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-   -   PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=160247)

jsbrook May 9, 2017 2:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SEFTA (Post 7799396)
It seems to me that they're attempting to manipulate the mix of development. Would it be safe to assume that student housing is free to develop on the commercial streets just not the smaller, mostly single family homes streets? That seems a fair mix if so, and not unusual. Assuming there are enough places where multi-family development can be done. It should not be a total blanket but a quilt of priorities.
Often these empty lots are owned by developers and waiting to expand them. Attempting to gut the neighborhood.
It's a battle being raged on every urban campus. The townies and the students. It's vital to come up with the right mix and making attempts to do so. I like to believe it's being done for the best interest of the community.

Time will tell. But I don't think this is going to be a positive development here, even assuming the attentions were good. I suppose back to real construction news now.

1487 May 9, 2017 2:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsbrook (Post 7799394)
You are seriously off the mark here. Certain portions of areas that were down-zoned are not problematic. And there was a certain amount of upzoning in some spots. That said, East of Ridge Ave, they took lots of RM-1 and turned it into RSA-5, reducing the number of potential dwellings by 2/3s right off the area Clarke and PHA say they want a commercial corridor. This is where the most vacancy is in this section, so it's where most of the new development can occur. And now it WON'T. You look at maps of the area, and 3/4 of the map is yellow - RSA-5, 2, 1, or some other ill-conceived single family designation that has no business being on a metropolitan map in today's age. It's impossible to build Single Family homes on lots that size, in that location, unless its subsidized PHA housing. Such government subsidized housing in unsustainable. Lots will simply sit empty. Watch.

If the concern was helping existing lower income people remain in some single-family homes in the area, there are much more intelligible solutions that don't have the consequences this will have. Such as adaptive reuse of existing single-family housing stock and tax relief for longstanding property owners in the area to mediate the rising cost of living there. Not blocking any higher density buildings. The only real way to tackle the affordable housing crisis is with increased density. This is very poor city planning under the guise of maintaining the "character" of neighborhoods. We will see many vacant grass lots remain so when they could have been developed. The economics no longer make sense. At best, if the demand is there, we might see some larger, more expensive single-family homes for occupation by college students or families, but these won't improve the lives or financial burdens of longtime residents either.


affordable housing wasn't mentioned and I see no way the changes would aid that. Don't even know why you went off on that tangent. Not sure what part of Philly you are talking about but the area west of Temple generally had decent size rowhouses so the suggestion that no on can build a modern single family house on existing lots makes no sense to me. If you can build a 10 units student building on these lots you sure as hell can build a single family house. It's happening in South Philly and other parts of North Philly- not sure what makes this area so different. Single family zoning shouldn't exist in the city today? Seriously? This isn't new york. Philadelphia still has a huge amount of single family housing relative to that and other large cities. That's one of it's attributes and likely one thing that has attracted younger people from other cities who want to experience home ownership. Crap student housing isn't quality multifamily housing. It's cheap, the owners could care less about the long term viability of the area and you end up with a transient population that generates a ton of trash who has zero commitment to the area. As I said, I would not want to be an existing resident in this area nor would I ever plan on buying a house in this area if this is the long term trajectory of the neighborhood.

1487 May 9, 2017 2:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SEFTA (Post 7799396)
It seems to me that they're attempting to manipulate the mix of development. Would it be safe to assume that student housing is free to develop on the commercial streets just not the smaller, mostly single family homes streets? That seems a fair mix if so, and not unusual. Assuming there are enough places where multi-family development can be done. It should not be a total blanket but a quilt of priorities.
Often these empty lots are owned by developers and waiting to expand them. Attempting to gut the neighborhood.
It's a battle being raged on every urban campus. The townies and the students. It's vital to come up with the right mix and making attempts to do so. I like to believe it's being done for the best interest of the community.

The PCPC presentation and map showed that they looked to change the designation of blocks that were still overwhelmingly single family housing to prevent them from changing over. Other parts of the district were there are few homeowners left were not changed and there is still a zone near the campus where the multi family is desired. They did not ban student housing from this area so people should relax. And honestly, I'm not so sure it's a bad thing that this may ultimately lead to development of more large housing structures on or near Temple's campus.

jsbrook May 9, 2017 3:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1487 (Post 7799459)
affordable housing wasn't mentioned and I see no way the changes would aid that. Don't even know why you went off on that tangent. Not sure what part of Philly you are talking about but the area west of Temple generally had decent size rowhouses so the suggestion that no on can build a modern single family house on existing lots makes no sense to me. If you can build a 10 units student building on these lots you sure as hell can build a single family house. It's happening in South Philly and other parts of North Philly- not sure what makes this area so different. Single family zoning shouldn't exist in the city today? Seriously? This isn't new york. Philadelphia still has a huge amount of single family housing relative to that and other large cities. That's one of it's attributes and likely one thing that has attracted younger people from other cities who want to experience home ownership. Crap student housing isn't quality multifamily housing. It's cheap, the owners could care less about the long term viability of the area and you end up with a transient population that generates a ton of trash who has zero commitment to the area. As I said, I would not want to be an existing resident in this area nor would I ever plan on buying a house in this area if this is the long term trajectory of the neighborhood.

We should probably drop it. The conversation is going nowhere good. It will play out as it will play out.

Knight Hospitaller May 9, 2017 3:47 PM

We definitely all should get together for a drink when the Four Seasons opens. Arguing endlessly is more difficult without anonymity.

br323206 May 9, 2017 4:02 PM

I think multi-family housing is good and should be encouraged, but I also see the point about having too many student housing complexes and wanting a good mix. I don't think it is as black and white as everyone seems to imply, on both sides.

But one thing that hasn't come into this discussion is the fact that this isn't something they are doing just around Temple. These corrective zoning bills have been put forth for areas all over the city. Basically the 2035 plan called for RM zoning to be changed to RSA zoning anywhere where existing rowhomes are the predominant housing type--and the city has been following through with that. It had nothing to do with Darrell Clarke and had everything to do with the PCPC deciding, based on their professional knowledge, that it was a good strategy to maintain the character of rowhouse neighborhoods throughout the city. Again, I happen to disagree and I think more multi-family housing in rowhouse neighborhoods would be a good thing--but they did have a solid rationale for the change. I also think that the recommendation painted with too broad a brush, as there are unique circumstances associated with different neighborhoods. But no policy is perfect.

cafeguy May 9, 2017 4:15 PM

Just an update on Liberty Square since I live right at the site. The Thompson street building has the garage excavated and 4 of the 5 stories built up.

They are now excavating along germantown for the garage under the second building.

There was a big delay because of ground water issues and attaining permits to drain that water so they should be blasting ahead now.

http://www.blackstonedt.com/uploads/...om_960x450.jpg


http://www.blackstonedt.com/projects/liberty-square


Oh shit...did a new project just steal Liberty Square's name!?!?!? https://philly.curbed.com/2017/5/9/1...rdc-properties

1487 May 9, 2017 4:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsbrook (Post 7799488)
We should probably drop it. The conversation is going nowhere good. It will play out as it will play out.

if you say so. The facts of what was changed aren't debatable at all. Did you look at the actual new map? There was no mass downzoning and thus all the doom and gloom you talked about seems highly unlikely, especially when so much of the area is still zoned for multifamily. I don't understand why people can't handle even minor disagreements without it becoming some major explosion of emotion. It seems your issues with Clarke have you blowing these changes way out of proportion.

No one was debating the best way to develop affordable housing BTW. Not sure how that entered the discussion.

City Wide May 9, 2017 8:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller (Post 7799538)
We definitely all should get together for a drink when the Four Seasons opens. Arguing endlessly is more difficult without anonymity.

I'll order a well sugared and well taxed Coke!

City Wide May 9, 2017 8:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by summersm343 (Post 7797710)
Agree 100%. This dude has got to go. This area North of Girard and South of Cecil B was starting to fill in with some nice, mixed-use multifamily development.

Darrell Clarke wanted to down-zone it because the more of his district that is gentrified, the less likely his future is as a city councilman making 6-figures a year with a pretty pension waiting for him after retirement.

It would be in the entire city's best interest if this clown was gone. I'm tired of my tax paying dollars supporting the paycheck of a moronic council-manic asshat who is almost single-handedly holding the city back.

I will 100% support and fund any petition and protest (or whatever else) needed to get Darrell Clarke out of office.

Be careful for what you wish for; I remember a time not too long ago when Jannie Blackwell thought she would make a good council president. That really would be end of the world time.
Out with Clarke, but the same ship of fools that voted him into office will decide who's next. How about bring J. Street back to power!

Knight Hospitaller May 9, 2017 9:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by City Wide (Post 7799949)
I'll order a well sugared and well taxed Coke!

Add Rum for good measure.

Daario May 9, 2017 9:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1487 (Post 7799656)
if you say so. The facts of what was changed aren't debatable at all. Did you look at the actual new map? There was no mass downzoning and thus all the doom and gloom you talked about seems highly unlikely, especially when so much of the area is still zoned for multifamily. I don't understand why people can't handle even minor disagreements without it becoming some major explosion of emotion. It seems your issues with Clarke have you blowing these changes way out of proportion.

No one was debating the best way to develop affordable housing BTW. Not sure how that entered the discussion.

Haha for once I agree with you here. People here keeping pointing the finger at boogeyman Darrel Clarke when this was entirely the PCPC's work as a part of the greater 2035 plan. CBM, Broad and Ridge weren't really touched. All this did was add consistency and reassurance of stability to a neighborhood that greatly fears the changes in the future.

If anything all the fear of Temple student housing development throughout North Central should be a serious sign to Temple to build more on-campus housing. Especially since application numbers and enrollment keep going up.

PhilliesPhan May 10, 2017 5:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daario (Post 7800058)
Haha for once I agree with you here. People here keeping pointing the finger at boogeyman Darrel Clarke when this was entirely the PCPC's work as a part of the greater 2035 plan. CBM, Broad and Ridge weren't really touched. All this did was add consistency and reassurance of stability to a neighborhood that greatly fears the changes in the future.

If anything all the fear of Temple student housing development throughout North Central should be a serious sign to Temple to build more on-campus housing. Especially since application numbers and enrollment keep going up.

I believe that there are plans for more on-campus housing in the Visualize Temple campus master plan; however, the time to build it is NOW and not later on. As a Temple student myself, I didn't even consider on-campus housing and will be moving to 19th and Berks later this month. Why? Aside from the short window of time that actually exists to try and snatch up a place, the prices are fucking INSANE! A room in Morgan Hall alone is $4800/semester ($5100 for the 2-person apartment option)! Why should I dish out $4800/semester when I would only have to spend about $1600/semester ($400/month for a room) plus utilities for a place that is less than a 10 minute walk from campus? With the reduced costs, students also get to live in a student-dominated neighborhood with an overwhelming sense of freedom. Walk down the 1900 block of Gratz Street on a weekend and see what I mean.

As long as Temple constrains the supply of on-campus housing while the demand for it remains astronomical, student housing will continue to dominate the neighborhood. This will only continue as Temple climbs in national rankings (my college, the Fox School of Business, is one of the main reasons for this). The only thing I hope comes out of the rezoning is more student housing being constructed in Hartranft and other areas east of the train station. There isn't as much student housing north and east of campus.

1487 May 10, 2017 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by City Wide (Post 7799949)
I'll order a well sugared and well taxed Coke!

I was at Chipotle on Walnut last week and water costs more than fountain soda. How are we ever going to survive these crushing soda prices??????

1487 May 10, 2017 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by City Wide (Post 7799990)
Be careful for what you wish for; I remember a time not too long ago when Jannie Blackwell thought she would make a good council president. That really would be end of the world time.
Out with Clarke, but the same ship of fools that voted him into office will decide who's next. How about bring J. Street back to power!

If people here had anything beyond basic knowledge of what is going on politically (other than they hate Clarke, they hate Council, they hate city government, they hate Kenney, etc.) they would know his influence has already been diminished because he doesn't seem to hold sway over the newest members like Domb, Gym, Green, etc. The idea that he has the authority to be some sort of secondary mayor at this point is wildly overblown. Council was more united because Nutter was seen as common foe- Kenney isn't and there are 3 or 4 (I think) new members since Nutter left. Times change.

1487 May 10, 2017 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan (Post 7800491)
I believe that there are plans for more on-campus housing in the Visualize Temple campus master plan; however, the time to build it is NOW and not later on. As a Temple student myself, I didn't even consider on-campus housing and will be moving to 19th and Berks later this month. Why? Aside from the short window of time that actually exists to try and snatch up a place, the prices are fucking INSANE! A room in Morgan Hall alone is $4800/semester ($5100 for the 2-person apartment option)! Why should I dish out $4800/semester when I would only have to spend about $1600/semester ($400/month for a room) plus utilities for a place that is less than a 10 minute walk from campus? With the reduced costs, students also get to live in a student-dominated neighborhood with an overwhelming sense of freedom. Walk down the 1900 block of Gratz Street on a weekend and see what I mean.

As long as Temple constrains the supply of on-campus housing while the demand for it remains astronomical, student housing will continue to dominate the neighborhood. This will only continue as Temple climbs in national rankings (my college, the Fox School of Business, is one of the main reasons for this). The only thing I hope comes out of the rezoning is more student housing being constructed in Hartranft and other areas east of the train station. There isn't as much student housing north and east of campus.

Hopefully the View 2 helps with this. But I agree Temple shouldn't have stopped building on campus housing. They totally turned this over to the private sector and kids are forced to move farther and farther away from the campus.

Knight Hospitaller May 10, 2017 2:27 PM

Wake me up when this is over.

cjPhilly May 10, 2017 2:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cafeguy (Post 7799584)
Just an update on Liberty Square since I live right at the site. The Thompson street building has the garage excavated and 4 of the 5 stories built up.

They are now excavating along germantown for the garage under the second building.

Any construction pics?!? This thread DESPERATELY needs some construction pics...

Knight Hospitaller May 10, 2017 2:47 PM

^ Even kittens would be nice at this point.

Philadelcago May 10, 2017 4:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller (Post 7800781)
Wake me up when this is over.

Here's a really helpful link, I've found this makes reading the forums so much easier at times: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/prof...?do=ignorelist

Just pop in the usual suspects and you can get right to the news / updates.


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