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-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

Acajack Oct 6, 2022 6:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9753449)




The NCAA does seem to be an increasingly common developmental route for NHL players... not that the NCAA schools are pumping out tons of blue-chip prospects, but there are a good number of young players who are eschewing the CHL to take the NCAA scholarship route instead. They will typically play a year or two of junior A or high school, then move into the NCAA at 18 (the Cale Makar, Jonathan Toews, etc. route).

I'm not an expert on why players make certain decisions to go one way or the other, but the CHL does come with paid postsec education as well. Basically you get one year university paid for every year of CHL hockey you play. So a lot of U Sports players are former CHL players who continue to play competitive hockey into their 20s even though they are no longer on a path to the AHL/NHL. U Sports players who actually make it to the NHL are pretty exceptional to my knowledge.

Yes, the NCAA is a growing source of NHLers. It may even take over as the number one source one day - but it's not even close to the CHL yet.

JHikka Oct 6, 2022 7:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9753432)
I don't think there is any comparison in the number of CHLers making it to the NHL every year, compared to the number of NCAAers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack
Yes, the NCAA is a growing source of NHLers. It may even take over as the number one source one day - but it's not even close to the CHL yet.

The NCAA has been slowly catching up over the past decade or so. More NCAA grads and fewer CHL grads on NHL rosters these days. It'll pass the CHL eventually. Caufield, Makar, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire
Considering that hockey is still the number one pro sport in every Canadian city with a NHL team, I'd say that hockey is still pretty relevant.

The NHL might be relevant but i'm not convinced hockey as a whole is maintaining that relevancy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire
Even in the old days junior hockey and minor pro was a fairly marginal enterprise in the largest cities, so it's not like things have changed dramatically. The CHL in places like Toronto is roughly where I would expect them to be. I guess at one point the junior team was "downtown" when the Marlboroughs were at MLG, but would it really make a difference if the Steelheads played at Coca-Cola Coliseum and drew the same few thousand people a game? I'd imagine that they would still be roughly of the same level of prominence.

It's something we'll never really have an answer to. Fact is these teams can't survive in our major urban centres, either due to the sport not being relevant, teams unable to make ends meet, pressure from professional sides drawing the attention away, or a combination of all of these factors.

The question that will eventually need to be answered for the CHL is how large does a city have to be and how much competition does there have to be for CHL teams to begin suffering and struggling? If they're strong in mid-sized markets how big can those markets get before those side-effects begin to be seen? Again, Halifax will be a good indicator, as will places like Langley and eventually KWC. We already know how they fair in the far-out suburbs of the major centres that they no longer have presence in.

esquire Oct 6, 2022 7:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9753523)
It's something we'll never really have an answer to. Fact is these teams can't survive in our major urban centres, either due to the sport not being relevant, teams unable to make ends meet, pressure from professional sides drawing the attention away, or a combination of all of these factors.

I think without question in the larger markets it's the pro clubs drawing attention away. Instead of going to see the junior team in person (whether it's in or near downtown like in Calgary and Edmonton or in the suburbs like Toronto and Vancouver), most people just watch the pro team on TV. Some wiht the means and inclination will buy tickets. But it's pretty clear that the pros take up most of the air in the room.

Junior hockey, much like NCAA hockey, does best when it is the biggest game in town. Sure there is the odd place that can attract a good crowd even with a pro team in town, but by and large it's the smaller markets that embrace them the most. It makes sense for the junior teams to have a foothold in the large pro markets, but I don't think anyone seriously expects the junior team to take on a dominant role and start drawing 15,000 fans a night or what have you.

Anyway, if hockey isn't relevant (or is of diminishing relevancy) in Canada, between all the major pro teams, all the minor pro teams, all the junior teams, all the amateur players and leagues... then what sport would you actually consider to be relevant?

JHikka Oct 6, 2022 8:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9753537)
Junior hockey, much like NCAA hockey, does best when it is the biggest game in town. Sure there is the odd place that can attract a good crowd even with a pro team in town, but by and large it's the smaller markets that embrace them the most. It makes sense for the junior teams to have a foothold in the large pro markets, but I don't think anyone seriously expects the junior team to take on a dominant role and start drawing 15,000 fans a night or what have you.

Just merely having that presence would do a world of difference for the sport and those participating and being exposed to it. I don't think anyone is expecting the Steelheads to move to the ACC and draw 10K+ a night, but I think it says a lot that MLSE has shown no interest in owning any sort of junior team and seem happy enough with just the Marlies at the Coliseum. In fact, any NHL effort to buy-in to the CHL seems exclusively just as an exercise to fill dates at arenas. Which, again, is fine, but I wonder how those teams would fair with independent ownership.

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9753537)
Anyway, if hockey isn't relevant (or is of diminishing relevancy) in Canada, between all the major pro teams, all the minor pro teams, all the junior teams, all the amateur players and leagues... then what sport would you actually consider to be relevant?

I guess I need to restate what i've suggested. The CHL has no relevancy in Canada's major centres and has been relegated to its suburbs and smaller centres exclusively. This is partly due to HC's negligence and partly down to the sport just naturally becoming more appealing to suburbanites in general as the inner-city lower classes are priced out of both playing hockey and attending games.

NHL teams still do well but i'm not convinced that that support is as directly supportive of hockey as much as it is supportive of the brands of those teams or league. There's no real way to really gauge this and others are free to question this as much as they like, but I think you'll find more actual 'hockey fans' at CHL games than at NHL games, particularly those in the larger centres like Toronto. It's more NHL the Product rather than Hockey the Sport, if that makes sense. This is mostly conjecture on my behalf but it explains the wide gap between Canadians coming out for NHL hockey but not for CHL, women's, or any other various kinds at different levels. This works out fine for the NHL (money is money) but does a lot of damage to the sport at the grassroots level.

When I talk about the relevancy of a sport in a market i'm mostly referring to sports as they pertain to themselves. That is to say, are the Leafs more or less relevant today in Toronto than they were in 1992? How about in specific areas like Downtown? Oshawa? Markham? If a market is a pie chart calculated to 100 what would the Leafs have taken up thirty years ago as opposed to today? (This sort of conversation is especially relevant to the Argos, whose popularity diminished with the introduce of more and more professional sports teams to Toronto over the decades). For the CHL, they're less relevant in these markets today than ever before simply by virtue of not having any presence in these markets (an argument over whether or not Langley qualifies as Vancouver or Mississauga as Toronto), offset in part by continued relevance in growing mid-sized markets.

I'm not saying that hockey is no longer relevant in Canada - far from the truth as evidenced by just about anything - but if we're trying to trend these sorts of things out and gauge interest in various bodies then I think it's obvious that hockey is losing ground to sports that are quickly catching up to it in the general cachet of Canadian sports interest. Hockey in Canada is losing ground to hockey in the US and with other sports in Canada, so it remains to be seen how much it can, or will, be squeezed in the coming years.

I think the best indicator of the difference in mindset between the NCAA and the CHL is in their national championships - where the NCAA has been holding its Frozen Four events at NHL arenas since the mid-1990s, whereas the CHL has stuck with smaller arenas in smaller markets. If the CHL were perhaps a little daring and willing to take a risk then they could expand their tournament and move it into an NHL arena for a week or so, contained to whatever league is hosting it on that cycle. An eight-team knockout Memorial Cup at the Bell Centre sounds more appealing than their round-robin and knockout formula in Blainville, IMO. It's a change like that that can get the CHL back into major cities and back into more relevancy in the mainstream outside of their mid-sized and small markets. As the Frozen Four travels to Tampa Bay and Las Vegas in the coming years the Memorial Cup will surely be off to Kamloops, Sudbury, and Rimouski...

Acajack Oct 6, 2022 8:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9753592)

I think the best indicator of the difference in mindset between the NCAA and the CHL is in their national championships - where the NCAA has been holding its Frozen Four events at NHL arenas since the mid-1990s, whereas the CHL has stuck with smaller arenas in smaller markets. If the CHL were perhaps a little daring and willing to take a risk then they could expand their tournament and move it into an NHL arena for a week or so, contained to whatever league is hosting it on that cycle. An eight-team knockout Memorial Cup at the Bell Centre sounds more appealing than their round-robin and knockout formula in Blainville, IMO. It's a change like that that can get the CHL back into major cities and back into more relevancy in the mainstream outside of their mid-sized and small markets. As the Frozen Four travels to Tampa Bay and Las Vegas in the coming years the Memorial Cup will surely be off to Kamloops, Sudbury, and Rimouski...

I think this is a good suggestion, but the CHL has held the Memorial Cup in NHL arenas in the past, has it not?

Maybe it's been a while, though.

JHikka Oct 6, 2022 8:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9753624)
I think this is a good suggestion, but the CHL has held the Memorial Cup in NHL arenas in the past, has it not?

Maybe it's been a while, though.

Only arenas which are or were formerly NHL - Civic Coliseum in Ottawa, Colisee in Quebec City, Pacific Coliseum in Vancouver. Seattle hosted in 1992 in what would eventually become an NHL arena with heavy renovation. :P

thurmas Oct 6, 2022 9:22 PM

What a suprise NFL games placed on CTV rather than just TSN give a huge ratings boost to NFL games in Canada too bad Bell doesn't do this with their own property the CFL cough cough.

https://3downnation.com/2022/10/06/b...f-2022-season/

Week 4 NFL primetime games held steady as Thursday Night Football featuring the Miami Dolphins and Cincinnati Bengals on TSN and CTV2 averaged 803,100 viewers. Sunday Night Football with Patrick Mahomes and his Kansas City Chiefs against Tom Brady and his Tampa Bay Buccaneers averaged 677,000 viewers on TSN and CTV2. Monday Night Football between the defending Super Bowl champion Los Angeles Rams versus the San Francisco 49ers on TSN checked in at 549,100.

These three standalone games averaged audiences of 676,400.

2022 Week 17 TV ratings:

Friday
Saskatchewan at Winnipeg — 701,800
Ottawa at BC — 425,200

Saturday
Montreal at Edmonton — 233,400
Toronto at Calgary — 298,400

Total Week 17 average: 414,700


(These numbers do not include viewership from RDS, TSN’s French-language affiliate, which has averaged approximately 200,000 viewers for Alouettes games in 2022.)

JHikka Oct 6, 2022 9:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9753687)
What a suprise NFL games placed on CTV rather than just TSN give a huge ratings boost to NFL games in Canada too bad Bell doesn't do this with their own property the CFL cough cough.

NFL on CTV -> advertising revenue purposes
CFL on TSN -> subscriber revenue purposes

They're divided on purpose to drive separate revenue streams. Mixing them doesn't really benefit TSN as the CFL wouldn't garner higher advertising prices on CTV and NFL wouldn't boost subscribers on TSN (due mostly to lack of exclusivity).

VANRIDERFAN Oct 6, 2022 9:58 PM

I sometimes wonder having one or two teams as part of US dominated leagues (including NHL) has hurt Canadian domestic leagues development and acceptance by a wider domestic audience. And as a result there are less positions for Canadians to play professional in their country.
Will the idea of having one or two Canadian teams in the US dominated woman’s professional soccer league help or hinder the establishment of a Canadian domestic woman’s professional soccer league.

Djeffery Oct 6, 2022 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9753348)

I haven't eyed many NCAA rinks in the US but my gut is telling me that not many play in NHL-size arenas like Quebec does. I think only Ohio State has a big arena and it's also in a shared-NHL market. :hmmm: :P

Don't forget ASU will play in an NHL arena this year lol.

manny_santos Oct 6, 2022 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9753256)
Pacific Coliseum (16,281)
2008-2009: 8,470
2009-2010: 7,117
2010-2011: 7,450
2011-2012: 6,944
2012-2013: 7,205
2013-2014: 6,266
2014-2015: 5,815
2015-2016: 5,169

Langley Events Centre (5,276)
2016-2017: 3,848
2017-2018: 3,383
2018-2019: 3,826
2019-2020: 3,920
2021-2022: 2,843
2022-2023: 3,166

Worth pointing out that the Canucks purchased the NLL Vancouver Warriors in 2018, moving them from Langley to Rogers Arena shortly after the Giants moved in the opposite direction. The CPL will be starting up in Langley in the spring.

I’m used to the attendance numbers the London Knights get. These numbers are even lower than I predicted.

thurmas Oct 6, 2022 11:48 PM

With all that's happened i am not sure the world juniors tournament will recover from this i don't think it will ever be like it was in the 2000s selling out like gangbusters probably best it went back to Europe for a few years and northern u.s states

JHikka Oct 6, 2022 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9753861)
With all that's happened i am not sure the world juniors tournament will recover from this i don't think it will ever be like it was in the 2000s selling out like gangbusters probably best it went back to Europe for a few years and northern u.s states

The rumour is that the 2025/2026 World Juniors U20s will be in Las Vegas. Next year it's in Gothenburg.

thurmas Oct 6, 2022 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9753865)
The rumour is that the 2025/2026 World Juniors U20s will be in Las Vegas. Next year it's in Gothenburg.

Tons of snowbirds in Vegas would do well there

esquire Oct 7, 2022 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9753871)
Tons of snowbirds in Vegas would do well there

Same reason why so many curling events are held there. Seems to me that USA Hockey tends to pick WJHC locations that are extremely convenient to Canadian fans, e.g. Buffalo, Grand Forks, now Vegas.

Djeffery Oct 7, 2022 12:28 AM

Vegas for Christmas and New Years? Sign me up.

thurmas Oct 7, 2022 12:33 AM

I would say Vegas is # 1 vacation destination for most people from Alberta Saskatchewan and Manitoba every year at work thats where tons of my colleagues go for vacation same at the gym or when I go to bombers games ect...

esquire Oct 7, 2022 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9753592)
I guess I need to restate what i've suggested. The CHL has no relevancy in Canada's major centres and has been relegated to its suburbs and smaller centres exclusively. This is partly due to HC's negligence and partly down to the sport just naturally becoming more appealing to suburbanites in general as the inner-city lower classes are priced out of both playing hockey and attending games.

NHL teams still do well but i'm not convinced that that support is as directly supportive of hockey as much as it is supportive of the brands of those teams or league. There's no real way to really gauge this and others are free to question this as much as they like, but I think you'll find more actual 'hockey fans' at CHL games than at NHL games, particularly those in the larger centres like Toronto. It's more NHL the Product rather than Hockey the Sport, if that makes sense. This is mostly conjecture on my behalf but it explains the wide gap between Canadians coming out for NHL hockey but not for CHL, women's, or any other various kinds at different levels. This works out fine for the NHL (money is money) but does a lot of damage to the sport at the grassroots level.

When I talk about the relevancy of a sport in a market i'm mostly referring to sports as they pertain to themselves. That is to say, are the Leafs more or less relevant today in Toronto than they were in 1992? How about in specific areas like Downtown? Oshawa? Markham? If a market is a pie chart calculated to 100 what would the Leafs have taken up thirty years ago as opposed to today? (This sort of conversation is especially relevant to the Argos, whose popularity diminished with the introduce of more and more professional sports teams to Toronto over the decades). For the CHL, they're less relevant in these markets today than ever before simply by virtue of not having any presence in these markets (an argument over whether or not Langley qualifies as Vancouver or Mississauga as Toronto), offset in part by continued relevance in growing mid-sized markets.

I'm not saying that hockey is no longer relevant in Canada - far from the truth as evidenced by just about anything - but if we're trying to trend these sorts of things out and gauge interest in various bodies then I think it's obvious that hockey is losing ground to sports that are quickly catching up to it in the general cachet of Canadian sports interest. Hockey in Canada is losing ground to hockey in the US and with other sports in Canada, so it remains to be seen how much it can, or will, be squeezed in the coming years.

I think the best indicator of the difference in mindset between the NCAA and the CHL is in their national championships - where the NCAA has been holding its Frozen Four events at NHL arenas since the mid-1990s, whereas the CHL has stuck with smaller arenas in smaller markets. If the CHL were perhaps a little daring and willing to take a risk then they could expand their tournament and move it into an NHL arena for a week or so, contained to whatever league is hosting it on that cycle. An eight-team knockout Memorial Cup at the Bell Centre sounds more appealing than their round-robin and knockout formula in Blainville, IMO. It's a change like that that can get the CHL back into major cities and back into more relevancy in the mainstream outside of their mid-sized and small markets. As the Frozen Four travels to Tampa Bay and Las Vegas in the coming years the Memorial Cup will surely be off to Kamloops, Sudbury, and Rimouski...

I'm sure the CHL team owners would love to have the Memorial Cup be on the same level as the WJHC with sold out crowds and steep ticket prices in big arenas. But it hasn't worked out that way. However, from my perspective as a fan, though, I will say that the fact that the Memorial Cup is held in places like Brandon is a feature, not a bug. I miss the days when the WJHC was held in smaller locales... what have we really gotten from big-budget WJHCs played in Toronto and Edmonton pulling in piles of money? More money for Hockey Canada slush funds to buy the silence of abuse victims? Some more diamonds in the championship rings of board members? I'm being facetious, but I'm not sure that the game has really benefitted in a visible way from all that extra money.

At the end of the day the CHL is a developmental league, not unlike minor league baseball. It does best in smaller markets, the Peterboroughs and Prince Georges of the world. Places like downtown Toronto have the Leafs and other flashy teams, and I don't see junior hockey really competing with that. Even in the old days junior hockey wasn't especially well supported in large markets with pro teams. It was always kind of a revolving door of junior teams playing in front of sparse crowds in those places. Maybe if Hockey Canada had some sort of stroke of marketing genius they might have figured out how to sell it as a premium product and draw big crowds. But even though they didn't, it's still clearly a viable product that caters to a bit of a niche audience in smaller places.

esquire Oct 7, 2022 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9753909)
I would say Vegas is # 1 vacation destination for most people from Alberta Saskatchewan and Manitoba every year at work thats where tons of my colleagues go for vacation same at the gym or when I go to bombers games ect...

Easily accessible by air from just about any Canadian city of a certain size too.

thurmas Oct 7, 2022 10:29 PM

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canad...600ae165a683a9

‘Shame to the sport’: IIHF urged to suspend Hockey Canada


The International Ice Hockey Federation has been asked to suspend Hockey Canada as uproar grows over the national sport body’s handling of sexual abuse allegations.

In a letter dated Oct. 5, the North American division of the World Association of Ice Hockey Players Union (WAIPU), said Hockey Canada is in breach of IIHF bylaws, calling for the international federation to take immediate action.

“Considering the alarming events that have come to light globally since May 3, 2022, not limited to numerous sexual assaults over decades and the alleged misappropriation of funds from the Canadian trust funds, it is imperative that the IIHF take action,” Sandra Slater, president of WAIPU North America, said in the letter shared with Global News Friday.

WAIPU also pressed that a new National Sport Organization (NSO) application be received from Canada.

“We call now for the IIHF to take action according to the IIHF bylaws. Hockey Canada has brought shame to the sport of hockey not only in Canada but globally.”

Hockey Canada has been under intense scrutiny since this spring over its mishandling of alleged sexual assaults by players, including two alleged incidents from 2003 and 2018.

The disgraced national body has seen sponsors jump ship and three provincial organizations publicly speak out this week alone.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau even floated the idea of creating a new governing body for the sport.

The organization initially came under fire in May when it was revealed an undisclosed settlement had been paid to a woman who alleged in a $3.55-million lawsuit that she was sexually assaulted by eight players — including members of the country's world junior team — after a 2018 gala in London, Ont.

The allegations have not been proven in court.

The federal government froze its funding in the immediate aftermath, while a number of sponsors followed suit.

In recent days, Telus, Tim Hortons, Canadian Tire, Sobeys, Scotiabank and Esso have all cut ties with Hockey Canada for the upcoming 2022-23 season.

Halifax Mayor Mike Savage and Moncton Mayor Dawn Arnold said they're "deeply concerned about Hockey Canada's lack of judgement and professionalism," in a joint statement released Friday.

The mayors say they are looking for "meaningful change" within the organization before the world junior championships take place in their cities.

"As mayors we have discussed our growing concerns as the Hockey Canada situation has unfolded and we believe accountability is paramount," the statement said, noting further discussions will take place with council colleagues and provincial hosting partners.

Hockey Alberta announced in a statement Friday morning that it won’t withhold funding from the national body, however, senior manager of communications Brad Lyon said it isn’t completely out of the question.

New Brunswick Premier Blaine Higgs said cutting ties with the world junior hockey event is also not off the table and that he's "fully aligned" with Nova Scotia's decision to monitor Hockey Canada's response to the controversy before hosting the tournament.

Hockey Canada's summer of ugly headlines continued with the revelation of a fund partly maintained by minor hockey registration fees to pay for uninsured liabilities, including sexual assault and abuse claims. Halifax police were also asked to investigate an alleged sexual assault by members of the 2003 junior men's team.

Hockey Canada officials testified on Parliament Hill in July that the organization had paid out $7.6 million in nine settlements related to sexual assault and abuse claims since 1989. That figure didn't include this year's payout to the London plaintiff.

Hockey Canada responded by releasing an action plan to address safe sport issues and has appointed former Supreme Court justice Thomas Cromwell to conduct a governance review.

In a heated committee meeting on Tuesday, MPs pressed Hockey Canada officials for answers on the organization’s handling of sexual assault.

Former chair Michael Brind’Amour, who resigned in August, and his successor, interim chair Andrea Skinner, were questioned while appearing before the standing committee on Canadian heritage in Ottawa.

They both defended the national sport body’s handling of sexual abuse allegations dating back to 2018, saying appropriate steps were taken despite widespread criticism.

-- with files from The Canadian Press.

thurmas Oct 10, 2022 12:42 AM

Roger Goodell hinted in his London press conference today that London could host not one but 2 NFL teams and that if it were to happen it would likely be tied in creating a whole European division. I think this announcement and the amount of games in the UK the past few years now proves the NFL in Toronto dream is likely dead for many reasons we already know. Why the nhl is so tepid in growing its base in Europe is beyond me opportunity wasted on bettmans part.

jonny24 Oct 11, 2022 2:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9753592)

It's more NHL the Product rather than Hockey the Sport, if that makes sense. This is mostly conjecture on my behalf but it explains the wide gap between Canadians coming out for NHL hockey but not for CHL, women's, or any other various kinds at different levels. This works out fine for the NHL (money is money) but does a lot of damage to the sport at the grassroots level.

That makes total sense to me, and about sums up what I think has happened in football as well. People are "NFL Fans", not "football fans" and the CFL struggles because of that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN (Post 9753745)
I sometimes wonder having one or two teams as part of US dominated leagues (including NHL) has hurt Canadian domestic leagues development and acceptance by a wider domestic audience. And as a result there are less positions for Canadians to play professional in their country.
Will the idea of having one or two Canadian teams in the US dominated woman’s professional soccer league help or hinder the establishment of a Canadian domestic woman’s professional soccer league.

Absolutely. There's no other reason why we couldn't be Australia. They have 10 million people less than us, but have 18 professional AFL teams, 17 professional NRL teams (plus there's one in NZ), 5 pro Super Rugby teams, I think 12 pro A-league soccer teams, 8 pro cricket teams, I think pro basketball too, plus managing all the more one-off event like horse racing, car racing, tennis, etc.

But instead of leagues building out and developing over the whole country, the biggest cities get pulled to the US, leaving the rest of the country well short of critical mass to become what they could be otherwise. Things are changing, the CPL and CEBL being the best examples but they are still very "minor-league" and nowhere close to the American counterparts. Now I'd argue that the Raptors actually created a lot of the basketball awareness and fandom that exists, rather than taking away anything that was already there.

Acajack Oct 11, 2022 2:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9756129)
Roger Goodell hinted in his London press conference today that London could host not one but 2 NFL teams and that if it were to happen it would likely be tied in creating a whole European division. I think this announcement and the amount of games in the UK the past few years now proves the NFL in Toronto dream is likely dead for many reasons we already know. Why the nhl is so tepid in growing its base in Europe is beyond me opportunity wasted on bettmans part.

I don't think that's necessarily true, even if I also feel the NFL is pretty unlikely to come to Toronto regardless.

The NFL essentially views Toronto (and Canada) as almost part of the American domestic market, not as some foreign market still be conquered.

They had us at "hello".

Acajack Oct 11, 2022 2:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonny24 (Post 9757032)
That makes total sense to me, and about sums up what I think has happened in football as well. People are "NFL Fans", not "football fans" and the CFL struggles because of that.

The Americans are noticeably better (sic) than us at this. Not just for football, but for many sports.

That's why you see large crowds for high school football in Texas, for example.

Acajack Oct 11, 2022 3:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonny24 (Post 9757032)

Absolutely. There's no other reason why we couldn't be Australia. They have 10 million people less than us, but have 18 professional AFL teams, 17 professional NRL teams (plus there's one in NZ), 5 pro Super Rugby teams, I think 12 pro A-league soccer teams, 8 pro cricket teams, I think pro basketball too, plus managing all the more one-off event like horse racing, car racing, tennis, etc.

But instead of leagues building out and developing over the whole country, the biggest cities get pulled to the US, leaving the rest of the country well short of critical mass to become what they could be otherwise. Things are changing, the CPL and CEBL being the best examples but they are still very "minor-league" and nowhere close to the American counterparts. Now I'd argue that the Raptors actually created a lot of the basketball awareness and fandom that exists, rather than taking away anything that was already there.

While I think this was a possibility in the past and that we could have been more like Australia, I think that ship has sailed and won't be coming back into port.

Australians are also more of a sporting nation (both as participants and spectators) so there is also that.

I applaud the CPL and CEBL but we've seen these types of Canadian leagues in various sports in the past and they have almost all failed. Hopefully these guys will be the exceptions. I'd caution against being too optimistic.

MonctonRad Oct 11, 2022 3:06 PM

The Moncton Wildcats of the QMJHL has gone all out, purchasing an organ for home games, and hiring a professional organist to play the beast.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/resized.ima...gan-4456_0.jpg

Apparently the organ was purchased from the same manufacturer who supplied the organ to the Detroit Red Wings, and is very similar to it.

thurmas Oct 11, 2022 3:37 PM

Tsn reporting hockey canada ceo and entire board are resigning to be replaced by new board. Likely due to Bauer pulling out as their equipment supplier this morning.

q12 Oct 11, 2022 3:40 PM

Quote:

Smith, Hockey Canada board of directors stepping down

Hockey Canada announced that CEO Scott Smith and the entire board of directors is stepping down effectively immediately to "make room for a new slate of directors."
https://www.tsn.ca/scott-smith-hocke...down-1.1860721

Video Link


https://c.tenor.com/AhmpELYIfBEAAAAC...itanic1997.gif

thewave46 Oct 11, 2022 3:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9757087)
Tsn reporting hockey canada ceo and entire board are resigning to be replaced by new board. Likely due to Bauer pulling out as their equipment supplier this morning.

This logic always confused me.

A scandal erupts, current board decides to dig in its heels despite terrible optics. They circle the wagons for awhile despite being in an indefensible position. Sure enough, eventually somebody important (usually the money) tells them to go pound sand, because the smell of a rotting corpse won't magically go away.

Off they go. At least they look particularly stupid on the way out? :shrug:

esquire Oct 11, 2022 3:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9757042)
I don't think that's necessarily true, even if I also feel the NFL is pretty unlikely to come to Toronto regardless.

The NFL essentially views Toronto (and Canada) as almost part of the American domestic market, not as some foreign market still be conquered.

They had us at "hello".

In some respects Toronto is to the NFL as Halifax is to the CFL. Both cities could probably support teams in those respective leagues, but the front-end costs have ballooned so much (new NFL stadium likely clocking in at close to a billion dollars, new CFL stadium probably at least 200 million dollars) that it is now prohibitively expensive. The Toronto NFL promoters also have to deal with a massive franchise fee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad (Post 9757054)
The Moncton Wildcats of the QMJHL has gone all out, purchasing an organ for home games, and hiring a professional organist to play the beast.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/resized.ima...gan-4456_0.jpg

Apparently the organ was purchased from the same manufacturer who supplied the organ to the Detroit Red Wings, and is very similar to it.

Whoa that is impressive, I love it! Adds character to the place.

esquire Oct 11, 2022 3:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9757099)
This logic always confused me.

A scandal erupts, current board decides to dig in its heels despite terrible optics. They circle the wagons for awhile despite being in an indefensible position. Sure enough, eventually somebody important (usually the money) tells them to go pound sand, because the smell of a rotting corpse won't magically go away.

Off they go. At least they look particularly stupid on the way out? :shrug:

The fate of Hockey Canada was sealed by Andrea Skinner's catastrophic performance in front of the House of Commons committee investigating HC.

thurmas Oct 11, 2022 3:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9757100)
In some respects Toronto is to the NFL as Halifax is to the CFL. Both cities could probably support teams in those respective leagues, but the front-end costs have ballooned so much (new NFL stadium likely clocking in at close to a billion dollars, new CFL stadium probably at least 200 million dollars) that it is now prohibitively expensive. The Toronto NFL promoters also have to deal with a massive franchise fee.



Whoa that is impressive, I love it! Adds character to the place.

The northwestern University New 35,000 seat stadium in Chicago will be over $800 million USD. Basically an IG field. An NFL stadium in Toronto would easily be over $ 2 billion now.

JHikka Oct 14, 2022 2:13 PM

Canadian brand OVO Sound will be on FC Barcelona's kit for the first El Clasico against Real Madrid this season on Sunday. It's part of Barcelona's recent deal with Spotify, with Drake celebrating 50 billion streams on the platform.

https://www.highsnobiety.com/static-.../ovo-barca.jpg

https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/arti...ico-at-madrid/

JHikka Oct 21, 2022 5:53 PM

Jays Postseason 2022:

ALWC Game 1: 1,910,500 on Sportsnet. Comparables: Canada/Czechia RR at 2022 World U20s on TSN (1.899M), 2022 NFL Divisional playoffs LA/TB on CTV (1.849M)

ALWC Game 2: 2,811,500 on Sportsnet. Comparables: 2021 Grey Cup on TSN (2.873M), Canada/Russia SF at 2021 World U20s on TSN (2.8M).

blueandgoldguy Nov 2, 2022 1:27 AM

Sportico has released their annual list of NHL franchise valuations.

https://www.sportico.com/feature/nhl...XOYL0#cxrecs_s

Canadian teams ranks as follows:

1. Toronto Maple Leafs $2.12 billion
3. Montreal Canadiens $1.7 billion
8. Edmonton Oilers $1.29 billion
11. Vancouver Canucks $1 billion
19. Calgary Flames $870 million
22. Winnipeg Jets $805 million
27. Ottawa Senators $655 million

Oh, and Skyscraper Forum's 2 favourite franchises, the Florida Panthers and the Arizona Coyotes, bring up the rear valued at $595 million and $465 million respectively.

EpicPonyTime Nov 2, 2022 1:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy (Post 9778788)
Sportico has released their annual list of NHL franchise valuations.

https://www.sportico.com/feature/nhl...XOYL0#cxrecs_s

Canadian teams ranks as follows:

1. Toronto Maple Leafs $2.12 billion
3. Montreal Canadiens $1.7 billion
8. Edmonton Oilers $1.29 billion
11. Vancouver Canucks $1 billion
19. Calgary Flames $870 million
22. Winnipeg Jets $805 million
27. Ottawa Senators $655 million

Oh, and Skyscraper Forum's 2 favourite franchises, the Florida Panthers and the Arizona Coyotes, bring up the rear valued at $595 million and $465 million respectively.

Jeez, I remember when the Oilers were worth 500 million. Crazy how much their value has shot up following the development of Rogers Place.

Berklon Nov 2, 2022 3:15 AM

How the leagues compare for average franchise values:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FgeT0-lX...g&name=900x900

The NHL is just dragging and are closer to MLS than they are the other 3.

MLS values still holding their own.

Hackslack Nov 2, 2022 3:23 AM

$4.14 billion for an NFL franchise, plus another $1 billion at least for a stadium… I don’t see Toronto getting an NFL team any time soon.

blueandgoldguy Nov 2, 2022 3:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon (Post 9778880)
How the leagues compare for average franchise values:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FgeT0-lX...g&name=900x900

The NHL is just dragging and are closer to MLS than they are the other 3.

MLS values still holding their own.

MLS valuations are the most distorted. Their TV revenue sucks and revenue outside of the gate is questionable. They depend on those constant expansion fees to boost the league's revenues and minimize losses. That's about to come to an end in the near future though. Right now, MLS looks like a paper tiger.

blueandgoldguy Nov 2, 2022 3:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 9778893)
$4.14 billion for an NFL franchise, plus another $1 billion at least for a stadium… I don’t see Toronto getting an NFL team any time soon.

It would probably cost $5 - $6 billion Canadian for Toronto to buy an existing team or get an expansion team (not that it will happen) and build a 70,000 seat domed stadium.

JHikka Nov 2, 2022 3:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy (Post 9778896)
MLS valuations are the most distorted. Their TV revenue sucks and revenue outside of the gate is questionable. They depend on those constant expansion fees to boost the league's revenues and minimize losses. That's about to come to an end in the near future though. Right now, MLS looks like a paper tiger.

People have been saying this for a decade and yet it continues. Its value-to-revenue rate is 10x, more than double the NHL's 5x. It has a bit to catch up to bring that ratio down but the value is inherent in the product and infrastructure.

esquire Nov 2, 2022 3:10 PM

Soccer probably has a significantly higher ceiling in the US than hockey does for a variety of reasons. It's not hard to imagine the NHL and MLS basically swapping places in the American pro sports hierarchy before long.

JHikka Nov 2, 2022 3:13 PM

Forgot to mention it but CPL got 14,992 out for the final in Ottawa this past Sunday. Largest crowd for a final and most tickets sold for a match in CPL history. Onwards and upwards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9779182)
Soccer probably has a significantly higher ceiling in the US than hockey does for a variety of reasons. It's not hard to imagine the NHL and MLS basically swapping places in the American pro sports hierarchy before long.

Probably in the next 15-20 years.

HomeInMyShoes Nov 2, 2022 3:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad (Post 9757054)
The Moncton Wildcats of the QMJHL has gone all out, purchasing an organ for home games, and hiring a professional organist to play the beast.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/resized.ima...gan-4456_0.jpg

Apparently the organ was purchased from the same manufacturer who supplied the organ to the Detroit Red Wings, and is very similar to it.

I missed this. This is totally awesome.

VANRIDERFAN Nov 2, 2022 4:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9779182)
Soccer probably has a significantly higher ceiling in the US than hockey does for a variety of reasons. It's not hard to imagine the NHL and MLS basically swapping places in the American pro sports hierarchy before long.

I think it would be better for Canadian Professional Soccer if the three Canadian MLS franchises move to the CPL. I really believe that when we balkanize our pro leagues we just cut off opportunities for Canadians to go to the next level.

Hawrylyshyn Nov 2, 2022 4:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN (Post 9779242)
I think it would be better for Canadian Professional Soccer if the three Canadian MLS franchises move to the CPL. I really believe that when we balkanize our pro leagues we just cut off opportunities for Canadians to go to the next level.

This'll never happen unfortunately. The amount of money they'd be giving up is astronomical.

VANRIDERFAN Nov 2, 2022 4:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawrylyshyn (Post 9779259)
This'll never happen unfortunately. The amount of money they'd be giving up is astronomical.

I realize that.
There is a move afoot to get a Toronto franchise into the NWSL and I think that the effort should be to get a National Canadian Womens Pro Soccer league off the ground instead.

But it appears that some Canadians are more enamoured in being a branch of the US tree vice growing our own forest.

Hawrylyshyn Nov 2, 2022 4:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN (Post 9779264)
I realize that.
There is a move afoot to get a Toronto franchise into the NWSL and I think that the effort should be to get a National Canadian Womens Pro Soccer league off the ground instead.

But it appears that some Canadians are more enamoured in being a branch of the US tree vice growing our own forest.

A women's version of the Canadian Premier League would be fantastic :)

JHikka Nov 2, 2022 4:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawrylyshyn (Post 9779268)
A women's version of the Canadian Premier League would be fantastic :)

That's the current plan at the moment. CPL was thrown off by the pandemic, as with everyone else, but the eventual plan is for a Canadian national women's league.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN
But it appears that some Canadians are more enamoured in being a branch of the US tree vice growing our own forest.

Not sure why you feel the need to point fingers. It's not a controversial opinion that American leagues have higher ceilings than their Canadian counterparts. As long as we have strong domestic leagues in Canada then it's fine to have a couple teams in the American pyramid. At the moment things are working pretty well for the CPL with a number of players already moving on to the next step with MLS because the CPL provides a logical place on the pyramid just below the largest American league - to have Canadian teams tied into that provides more opportunities for Canadians which otherwise wouldn't exist. It's no different from Welsh teams participating in the English pyramid.

VANRIDERFAN Nov 2, 2022 4:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9779274)
That's the current plan at the moment. CPL was thrown off by the pandemic, as with everyone else, but the eventual plan is for a Canadian national women's league.


Not sure why you feel the need to point fingers. It's not a controversial opinion that American leagues have higher ceilings than their Canadian counterparts. As long as we have strong domestic leagues in Canada then it's fine to have a couple teams in the American pyramid. At the moment things are working pretty well for the CPL with a number of players already moving on to the next step with MLS because the CPL provides a logical place on the pyramid just below the largest American league - to have Canadian teams tied into that provides more opportunities for Canadians which otherwise wouldn't exist. It's no different from Welsh teams participating in the English pyramid.

I'll take that hit every day. I'm a huge CFL fan and while I understand Canadians preferring NFL over the domestic league, I really bristle at the folks who loudly proclaim they want to see the end of the CFL for some reason.

I'm of the opinion that there is a lack of pride in Canada when it comes to our sports and culture (even the NHL is now a US based entity) and we'd have a much more vibrant country if we'd put more effort into our own entities vice being a lost entity within the US behemoth.

I also realize that I'm a lonely voice.


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