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SDCAL Jan 30, 2023 3:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDfan (Post 9851581)
And it's dead:

To be honest I don’t blame the city. Cisterra has had 8 years to make this work. Other projects are getting off the ground. Unfortunately though this means that will probably be a parking lot for another 5-10 years.

Streamliner Jan 30, 2023 6:29 PM

Damn. I'm not surprised but disappointing nonetheless. Sounds like with the Surplus Act they will at least need to move forward with a replacement project. So maybe we'll see a full block of affordable housing right there at some point

mello Jan 30, 2023 8:30 PM

So does this basically come down to failure to secure financing? And if so why? Cisterra is a proven developer this was a solid project whats the hold up. I mean the Pendry Developers will be adding another luxury hotel to Gaslamp in the coming years and Manchester is building the massive Fairmount on the water front... Did the banks just not see the value in this project? Or they could have just gotten rid of the Hotel component and made it just office and residential with the grocery store on the bottom :cheers:

If anyone has insight to what happened here please share. Where do we go from here? I see Padres owner Peter Seidler stepping in here. He has deep pockets Sports Team valuations are through roof Broncos sold for 4.6 billion 6 months and and PHX Suns just sold for 4 billion so the Padres are worth at least 3.2 at this point if not more. A huge tower at that spot would have massive prominence as it would stick up right behind Center field of Petco Park.

SDfan Jan 30, 2023 9:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mello (Post 9852917)
So does this basically come down to failure to secure financing? And if so why? Cisterra is a proven developer this was a solid project whats the hold up. I mean the Pendry Developers will be adding another luxury hotel to Gaslamp in the coming years and Manchester is building the massive Fairmount on the water front... Did the banks just not see the value in this project? Or they could have just gotten rid of the Hotel component and made it just office and residential with the grocery store on the bottom :cheers:

If anyone has insight to what happened here please share. Where do we go from here? I see Padres owner Peter Seidler stepping in here. He has deep pockets Sports Team valuations are through roof Broncos sold for 4.6 billion 6 months and and PHX Suns just sold for 4 billion so the Padres are worth at least 3.2 at this point if not more. A huge tower at that spot would have massive prominence as it would stick up right behind Center field of Petco Park.

From what I understand the project was offering a lot (which made financing complicated), and was likely going to under deliver (exit of high-end brands). Add to that, the city's sour relations with Cisterra over their failed lease to own deals, plus state deadlines with the Surplus Land Act, and viola: goodbye Cisterra!

As for next iterations of 7th and Market, I'm certain it will be a big project with many housing units. Affordable housing and climate advocates will clamor for the city to max out on housing capacity given the site's proximity to jobs, transit and community amenities. Labor will demand a high-rise (and project labor agreement), since they do concrete and steel work and eschew wood frame, stick and podium construction. Local electeds will want a big win on housing, climate and union jobs. So, I'm less concerned about something underwhelming cropping up.

The only thing it that this will take time, as the city is both slow, and now, very cautious about real estate deals in general.

Hopefully we get some inspired design, but given the boxes that are cropping up around downtown these days because of cost constraints (profits > aesthetics), I'll take what I can get lol.

SDCAL Jan 30, 2023 11:50 PM

It’s too bad Ritz or another 5 star brand isn’t slated for the Manchester hotel .. bay views would be a big selling point for luxury rooms. Of course, the design of that is so awful based on the renders, high-end brands probably wouldn’t want to be involved. I’m not familiar with the Fairmount brand - Is that high end or mid range? Seems like a waste for that site, with the upcoming biotech offices, the eventual seaport village re-do, and the bay front location, that seems like the obvious choice for SD’s first 5 star hotel downtown. TBH I was always skeptical about a 5 star hotel at 7th /Market. Every time I walk by there are homeless individuals yelling and doing drugs (part may be due to the Clermont hotel that I believe houses work release parolees). Were people really going to drop $500++ a night to stay at a ritz there? As disappointing as this news is, I’m not sure I saw a successful business model. I’m wondering if that affected the financing as well. I’m sure finance companies look at the conditions of the neighborhood for proposals they are going to fund, and that area is not good. I know because I live near there. It’s gotten worse in the years since the project was initially announced.

Streamliner Jan 31, 2023 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDCAL (Post 9853124)
It’s too bad Ritz or another 5 star brand isn’t slated for the Manchester hotel .. bay views would be a big selling point for luxury rooms. Of course, the design of that is so awful based on the renders, high-end brands probably wouldn’t want to be involved. I’m not familiar with the Fairmount brand - Is that high end or mid range? Seems like a waste for that site, with the upcoming biotech offices, the eventual seaport village re-do, and the bay front location, that seems like the obvious choice for SD’s first 5 star hotel downtown. TBH I was always skeptical about a 5 star hotel at 7th /Market. Every time I walk by there are homeless individuals yelling and doing drugs (part may be due to the Clermont hotel that I believe houses work release parolees). Were people really going to drop $500++ a night to stay at a ritz there? As disappointing as this news is, I’m not sure I saw a successful business model. I’m wondering if that affected the financing as well. I’m sure finance companies look at the conditions of the neighborhood for proposals they are going to fund, and that area is not good. I know because I live near there. It’s gotten worse in the years since the project was initially announced.

I don't think there's a universal standard for star ratings when it comes to hotels, but this hotel could possibly be considered a 5-star hotel. The Grand Del Mar is a Fairmont-run property, and is supposedly one of the more luxurious ones in San Diego. The Grand Del Mar even has a three-star Michelin restaurant, so they may similarly pull out all the stops for their downtown "landmark".

Also, I'm hoping that while I will never like the massing of this tower, maybe the materials will be high quality so it won't come off so depressing.

Image again for reference:

https://images.sdbj.com/wp-content/u...-1-photo-3.jpg

Streamliner Feb 2, 2023 1:31 AM

European chain wants to build 17-story hotel in downtown San Diego near site of proposed Ritz-Carlton

Lori Weisberg
February 1, 2023
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...d-ritz-carlton

https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/d...nm-lad-542.jpg
^ Photo is of CitizenM’s hotel in downtown Los Angeles. The hotel chain’s projects typically have a similar design, no matter where they are located.

Quote:

Citizen M, a Netherlands-based hotel chain that has just eight locations in the U.S., is now setting its sights on downtown San Diego, where it’s hoping to build a 17-story highrise at the corner of 7th Avenue and Market Street.

The planned location is just across the street from the city-owned site where Cisterra has long planned to develop a 164-room Ritz-Carlton hotel
Quote:

The 10,000-square-foot site of the proposed San Diego hotel is located at 702 Market St. and is currently occupied by a surface parking lot. CitizenM acquired the site last August, Sokol said, after spending years surveying San Diego for the perfect location.”

“This site really checked that box for us,” Sokol added. “We had looked at this area over the years, and it’s in one of the most well-rounded neighborhoods, with the convention center, ballpark, a really healthy mix of leisure and business. The locations that just serve business are a tougher sell these days because no one knows what that recovery looks like.”

Sokol won’t say how much the company has budgeted for the project, which would take two years to construct.

SDCAL Feb 2, 2023 3:20 AM

Lori Weisberg should do a story on the history of the Seventh and Market site.

That plot of land is so central but seems to have nothing but problems associated with it.

The Ritz project isn’t the first project to go down in flames.

Back in the 2007/8 time-frame, a big scandal involving Nancy Graham, the head of the previous downtown redev agency, caused a project planned there to be cancelled. Here’s an old render of it and some stories I found on the internet:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...ene_3large.jpg

https://www.kpbs.org/news/2008/09/11...-audit-of-sedc

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sdut-...htmlstory.html

There has also been the history of the Clermont hotel on that site which is another interesting facet. The site has also been described as an important area for African American history, and groups have wanted that reflected in developments there:

https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/.../city-light-1/

Believe it or not, the Clermont hotel has been around since the 1800s!?!?!?!?

I found this interesting article on the history of downtown, and extracted the snipet about Clermont (but the whole article is fascinating)!

https://gaslampfoundation.org/reuben...storic-haunts/

Quote:

In 1887, the historic Clermont Hotel opened its doors to both whites and “people of color” which, in those times, included anyone who was not considered white. This became very important when in 1915, San Diego hosted the Panama-California Exposition, which brought tourists from all over the world to our city. Many were not white and needed places to stay. The Clermont, located at 501 7th Avenue, has an historical designation and still operates as a low-income residential hotel.
In addition to all that, that lot was apparently also a used car lot at one point that the city closed down due to hookers there. Here’s a comment from a recent UT article on the demise of this site:

“ I remember that lot (7th/Market) Former home of Ed Scholder’s used cars. Unpaved, bumpy dirt lot. I bought a 1950 Wills Jeepster from him and his son on that lot in the 1980s. A fine car. The city put him out of business because of the hookers doing business in the cars. Since mine was a convertible, it probably saw the most action of all. Convertibles are so romantic. Ed told the city that the hooking had stopped, but the guy from the Giant Photo shop across the street took recent photos and showed them at the Planning Commission meeting. He used to really tick off his neighbors in Crown Point, where he parked his excess inventory on the street. Or at least that is how I remember it.”

Let’s face it, seventh and market is definitely a storied piece of San Diego, will be extremely interesting to see what cast of characters take on the next chapter :)

HurricaneHugo Feb 3, 2023 1:24 AM

Delete

Streamliner Feb 3, 2023 5:18 PM

^ I don't know why, but those pics aren't showing up for me

HurricaneHugo Feb 6, 2023 8:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Streamliner (Post 9856647)
^ I don't know why, but those pics aren't showing up for me

Tried to take a shortcut and just link from my Google Photos.

Building next to the Courthouse:
https://i.imgur.com/sLEHXjy.jpg

8th & Broadway:
https://i.imgur.com/9Fu6rVT.jpg

3 of my 5 favorite buildings:
https://i.imgur.com/b6XjcTO.jpg

negentropic behavior Feb 7, 2023 8:47 PM

RADD new pics
 
Took some pictures of the RADD development during a jog the other day, a few of the shorter buildings have extensive curtain wall installations already (one looks nearly complete).

Overall the development looks pretty stubby, but at least one building is taller that the Navy headquarters. If/when Seaport Village is replaced by the aquarium, 500 ft observation tower, new hotels, etc. I think we'll appreciate the variety of building heights.

Fingers crossed that my images are showing up below

https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...phGtkLgB3jqXkY
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...B4mQLHikJAvf8h
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...9eGAleEPAtzLvy
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...cnMPQLrYP2UdYf
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...W0SHTjPc_euBXY
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...lqTH-qt_Al_YtZ
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...YSFdkDu9ntrQPF
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...yGxifGFP8s2jmm

https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...phGtkLgB3jqXkY
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ivKXMXr47npuPCmg9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Xe35qFTWEfBXZ2k8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xeRZbNYJfZNbscYK6
https://photos.app.goo.gl/h9U1xgtCNqqqANqY6
https://photos.app.goo.gl/dCy57XpRRsodEmXR9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/UTF2Hp52UpjRmfWC8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/aePruhbG1cjteDvJ6

BuildSanDiego Feb 7, 2023 9:23 PM

Pics
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by negentropic behavior (Post 9859831)
Took some pictures of the RADD development during a jog the other day, a few of the shorter buildings have extensive curtain wall installations already (one looks nearly complete).

Overall the development looks pretty stubby, but at least one building is taller that the Navy headquarters. If/when Seaport Village is replaced by the aquarium, 500 ft observation tower, new hotels, etc. I think we'll appreciate the variety of building heights.

Fingers crossed that my images are showing up below

https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...phGtkLgB3jqXkY
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...B4mQLHikJAvf8h
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...9eGAleEPAtzLvy
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...cnMPQLrYP2UdYf
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...W0SHTjPc_euBXY
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...lqTH-qt_Al_YtZ
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...YSFdkDu9ntrQPF
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...yGxifGFP8s2jmm

https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...phGtkLgB3jqXkY
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ivKXMXr47npuPCmg9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Xe35qFTWEfBXZ2k8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xeRZbNYJfZNbscYK6
https://photos.app.goo.gl/h9U1xgtCNqqqANqY6
https://photos.app.goo.gl/dCy57XpRRsodEmXR9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/UTF2Hp52UpjRmfWC8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/aePruhbG1cjteDvJ6

Sorry, pics don’t show.

Streamliner Feb 8, 2023 11:02 PM

Are there any updates on Bosa's partner tower to Pacific Gate? The one next to Santa Fe Depot? Also, any news on whatever will replace the Office Depot next to Pacific Gate? I am eager to see what ends up proposed there since those two plots will help define the skyline from the Bay.

HurricaneHugo Feb 9, 2023 7:08 AM

Anybody go to the public meeting on Midway Rising?

aekrid Feb 9, 2023 3:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Streamliner (Post 9860931)
Are there any updates on Bosa's partner tower to Pacific Gate? The one next to Santa Fe Depot? Also, any news on whatever will replace the Office Depot next to Pacific Gate? I am eager to see what ends up proposed there since those two plots will help define the skyline from the Bay.

Wouldn't be surprised if those are stalled. There's been very minimal activity at bosa's 8th and B project as of late.

Streamliner Feb 9, 2023 5:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HurricaneHugo (Post 9861277)
Anybody go to the public meeting on Midway Rising?

I didn't realize there was one. I would have liked to push for more density/height so the mission hills NIMBYs don't drown everyone else out.

mello Feb 9, 2023 6:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Streamliner (Post 9860931)
Are there any updates on Bosa's partner tower to Pacific Gate? The one next to Santa Fe Depot? Also, any news on whatever will replace the Office Depot next to Pacific Gate? I am eager to see what ends up proposed there since those two plots will help define the skyline from the Bay.

I called the corporate BOSA office in Vancouver pre covid in 2019 and asked what was up with the Partner to Pac Gate. The guy said they are waiting because they felt that wealthy Chinese buyers had dried up.... I thought that was more of a Vancouver thing. Rich people from Vegas, PHX, Dallas etc have units in Pac Gate you don't need Chinese or Russian Oligarch buyers... Then with all the funny money printed out of thin air in 20 and 21 so many rich people got waaaay richer so I don't understand why they aren't building there frankly it makes no sense.

Oh he also said they were waiting to see how the huge Manchester plan turned out, well its looking pretty good now that it is one of the worlds largest Biotech hubs :cheers:

JSW Feb 10, 2023 6:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aekrid (Post 9861407)
Wouldn't be surprised if those are stalled. There's been very minimal activity at bosa's 8th and B project as of late.

I have a view right over the pit on 8th and B- definitely stalled, but they do keep a presence on site. And actually, this week I've seen more activity with new material arriving, more workers banging around on something on the south side of the pit.

ArchGuy1 Feb 10, 2023 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by negentropic behavior (Post 9859831)
Took some pictures of the RADD development during a jog the other day, a few of the shorter buildings have extensive curtain wall installations already (one looks nearly complete).

Overall the development looks pretty stubby, but at least one building is taller that the Navy headquarters. If/when Seaport Village is replaced by the aquarium, 500 ft observation tower, new hotels, etc. I think we'll appreciate the variety of building heights.

Fingers crossed that my images are showing up below

https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...phGtkLgB3jqXkY
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...B4mQLHikJAvf8h
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...9eGAleEPAtzLvy
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...cnMPQLrYP2UdYf
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...W0SHTjPc_euBXY
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...lqTH-qt_Al_YtZ
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...YSFdkDu9ntrQPF
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...yGxifGFP8s2jmm

https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/...phGtkLgB3jqXkY
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ivKXMXr47npuPCmg9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Xe35qFTWEfBXZ2k8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xeRZbNYJfZNbscYK6
https://photos.app.goo.gl/h9U1xgtCNqqqANqY6
https://photos.app.goo.gl/dCy57XpRRsodEmXR9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/UTF2Hp52UpjRmfWC8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/aePruhbG1cjteDvJ6

There have been several design changes for the observation tower and why has it taken so long for construction to begin on this development after being proposed in 2016.


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