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-   -   Canadian Airport Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153826)

jamincan Oct 2, 2020 3:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9061502)
Yeah it’s true the range shouldn’t be an issue on the 763, especially westbound, unless all of Europe wasn’t a viable alternate (highly unlikely). It couldn’t have been a non-ER 762 as AC never ETOPS’d them.

Here’s my theory (version 3.0, lol): either a fuel shortage at YYC or the fuellers were on strike at YYC that day.

Do you actually require ETOPS for North Atlantic tracks? I thought that diversion points were frequent enough to not require it.

This is the YYC-LHR great circle with 60-, 75-, and 90-minute ETOPS paths marked.
http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=yyc-lhr&E...X=720x360&PM=*

SaskScraper Oct 2, 2020 5:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coldrsx (Post 9060459)
Canadian used to have a YYC-YEG-LHR-YEG-YYC routing in the early/mid-90s on a 747-400 I believe (may have been a 200).

I vividly recall my nose view in seats 1H1K.

Those were the days.

Speaking of flights from here to London, and refueling... since Westjet is now providing covid insurance, husband & I are planning on booking Saskatoon to London for $C 690 round trip next spring. Has anyone else flown to EU or UK since beginning of pandemic?

I must admit I'm a little nervous, hard to plan anything that far ahead.
We didn't get back to the UK this year, the one year my husband would have wanted to go back for a funeral for a family member :(

Dominion301 Oct 2, 2020 5:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamincan (Post 9061526)
Do you actually require ETOPS for North Atlantic tracks? I thought that diversion points were frequent enough to not require it.

This is the YYC-LHR great circle with 60-, 75-, and 90-minute ETOPS paths marked.
http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=yyc-lhr&E...X=720x360&PM=*

ETOPS or not, the non-ER 762s wouldn't have been able to make YWG-LHR.

Whil I'm no pilot, I've never heard of being able to do transatlantic without ETOPS. Even YYT-LHR needs ETOPS. On the GC map of YYC-LHR, that's the shortest route, but even there, the gap between SFJ or YFB and KEF is big. KEF-SNN is even bigger.

Dominion301 Oct 2, 2020 5:48 PM

Canada's first airline (Iskwew Air) owned and operated by an Indigenous woman, if being honoured in a 'Superwomen' book! Cool!

Quote:

The graphic novel features the stories of 18 women who not only emulate the character traits of Wonder Woman, but who are recognized as real-life heroines for changing the world in some way.
https://www.skiesmag.com/news/iskwew...-wonder-woman/

thenoflyzone Oct 2, 2020 8:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamincan (Post 9061526)
Do you actually require ETOPS for North Atlantic tracks? I thought that diversion points were frequent enough to not require it.

To cross the Atlantic, no you don't. As for your second question, yes, you are correct, they are, assuming the weather is acceptable enough to use those locations as alternates. Because your flight is dependant on the weather at these 3 airports every single day, you can't provide any meaningful daily service on a TATL run without at least 120 minutes ETOPS approval.

Now, as for NAT tracks, they change everyday, (in order to take advantage of the tailwinds for the eastbound rush, and in order to avoid them for the westbound rush), and some (if not most) of them, at certain points are often more than 60 minutes away from the nearest airport.

When crossing the North atlantic without ETOPS, you're most likely not going to use the NAT tracks, and will file your own routing to stay close to the coast at all times. Such routings are seldom refused, due to the limitation of the aircraft.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9061696)
ETOPS or not, the non-ER 762s wouldn't have been able to make YWG-LHR.

Whil I'm no pilot, I've never heard of being able to do transatlantic without ETOPS.

You most definitely can. Using YFB, SFJ and KEF as alternates, it’s doable. You just need to make sure you are within 60 minute (on single engine cruise speed) of one of these airports at all times.

I'll give you an example:

Surinam Airways' lone B772ER is currently not ETOPS certified. They flew AMS-PBM 3 weeks ago, hugging the coasts of Iceland, Greenland and then North America, to stay within 60 minute diversion time throughout the flight. What normally takes 9 hours took over 12 hours, but the flight was completed. Over 2,000 extra km's were flown.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SLM995P

I've seen Transat fly a similar "balloon" routing out of YUL because the A330 they were using wasn't ETOPS capable that day. It's more of a headache for the dispatcher than anyone else, really. The pilot simply flies the routing the dispatcher gives him, and as long as the plane has the legs for the extra km's, it's no big deal.

In the case of YYC or YWG to FRA, the extra km's needed to fly a non-ETOPS routing are negligible. So it definitely should have been doable, even in a non-ER, non-ETOPS B762.

jamincan Oct 2, 2020 9:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9061955)
You most definitely can. Using YFB, SFJ and KEF as alternates, it’s doable. You just need to make sure you are within 60 minute (on single engine cruise speed) of one of these airports at all times.

Do you know what airport would be used as the alternate between YFB and YYC or YWG? Obviously there are intermediate airports, but I don't know if a 762 could land at any of them. All of the major airports seem to be over 1100nm from YFB which I think is outside the 60 min limit for a 767.

Dominion301 Oct 3, 2020 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9061955)
To cross the Atlantic, no you don't. As for your second question, yes, you are correct, they are, assuming the weather is acceptable enough to use those locations as alternates. Because your flight is dependant on the weather at these 3 airports every single day, you can't provide any meaningful daily service on a TATL run without at least 120 minutes ETOPS approval.

Now, as for NAT tracks, they change everyday, (in order to take advantage of the tailwinds for the eastbound rush, and in order to avoid them for the westbound rush), and some (if not most) of them, at certain points are often more than 60 minutes away from the nearest airport.

When crossing the North atlantic without ETOPS, you're most likely not going to use the NAT tracks, and will file your own routing to stay close to the coast at all times. Such routings are seldom refused, due to the limitation of the aircraft.



You most definitely can. Using YFB, SFJ and KEF as alternates, it’s doable. You just need to make sure you are within 60 minute (on single engine cruise speed) of one of these airports at all times.

I'll give you an example:

Surinam Airways' lone B772ER is currently not ETOPS certified. They flew AMS-PBM 3 weeks ago, hugging the coasts of Iceland, Greenland and then North America, to stay within 60 minute diversion time throughout the flight. What normally takes 9 hours took over 12 hours, but the flight was completed. Over 2,000 extra km's were flown.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SLM995P

I've seen Transat fly a similar "balloon" routing out of YUL because the A330 they were using wasn't ETOPS capable that day. It's more of a headache for the dispatcher than anyone else, really. The pilot simply flies the routing the dispatcher gives him, and as long as the plane has the legs for the extra km's, it's no big deal.

In the case of YYC or YWG to FRA, the extra km's needed to fly a non-ETOPS routing are negligible. So it definitely should have been doable, even in a non-ER, non-ETOPS B762.

Thanks from the ATC perspective for all that great info. The only thing though is the non-ER 762 didn’t have the legs for YWG-FRA nonstop, about 1,000 km short, let alone YYC.

thenoflyzone Oct 3, 2020 1:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamincan (Post 9062042)
Do you know what airport would be used as the alternate between YFB and YYC or YWG? Obviously there are intermediate airports, but I don't know if a 762 could land at any of them. All of the major airports seem to be over 1100nm from YFB which I think is outside the 60 min limit for a 767.

Churchill (YYQ) has a 9,200ft runway.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=ywg-fra,&...&EV=415&EU=kts

The circles around each diversion airport represents 1 hour flying time on single engine speed for a B767, which is 415 knots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9062253)
Thanks from the ATC perspective for all that great info. The only thing though is the non-ER 762 didn’t have the legs for YWG-FRA nonstop, about 1,000 km short, let alone YYC.

I was going by Boeing data when I quoted the range. Boeing says the B762 range is around 3,900 nm (7,200 km). That should be enough for YWG-FRA, especially eastbound. Westbound might be an issue though with the headwinds. This is assuming AC had the highest weight variant, obviously. That I don't know.

http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com.../acaps/767.pdf

p.47

thenoflyzone Oct 3, 2020 1:02 PM

In other news, BA finally resumed YUL service yesterday. Weren't they also going to resume YVR this month? What happened with that? It's not on the list. I guess they pushed it back to November.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38...as-of-25sep20/

TK keeps delaying YVR as well. Now planned for January.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38...e-to-jan-2021/

Dominion301 Oct 3, 2020 3:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9062293)
Churchill (YYQ) has a 9,200ft runway.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=ywg-fra,&...&EV=415&EU=kts

The circles around each diversion airport represents 1 hour flying time on single engine speed for a B767, which is 415 knots.



I was going by Boeing data when I quoted the range. Boeing says the B762 range is around 3,900 nm (7,200 km). That should be enough for YWG-FRA, especially eastbound. Westbound might be an issue though with the headwinds. This is assuming AC had the highest weight variant, obviously. That I don't know.

http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com.../acaps/767.pdf

p.47

Interesting. I have found other documentation with a max range of around 5,500 km. I don’t think AC ever used their non-ER 762s outside of North America. They pretty much did domestic transcons, Rapidairs, Florida and YYZ-California.

hollywoodcory Oct 3, 2020 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9062540)
In other news, BA finally resumed YUL service yesterday. Weren't they also going to resume YVR this month? What happened with that? It's not on the list. I guess they pushed it back to November.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38...as-of-25sep20/

TK keeps delaying YVR as well. Now planned for January.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38...e-to-jan-2021/

BA has YVR scheduled from Oct 25th however, they just like AC have not updated their long haul schedules after the 24th. Not sure what the hold up is now that the EU has agreed to waive the slot restrictions through winter.

Speaking of AC, yesterday they resumed passenger flights from YYZ to Asia. Didn't really check HKG, but it appeared like they carried less than 50 people to NRT?

nname Oct 4, 2020 3:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9062980)
BA has YVR scheduled from Oct 25th however, they just like AC have not updated their long haul schedules after the 24th. Not sure what the hold up is now that the EU has agreed to waive the slot restrictions through winter.

Speaking of AC, yesterday they resumed passenger flights from YYZ to Asia. Didn't really check HKG, but it appeared like they carried less than 50 people to NRT?

As mentioned in their quarterly earning report, flights to HKG and NRT are mainly for cargo. Passengers are just extra revenues.

hollywoodcory Oct 5, 2020 2:45 PM

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38...as-of-04oct20/

AC S21 changes. Interesting they can load summer changes, but not update their schedule from October 25 onwards for the winter.

Looks like YUL-GRU is being extended to year-round, and YYZ/YUL-ATH upguaged to a 77W. A few other routes had mostly equipment changes.

As for WS, they've extended YYZ-YVR 789 service until early December. So far showing daily in November.

Also as we all expected WestJet has returned the slots they obtained for LHR.

Dominion301 Oct 5, 2020 8:58 PM

O&D route stat for 2019: YYC-LGW/LHR = 434,441

Dominion301 Oct 5, 2020 9:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9064078)
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38...as-of-04oct20/

AC S21 changes. Interesting they can load summer changes, but not update their schedule from October 25 onwards for the winter.

Looks like YUL-GRU is being extended to year-round, and YYZ/YUL-ATH upguaged to a 77W. A few other routes had mostly equipment changes.

As for WS, they've extended YYZ-YVR 789 service until early December. So far showing daily in November.

Also as we all expected WestJet has returned the slots they obtained for LHR.

If even 1/3 of this operates next summer I'll be amazed. Keep in mind, this is only routes with equipment changes.

Dominion301 Oct 5, 2020 9:06 PM

YSB April-June 2020 traffic stats:

Quote:

Like most regional and community airports, the Greater Sudbury has seen a steep decline in passenger traffic since COVID-19 first hit, with only 4,634 from April 1 to June 30 — a drop of 92 per cent from the same period in 2019.
https://www.vulcanadvocate.com/news/...a-860020e7b2ab

Airboy Oct 5, 2020 9:38 PM

Will have local airport conditions when I fly out to the coast tomorrow. YEG, YVR and YXT specifically. Depending on my schedule I may add YYC on the way back.

nname Oct 5, 2020 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9064078)
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38...as-of-04oct20/

AC S21 changes. Interesting they can load summer changes, but not update their schedule from October 25 onwards for the winter.

Looks like YUL-GRU is being extended to year-round, and YYZ/YUL-ATH upguaged to a 77W. A few other routes had mostly equipment changes.

They need to have something scheduled so people can make reservation. Reduction will always come later :D

hollywoodcory Oct 6, 2020 1:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 9064513)
They need to have something scheduled so people can make reservation. Reduction will always come later :D

Other than YUL-GRU, all of those routes were already bookable in S21. October 25 is less than 3 weeks away and they are still selling a full winter schedule.

WestJet and Air Canada are always the last North American carriers to update their schedules.

YYCguys Oct 6, 2020 4:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9064078)
Also as we all expected WestJet has returned the slots they obtained for LHR.

Why would they pay dearly to obtain them just to return them just a few weeks later?!!?! :shrug:


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