manziel playing in the league. Unfortunately the topic shifted towards what American players have potentially dominated the CFL in the past instead of how best the CFL could potentially market and materialize exposure with prominent Americans coming North. Again, what's the best case scenario going forward?

I use the term prominent loosely with Manziel, as he is known more for his off-field antics than on-field play.

Well he did win the Heisman. But it's true he's done just about zilch in the NFL.

Acajack May 21, 2018 3:38 AM

Another thing I wonder is how many people here have ever been on a playing surface (in any sport) competing with professional or borderline professional athletes.

I have. Well, "competing" is probably too strong a term. When I was in my 20s a bunch of buddies of mine used to rent ice time at midnight and we used to play shinny just for fun. One of the regulars was a guy we knew who attended two NHL training camps but was always one of the first cuts. A couple of times he invited some buddies of his who actually played a bit in the NHL. One of them didn't even play 10 games, but another took part in a couple hundred games in the NHL during his career. We also had a girl who played for Canada's women's team play with us too.

Anyway in the case of all them even though there weren't any superstars among them (very borderline professional calibre generally) they were just so far ahead of us stiffs it wasn't even funny. (I never was a very good hockey player BTW. Not even close. But some of my friends were quite good, but even with their skateguards on I betcha these people could have skated circles around my buddies.)

They may not have been regular NHLers (much less top-flight players) but they were still a million times closer to Wayne Gretzky's calibre of play, than we were to theirs.

elly63 May 21, 2018 4:30 AM

All-American CFL QB busts
BILL LANKHOF, QMI Agency June 28, 2010

In a perfect world, Andre Ware could’ve been a Doug Flutie clone; T.J. Rubley would’ve been Anthony Calvillo before anyone this side of Utah State knew there was an Anthony Calvillo, and Jason Gesser should’ve been a household name today beyond his own living-room walls.

Woulda.

Coulda.

Shoulda.

They are the all-American kids and along with such luminous college football icons as Eric Crouch, Akili Smith, Don McPherson, Tommie Frazier, Tony Rice and Major Harris, there was every indication that they were perfectly suited to conquer the Canadian Football League.

The scouting reports said they had it all — strong of arm and will, quick or fast or both. They should’ve been able to capture a country’s football ideals.

Instead, they flashed through our universe like a phoenix that could not raise itself beyond mediocrity in a game they often never grew to understand.

. . .

Xelebes May 21, 2018 5:15 AM

Don't post full articles. Just quote the salient points or only post the first couple paragraphs.

logan5 May 21, 2018 5:17 AM

Great article. Worth posting the whole thing.

Acajack May 21, 2018 11:06 AM

Jeff Garcia the Grey Cup champ with Calgary was the exact same guy who was the 49ers starter a year later and led them to winning seasons and the playoffs and made the Pro Bowl for several seasons.

He did not go from being sucky in Calgary to being great in SF overnight.

elly63 May 21, 2018 1:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xelebes (Post 8194595)
Don't post full articles. Just quote the salient points or only post the first couple paragraphs.

When you can get people to use the quote function properly and only quote the line they are referring to instead of a page long post or edit out the picture so we don't see the same picture five times on the page I might consider your proposal. Until then, uhh no.

News links often disappear and along with that the story, and people here can get a little revisionist in their thinking without a little reminder on site.

elly63 May 21, 2018 1:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8194677)
Jeff Garcia the Grey Cup champ with Calgary was the exact same guy who was the 49ers starter a year later and led them to winning seasons and the playoffs and made the Pro Bowl for several seasons.

He did not go from being sucky in Calgary to being great in SF overnight.

That's a good point, there's a million reasons why a player makes a team and it's not always talent. In Garcia's case it was talent.

I read a quote somewhere from an NFL coach who said the last 13 cuts were interchangeable with the 13 guys who made the team. As I said above, maybe the guy who made it was because of an injury at that position, or a holdout, or just being temporarily weak at that position.

I can remember we had a soccer player on our NT who ended playing for the most high profile club team (at that time). He was generally acknowledged to be one of the poorer players on the NT so a team's needs and timing may be a big factor in a player being signed over exceptional talent.

Being at the right place at the right time and being ready to grab the opportunity are vital factors. There was no way Brett Jones of the NY Giants fit the NFL mold but he got an opportunity and refused to let go. He is now probably their best O-lineman and the only guy who doesn't have to take playbook tests because of his had work and intelligence.

elly63 May 21, 2018 2:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8194514)
My question wasn't regarding direct competition between CFL teams and NFL teams; my question was aimed at how Americans view and perceive the CFL and how best the CFL can gain reputation from Manziel playing in the league. Unfortunately the topic shifted towards what American players have potentially dominated the CFL in the past instead of how best the CFL could potentially market and materialize exposure with prominent Americans coming North. Again, what's the best case scenario going forward?

Because of the availability of games, on various ESPN channels, and other platforms for streaming the CFL in the US, there has been a growing audience for people who want to see players that they followed in college.

As Bob McCown once said it's hard to get invested in something without a "rooting interest". So if I'm living in Tuscaloosa, Alabama and a guy I knew a year ahead of me, I hear is now playing pro football for the Calgary Stampeders, I might be inclined to tune in and see what he is up to.

Family is now able to follow where their son, brother, grandson plays. And the large number of Americans are true football fans, they love all levels from high school to NFL.

GlassCity May 21, 2018 3:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8194532)
Another thing I wonder is how many people here have ever been on a playing surface (in any sport) competing with professional or borderline professional athletes.

I have. Well, "competing" is probably too strong a term. When I was in my 20s a bunch of buddies of mine used to rent ice time at midnight and we used to play shinny just for fun. One of the regulars was a guy we knew who attended two NHL training camps but was always one of the first cuts. A couple of times he invited some buddies of his who actually played a bit in the NHL. One of them didn't even play 10 games, but another took part in a couple hundred games in the NHL during his career. We also had a girl who played for Canada's women's team play with us too.

Anyway in the case of all them even though there weren't any superstars among them (very borderline professional calibre generally) they were just so far ahead of us stiffs it wasn't even funny. (I never was a very good hockey player BTW. Not even close. But some of my friends were quite good, but even with their skateguards on I betcha these people could have skated circles around my buddies.)

They may not have been regular NHLers (much less top-flight players) but they were still a million times closer to Wayne Gretzky's calibre of play, than we were to theirs.

I managed to go far enough in rugby to play a bunch of games against guys that are now playing on the Canadian or American national teams, and I was always surprised at how manageable this was.

Even in places with much more established (pro) rugby cultures like Australia/New Zealand and the UK/France, it's not uncommon for pro players to occasionally lace up for their community clubs for the occasional game. Even in Canada, it's fairly common to see former/current national team players on the other team at the club level, and while they definitely make their presence felt they don't generally turn a game on its head. I think with a sport of 15 players per side, it's pretty hard for one guy to have the same impact.

Xelebes May 21, 2018 5:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8194700)
When you can get people to use the quote function properly and only quote the line they are referring to instead of a page long post or edit out the picture so we don't see the same picture five times on the page I might consider your proposal. Until then, uhh no.

News links often disappear and along with that the story, and people here can get a little revisionist in their thinking without a little reminder on site.

This is for legal purposes though. We have to respect copyright.

elly63 May 21, 2018 6:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xelebes (Post 8194932)
This is for legal purposes though. We have to respect copyright.

I respect that, every article I post has author/publication/date and website link.

I have a question, why aren't the moderators for each form listed and if they are where are they? I don't know about you but "Sawmill Billowtoker" doesn't scream moderator to me. Another member seemed to be playing word games as to whether they were a mod or not. Why the secrecy, where do we find out who the mods are because it's not very transparent if they can manipulate situations to their own ends.

BTW I doubt if your editing of my post has brought you into any more compliance with the law than it already was or wasn't.

logan5 May 21, 2018 7:19 PM

The internet is so ubiquitous now that posting an article on line is practically the same as stapling your article to a telephone pole out on the street. If the publisher doesn't want their content shared for free than they put up a pay wall.

jonny24 May 22, 2018 5:24 PM

I'm a Hamilton season ticket holder... at this point I don't particularly care, he's on the team so I hope he plays well for us.

I was firmly of the opinion that we shouldn't sell the farm to get him, or give him any special treatment. And absolutely not bring him in over Masoli who has earned his spot. It seems the team has not done either, so good for them. We need a good backup.

I still think coach Jones should have used Collaros last fall. He got shafted I think, and will show us up playing for the Riders. But of course, it could be that the change of scenery was needed. We'll never know :shrug:

HomeInMyShoes May 22, 2018 6:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8194991)
I respect that, every article I post has author/publication/date and website link.

I have a question, why aren't the moderators for each form listed and if they are where are they? I don't know about you but "Sawmill Billowtoker" doesn't scream moderator to me. Another member seemed to be playing word games as to whether they were a mod or not. Why the secrecy, where do we find out who the mods are because it's not very transparent if they can manipulate situations to their own ends.

BTW I doubt if your editing of my post has brought you into any more compliance with the law than it already was or wasn't.

Moderators names show up in purple, but I agree they should be indicated better, not everyone discerns the blue spectrum well.


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