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-   -   The Toronto skyline has crossed a big threshold (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum//showthread.php?t=239457)

Steely Dan Jun 16, 2019 5:35 AM

The Toronto skyline has crossed a big threshold
 
According to SSP''s database, metro Toronto now has 100 buildings over 500' tall, including U/C towers.

There are only two other cities in the US/Canada that have reached that same mark: New York (300) and Chicago (123).

What makes Toronto's crossing of this threshold even more impressive is the fact that as recently as 2004, Toronto only had 11 500+ footers. That's an increase of 89 such towers in only 15 years!

Hot. Damn.


But Jacksonville's skyline is somehow still better. ;)

badrunner Jun 16, 2019 6:00 AM

Toronto hitting on all cylinders right now :cheers:

bobdreamz Jun 16, 2019 7:07 AM

I only found 83 for Toronto on this site by CTBUH though :

http://www.skyscrapercenter.com/comp...t=Show+Results

Still impressive though.

Doady Jun 16, 2019 8:32 AM

It's disappointing but thankfully there is a new premier og Ontario, Doug Ford, and so the province taken planning out of the hands of the City of Toronto and gotten rid all of those extremely strict limits on high-rise development the city once had. And not only that, the province has also taken away the ability for municipalities like Ontario to collect development charges. So without these barriers, developers will be finally be able to build a decent of amount of tall buildings in the city and not fall any further behind the rest of Canada and North America.

Nite Jun 16, 2019 9:46 AM

as for the causes of the skyscraper boom in and around Toronto here is my answer from most important to least important

1. GTHA green belt: it was established in 2005 and has effectively stopped sprawl and heavily promotes densification not just in Toronto but all the GTHA towns and cities

2. High population growth: has increased the demand for housing and in the GTHA. without sprawl, you can only build upwards

3. low-interest rates: interest rates in the lasts 20 years have been lower than ever before

4. Transportation: the current transportation network, both highways and transit are at capacity and so development beyond the green belt cannot depend on commuters for growth

5 Strong diversified economy: Toronto has an incredible diversified economy that prevents the region from experiencing a downturn and is creating jobs at a fast rate that it can absorb over 125,000 new residence a year. The new residence also create many jobs as well

if these conditions stay constant Toronto will be building more and taller buildings in the next decade more than ever before. 2019 is already looking to be a record year for construction with 200 highrises under construction.

Crawford Jun 16, 2019 1:29 PM

Toronto has a crapload of towers u/c. I'm there twice a year for work, and every visit, it's different. The problem is the average quality of architecture/urban planning is pretty bad, but the volume is incredible by NA standards.

isaidso Jun 16, 2019 8:27 PM

^^ Generally, urban planning policies are very good but agree about the quality of many of the new buildings. It's a common complaint. The culture is still very conservative, developers want to fatten their bottom line, and quality isn't what it was back in the 1980s (and before). That's a worldwide problem; it's not just Toronto. Go to a typical condo built in 1970 and a typical one built last year. There's a noticeable difference. Even brick facades aren't 'real' brick any more; they're brick panels a few cm thick.

It also bears mentioning that most of what goes up in places like Manhattan caters to the well heeled. Toronto is heading that way but still builds a lot of stuff for the masses. It's never going to be celebrated in a design magazine but it accomplishes something better imo. The goal is to provide a good home for everyone, not just the rich. It's one of the reasons the masses are flooding into Toronto and have been for decades (bring us your huddled masses, if you will). Stuff like this below, for instance, is mixed income/Community Housing.

Mixed Income Residential in downtown Toronto
https://timelapse.stealthmonitoring....ges/image1.jpg
Courtesy of stealth monitoring

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobdreamz (Post 8606834)
I only found 83 for Toronto on this site by CTBUH though :

http://www.skyscrapercenter.com/comp...t=Show+Results

Still impressive though.

Yes you get different numbers depending on which site you go to and whether you include Mississauga. Counting roof height, official height, pinnacle height, etc. changes the count a bit too. That said, the pace of construction seems to be the new normal. 83 or 100, the number will steadily spike higher. I wouldn't be surprised to see it over 200 such buildings by 2030. There are 82 buildings 500ft+ at the proposal stage.

BG918 Jun 16, 2019 9:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nite (Post 8606853)
as for the causes of the skyscraper boom in and around Toronto here is my answer from most important to least important

1. GTHA green belt: it was established in 2005 and has effectively stopped sprawl and heavily promotes densification not just in Toronto but all the GTHA towns and cities

2. High population growth: has increased the demand for housing and in the GTHA. without sprawl, you can only build upwards

3. low-interest rates: interest rates in the lasts 20 years have been lower than ever before

4. Transportation: the current transportation network, both highways and transit are at capacity and so development beyond the green belt cannot depend on commuters for growth

5 Strong diversified economy: Toronto has an incredible diversified economy that prevents the region from experiencing a downturn and is creating jobs at a fast rate that it can absorb over 125,000 new residence a year. The new residence also create many jobs as well

if these conditions stay constant Toronto will be building more and taller buildings in the next decade more than ever before. 2019 is already looking to be a record year for construction with 200 highrises under construction.

I'd be interested in how U.S. immigration laws affect the growth in large Canadian cities like Toronto and Vancouver. I personally know someone originally from India who was employed in the U.S. but couldn't get permanent residency due to the quota/lottery system so he moved to Canada and was granted it almost immediately.

badrunner Jun 16, 2019 9:53 PM

The Trump effect is real. Canada is going to be an increasing attractive alternative for prospective immigrants. If the US is entering into a period of more restrictive immigration policies then this can be expected to continue. So when Toronto finally surpasses Chicago you'll know who to blame :)

Nite Jun 16, 2019 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BG918 (Post 8607113)
I'd be interested in how U.S. immigration laws affect the growth in large Canadian cities like Toronto and Vancouver. I personally know someone originally from India who was employed in the U.S. but couldn't get permanent residency due to the quota/lottery system so he moved to Canada and was granted it almost immediately.

Nothing the US government does has an effect on the quantity or the location where immigrants settle in Canada. Ottawa and Quebec City set the targets each year and that's it

Doady Jun 16, 2019 10:42 PM

Prospective immigrants probably view Trump more favourably than the average American. I'm not sure USA and Canada always competing for the same immigrants.

I think if you look back at previous decades, there has always lots of high-rise construction in the Toronto area. The most high-rises built was in the 60s. Does today's high rise boom really match the 60s?

According to the SSP database, 503 high rise buildings were built in Toronto during the 1960s compared to 460 high rises built in the 2010s. So no, the current high rise boom does not match the 60s high rise boom.

The difference today compared to the 60s is the buildings are taller, but they are skinnier too so it's not necessarily a larger number of units being built. The units are also condominium apartments instead of rental apartments.

Innsertnamehere Jun 16, 2019 10:45 PM

While I'm sure US immigration policy is pushing application rates to Canada up, Canada is ultimately still in control of it's immigration policy and only allows as many immigrants in as it wants.

It just so happens that those numbers have been increasing significantly over the last couple of years under Trudeau.

Innsertnamehere Jun 16, 2019 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobdreamz (Post 8606834)
I only found 83 for Toronto on this site by CTBUH though :

http://www.skyscrapercenter.com/comp...t=Show+Results

Still impressive though.

This is likely Toronto only - Steely Dan is quoting the Metro area. Lots of suburban 500 footers in Toronto.

dc_denizen Jun 16, 2019 10:48 PM

And immigration to the US is around 1,000,000 per year.

Dallas, which is growing as fast as Toronto, completes 30,000 multi family units per year; but because demand is more tied in to local incomes and not global money flows, you get 7 story mid rise apartments instead of condo towers.

With lax money laundering laws, Canadian real estate will continue to be a safe haven for various global capital flows for the the foreseeable future. They pioneered this model with Vancouver, Toronto got into the game later and now even Montreal is seeing chinese investment, no questions asked...

Ant131531 Jun 16, 2019 10:59 PM

Toronto currently grows like a pre-WWII major American city. Dallas might have high metro growth, but it's city proper and inner core growth is very dissapointing.

isaidso Jun 16, 2019 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_denizen (Post 8607155)
And immigration to the US is around 1,000,000 per year.

Yes, it's still much higher than immigration to Canada. Canada's net international migration for 2017-2018 was 412,747. That said, immigration to Canada hit an all time high last year eclipsing the 400,810 that arrived in 1913; the previous high water mark.


https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/p...df?st=CeAKxRGU

Sun Belt Jun 16, 2019 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_denizen (Post 8607155)
And immigration to the US is around 1,000,000 per year.

Legal or Legal and Illegal?

Doady Jun 16, 2019 11:30 PM

Chinese money launderers are probably as responsible for Toronto's high rise boom today as they were for the city's bigger high rise boom in the 60s.

isaidso Jun 16, 2019 11:35 PM

^^ Agree. It's largely a Vancouver problem. Toronto does see a of wealth pour into it, in the same way as London, Sydney, and Zurich does, but these condos aren't sitting empty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by badrunner (Post 8607122)
The Trump effect is real. Canada is going to be an increasing attractive alternative for prospective immigrants. If the US is entering into a period of more restrictive immigration policies then this can be expected to continue. So when Toronto finally surpasses Chicago you'll know who to blame :)

You're being awfully dismissive of Toronto's accomplishments. When San Francisco, New York, or the US prospers its because of US ingenuity, hard work, policy, innovation, etc. Has it occurred to you that when Toronto, Vancouver, or Canada prospers it's because of Canadian ingenuity, hard work, policy, innovation, etc.?

I agree that having a dud like Trump helps Canada but Toronto (and Canada) would be booming with or without a Trump presidency.

Nite Jun 16, 2019 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere (Post 8607153)
This is likely Toronto only - Steely Dan is quoting the Metro area. Lots of suburban 500 footers in Toronto.

Dan is counting only the built and under construction in the city of Toronto on SSP. CTBUH doesn't count excavation as being under construction though

here are the numbers for the entire GTA

Toronto (including the CN Tower): 101
Mississauga: 5
Vaughan: 2


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