SkyscraperPage Forum

SkyscraperPage Forum (
-   General Development (
-   -   SAN FRANCISCO | Treasure Island / Sun Tower (

J Church Nov 9, 2005 8:05 PM

SAN FRANCISCO | Treasure Island / Sun Tower
i should probably wait to post this, as we don't have renderings yet or even very specific details. but a new redevelopment plan was announced yesterday for the island, which is in the center of san francisco bay midway between the city and oakland--and it has the potential to be one of the most innovative and exciting projects anywhere in the world.

some background:

the island is manmade, built for the 1939 world's fair and meant for conversion to an airport after--but then the war intervened, and it became a naval base. the base was closed several years ago, and for now, base housing is being rented out and a hangar is being leased for film production.

the island is 400 acres and is connected by causeway to the natural island of yerba buena, through which the bay bridge tunnels between its two spans: (very large image)

so, the plan. the idea is to create an essentially car-free, self-sustaining new town on the island. the plan would cluster 5,500 housing units in 140 acres around a new ferry landing. this would require a half-dozen or so towers, including an 'iconic' skyscraper that might be as tall as 50 stories--a 500-foot highrise in the middle of san francisco bay. the rest of the island could then be used for organic gardens, for wind turbines (the island can get quite windy), and for wetlands that could be used for wastewater treatment. an ecological--and urban--dream of a place.

how likely it this? it'll have to navigate a couple of years' worth of hearings and studies, there will no doubt be opposition, but the developer is ready to go.

Towers, farm seen for Treasure Island
Self-sustaining neighborhood of 5,500 residences proposed

John King, Chronicle Urban Design Writer
Tuesday, November 8, 2005

The would-be developers of Treasure Island in the middle of San Francisco Bay have unveiled a startling new image for the island -- one that includes 20 acres of farmland and at least six residential towers.

The plan calls for as many as 5,500 housing units on the west side of the island facing downtown San Francisco -- nearly twice the number previously proposed. Most of them would be within a 10-minute walk of a new ferry terminal across from the city's historic Ferry Building. And 260 of the island's 400 acres would become public open space, including a tidal marsh cut into the northeast corner of the manmade island.

The island's development team has changed as well. It is still led by Kenwood Investments, which includes political lobbyist Darius Anderson, allied with housing giant Lennar Corp. But this summer, Kenwood added another equity partner: Wilson Meany Sullivan, which led the much-praised restoration of the Ferry Building.

On Monday, Chris Meany of Wilson Meany Sullivan described the changes as part of a larger push for a project shaped by environmental principles.

"You need a large number of households to support the services that a community requires," Meany said.

This includes the estimated $20 million cost to cut a ferry terminal into the west side of the island, instead of using a pier on the Oakland side inherited from the U.S. Navy. "Moving the ferry to the west side unlocks the rest of the island," Meany said. "Suddenly, it's an extension of San Francisco rather than a distant part of the bay."

The scheme, which will be shown Wednesday to the Treasure Island Development Authority, still has details to be filled in. A slender residential tower is proposed at the ferry terminal, for instance, but no height is specified, other than it probably would be at least 40 stories. North of the terminal is a string of neighborhoods with parks with views of the city and several towers in the 15- to 20-story range -- but the exact layout and heights are being refined.

Development team members say they will present a full plan next month to the Treasure Island authority, a mayor-appointed body that manages the island. If San Francisco's Board of Supervisors gives initial approval next summer to an agreement outlining what can be built as well as the financial structure of the deal between the city and the developers, the next stage would be an environmental review and final development plan -- a process likely to take at least two years.

The new proposal responds to criticism from environmental activists that the prior plan was too suburban and car-reliant. The activists also argued that a self-contained residential neighborhood could not work with the 2,800 housing units envisioned by developers.

The changes also reflect a political reality: The redevelopment of Treasure Island has been bumpier than anyone predicted when the Navy transferred control of the former military base to San Francisco in 1997.

The authority created by Mayor Willie Brown awarded development rights to both Treasure and Yerba Buena islands in 2003 to Treasure Island Community Development, a team organized by Anderson, a prominent Democratic lobbyist who had raised money for past political campaigns of Brown and then-Gov. Gray Davis. Anderson since has held at least one fundraising event for Mayor Gavin Newsom.

More recently, management of the island took on aspects of a soap opera when Newsom appointed then-Supervisor Tony Hall to serve as the authority's executive director in 2004 -- and then watched approvingly as the board fired Hall last month after charges of financial mismanagement. Hall responded with claims that the island's developers were receiving a "sweetheart deal."

In this context, any proposal to increase the project's size could be attacked as a giveaway to well-connected developers. But Newsom administration officials say the island needs density to thrive. By comparison, there are few services available for the residents of the roughly 1,000 apartments that now exist.

"Treasure Island is a once-in-a-lifetime chance to embrace sustainability -- and sustainable in this context doesn't just mean organic farming or solar and wind power," said Michael Cohen, the mayor's director of base re-use and development. "It also means residents don't have to go back to San Francisco for everything -- and that requires a critical mass of people" to support shops as well as alternative forms of transportation such as the ferries.

The "green" aspects of the new proposal include features that, if approved and followed through on, would be rare in urban settings.

For example, the high winds that routinely buffet the island would be converted into assets by erecting rows of wind turbines on several stretches of the island. Behind each row of turbines -- designed so as not to harm passing birds -- trees would be planted to deflect breezes within residential areas.

The proposed 20 acres of organic farmland in the center of the island would function both as a food source and an educational opportunity. The amount of land could raise enough food for 2,000 people, as well as be a place to show inner-city youth how agriculture works.

Even the towers are proposed to be designed to minimize the street-level impact of wind and maximize that amount of sunlight that could be captured on photovoltaic systems integrated into buildings.

Not all details have changed from prior plans.

The proposal maintains a 100-foot-deep parkland along most of the bay, as required by the State Lands Commission, as well as shopping and restaurants and a conference center facing Yerba Buena Island. The 36-acre federally operated Job Corps facility to train youth would remain.

Also, 30 percent of all units would be required to be sold or rented at below-market prices.

Dean Macris, the city's planning director, was shown the proposal Friday.

"The basics are all good. The proof of the pudding will be the next stage," Macris said. "They need to create an experience on the island that is different enough to attract people from around the region."

Redesign of Treasure Island unveiled
Revised plans intended to be denser and ‘Green’

By Emily Fancher
Staff Writer

A revised vision for Treasure Island imagines an urban neighborhood with a handful of high-rise towers, hip restaurants and boutique hotels that is also a model for environmental sustainability with an organic farm, renewal energy and limited use of cars.

The bold new plan for the 400-acre former naval base unveiled Monday calls for more housing on less land — a stark difference from the more suburban plans originally proposed for the island. It’s also a dramatic contrast to the island’s current landscape dotted with aging, Navy-built housing, weed-strewn lots, and a drab wastewater treatment plant.

City officials are currently negotiating for the Navy to transfer roughly 450 acres on Treasure Island and Yerba Buena Island to The City for redevelopment. The Navy closed the base on the islands in 1993.

Together, the islands are often described as some of the best real estate in the world with commanding views of San Francisco and offer a blank slate for building where a new kind of “green” development can be imagined. The redevelopment plans for the islands released last year called for environmentally sustainable practices including using green building techniques, creating wetlands and harnessing solar energy.

The new plan released Monday proposes denser housing clustered around the ferry terminal transit hub and a potential doubling of housing to up 5500 units — a response to critics who argued the islands need be self-sufficient, with enough residents to support transit and vital services such as a grocery market. It also reflects the need for the development to be a regional destination that draws visitors to its parks, restaurants, stores, hotels and marina.

Howard Strassner of the Sierra Club’s San Francisco chapter said the old plan paid lip service to sustainability, but was essentially a suburban development. In a leap from suburban to urban, the revised proposal places 90 percent of the housing within a 10-minute walk of the ferry terminal to limit car use.

“The plan has been pretty radically reconceived in a positive way to really imagine a kind of utopian project,” said Adi Shamir, dean of undergraduate studies at California College of the Arts, who saw the plan last week.

But whether the revamped plan will satisfy the environmental community’s high hopes for the island remains to be seen.

The plan will be presented to the Treasure Island Development Authority board Wednesday and the public will continue to have a chance to weigh in over the coming months and years. Many details from final building heights to building designs are still in flux.

Though construction could begin by mid-2008, the project will likely take over a decade to complete.

“We’re very excited about what we’ve done,” said Jay Wallace, project manager for the developer. “This is a fabulous step.”

Newnan_Eric Nov 11, 2005 3:34 PM

It sounds as though they’ve taken into consideration a lot of the concepts put forward by UC-Berkley students in their design. There was an article in the Chronicle in June that discussed this. I have attached it below.

I’m glad that the student’s ideas are gaining traction. It validates what they are doing in their classwork. It reminds me of the biggest new thing we’ve got going on in Atlanta – the Beltline. This idea started from a Architecture graduate student’s thesis.

- - - - - - - - - -

If a green utopia on Treasure Island sounds far-fetched, dreamers have a plan

By John King - San Francisco Chronicle - Thursday, June 2, 2005

Right now, San Francisco has a rare chance to do something that's historic and audacious: create the world's first green urban neighborhood on our very own Treasure Island.

Instead of a windswept former naval base with poor access to the Bay Bridge, 403 human-made acres could be a community where 20,000 people live mostly automobile-free lives. Energy would be generated by windmills; shops and parks would be within walking distance. Downtown San Francisco would be a 10-minute ferry ride away.

Far-fetched? Absolutely, and a long shot as well. There's a developer in place, but there also are state regulations and well-intentioned constraints at every turn.

But if ever there were a time to dream, it's this week, when San Francisco plays host to the World Environment Conference, and the notion of green cities is high on the agenda. On Treasure Island, environmentalism and urbanism could fuse as never before -- a vibrant community that creates its own energy, treats its own waste and has a transit system so convenient that cars are superfluous.

And before you blanch at the thought of 20,000 or more people living where 1,400 now reside, consider this: Environmental activists are the ones pushing us all to think big.

"There's the opportunity and the necessity to develop Treasure Island in a way that exemplifies the idea of sustainable development," says Eve Bach of Arc Ecology, a San Francisco environmental group. "To support the kinds of services you need on an island requires a lot of people."

That's a far cry from the plan that has evolved in procedural fits and starts over the past decade.

The current scenario calls for 2,600 housing units in four new neighborhoods, with 200 more tucked into the wooded natural hills of Yerba Buena Island to the south. There'd be attached homes modeled on traditional San Francisco neighborhoods, modest towers near a new ferry terminal on the island's southeastern cove, even an "eco-village" with community gardens looking toward Berkeley.

As for open space, start with a 350-foot-wide park facing San Francisco and a 250-foot-wide counterpart looking toward the East Bay. Add ball fields as part of a recreational strip in the middle of the island. The finale: Treasure Island's northern 72 acres would be a "nature park" with ponds and wetlands to help treat the island's storm water as well as provide natural habitat.

Plus -- to pay for the above -- there'd be hotels and conference space and boutique shopping near the cove.

"Here's an incredible opportunity to present something of respite to the Bay Area -- parks and wetlands -- but also a place of vitality and life," says Karen Alschuler, a principal at SMWM, the planning firm working for Treasure Island Community Development, the developer selected by the city to convert the former naval base.

Give Alschuler and her team credit: It's a good plan as far as it goes, especially the efforts to make the open space a functioning part of the larger environment.

But it's not the stuff dreams are made of.

That's because every line of every drawing is shaded by pragmatic and political considerations. The cap on housing comes from a citizen advisory group that concluded work in 1996, the year before the U.S. Navy closed its base. The wide bands of parkland along the shore are a dictate of the State Lands Commission, which controls what is done on filled land along the bay.

There's also a chunk in the middle of the island that's off-limits to any change at all because it houses the Job Corps Center, a federal program that trains at-risk youth in fields such as restaurant work and the building trades.

Navigating all this favors endurance, not imagination. Developers study the checklist -- such as a legal agreement with the Board of Supervisors that could come this fall -- and steer clear of anything bold that might raise a red flag to potential opponents.

But sometimes bold is what's called for -- perhaps right here and perhaps right now.

What could be is glimpsed in a set of visions crafted by urban design students last semester at UC Berkeley's College of Environmental Design. Professor Elizabeth Macdonald led six teams through a study of Treasure Island, and then had them draw up plans for a community shaped by "ecologically responsible approaches to transportation, energy, water and waste disposal issues."

"There's timeliness -- decisions are being made that will be set in stone," Macdonald says. "Treasure Island offers a great opportunity to really create a showcase."

While the student plans differ in specifics, certain themes are as pervasive as the island's stiff afternoon winds.

Some feature lines of windmills to capture those gusts and put them to use. Most move the ferry terminal so that it faces downtown San Francisco; visibility is priceless. Street surfaces are designed to filter runoff into the ground, not into sewers.

More dramatically, the housing units don't include parking. Cars are kept off most of the island, allowing for narrow streets used by bicycles and the island's own shuttle system.

And here's the grand counterintuitive leap: The student schemes call for a population much larger than the 7,000 residents now envisioned. Not to give the developer a windfall, but to make everything else work.

Ferries and shuttles, for instance. Developers promise to make them convenient, but it's hard to build frequent service around day-trippers and a small population scattered across the island.

Or what about a place to shop? The official plan calls for a cluster of shops and residents in what it dubs Ferry Plaza Village. But that's at the southeast end of the island away from most of the residents -- and the development team concedes that the approved population isn't large enough to attract neighborhood-focused retailers.

"Once you start thinking about a car-free island, you start thinking about types of places that are needed so people don't need to leave -- a serious grocery store, for instance," Macdonald says.

Push the imagination further. If Treasure Island has the systems in place to handle its own energy, its own water and its own waste, suddenly a job corps there makes sense. Corps members could learn to operate the green infrastructure -- a possible ticket to more lucrative jobs than, say, learning how to prepare salads.

One official who has seen the student work is Mark Palmer, green building coordinator for the city's Department of the Environment. He's intrigued.

"The island really does need to have a density to support all the lifestyle features we'd like," Palmer says. "I hope we have an opportunity to reopen the density and population discussion, because it deserves another look. "

Yes, all this has a utopian glow. It can also be sniped at from a dozen directions. Won't the ferries cause pollution? Won't the windmills kill birds? Why not make the whole island a park?

Even this starry-eyed columnist is skeptical that an auto-free island could exist. It's hard to imagine thousands of households comfortable with the notion that a car is something you rent every month or two for a getaway to Big Sur.

But one thing I know for certain: The only credible way to ask people to give up automotive convenience is to surround them with everything they want.

Such as a good supermarket. Movie theaters. More than one restaurant to choose from when you don't feel like cooking after a day at work. All knit together so tightly that it's an enticing alternative to any big-city neighborhood you can name.

Arc Ecology's Bach, for instance, outlines a scenario where neighborhood life revolves around the link to the mainland.

"Imagine if the ferry terminal became the place to pick up mail, like the post office in Carmel," Bach says. "The place where you buy groceries, where you locate the drop-in childcare, where there's space for community activities ... you can build in all of these things."

Indeed you can. All you have to do is dream.
A plan crafted by UC Berkeley students shows a cluster of windmills on the island. Illustration by Justin Doull, Aditi Rao and Jeff Williams
A Treasure Island Community Development plan shows a central greensward, with a view of San Francisco. Illustration by Chris Grubbs courtesy of SMWM
Chronicle Graphic based on an illustration done by Conger Moss Guillard Landscape Architecture.

An island of treasures

Redevelopment plans for Treasure Island include 2,600 housing units, extensive open space, preservation of several former naval buildings and a visitor-oriented commercial district with hotels along the island's southern shore. While details of the plan are likely to be revised further at a community workshop on June 14, below is the current version.

Eco-village: 475 housing units, including lofts, would be designed on so- called green building principles around a central garden.

Westside Park: This low-rise neighborhood would contain 607 townhouses and flats in what developers call a "typical San Francisco fabric."

Cityside: These 646 units line up to face spectacular views of San Francisco, with the possibility of one or two mid-rise towers.

Clipper Cove: Another 646 units would be clustered near the proposed ferry terminal and might include the island's tallest buildings.

Ferry Landing Village: This area could include hotels, a conference center, and shopping areas similar to Fourth Street in Berkeley, along with a 400-slip marina.

North shore: This large open space would include wetlands that double as part of the island's water reclamation system.

Source: Treasure Island Community Development, LLC.

If a green utopia on Treasure Island sounds far-fetched, dreamers have a plan

J Church Nov 11, 2005 6:33 PM

^ beltline grew out of a class project? not bad.

Agent Orange Nov 23, 2005 5:10 AM

Very intriguing project, I hope this happens.

Then again, I'd always imagined that Treasure Island would serve as a magnificent location for legislative assembly buildings if California or the West Coast were to secede. Oh well, auto-free, high density, eco-friendly utopia works as well.

Raraavis Nov 23, 2005 7:56 PM

Sounds great, maybe I can qualify for one of the low cost units.

Car-free is an interesting concept considering the bay bridge runs thousands of cars over the island every day. I think you may need parking for residents but nobody should need cars to get around the island.

J Church Dec 15, 2005 7:04 PM

new model

It's got high-rises, it's got organic gardens and it just might be a model for cities everywhere
John King
Thursday, December 15, 2005

Whether or not it ever gets built, the most intriguing development proposal in America right now involves our very own Treasure Island.

It's got organic gardens and a 60-story tower, wind farms and glitzy hotels. Restaurants beckon beneath an enormous glass roof that doubles as a solar panel. You don't need a car because everything essential is within walking distance, including a ferry straight to downtown San Francisco.

And here's the most intriguing thing of all: This urban utopia is being pushed by one of the largest developers in the United States.

That's why I hope that as San Francisco examines what Lennar Corp. says it wants to do with this 393-acre artificial island from the 1930s, cynicism doesn't totally cloud the fact that we're being shown an unprecedented vision of urban growth -- one crafted in response to the Bay Area's odd blend of urbanity and environmentalism.

Yes, the revised plan trotted out last month -- followed by models and polished images this week -- packs an intense amount of development onto an island that few outsiders have visited since the Golden Gate International Exposition of the late '30s.

There'd be as many as 5,500 housing units on an island that now has 750 apartments built by the U.S. Navy before it closed a base there in 1997. There would be two hotels, a conference center and a commercial district near a proposed ferry terminal sliced into the west side of the island.

There also will be five residential towers near the ferry. The model includes a central high-rise twisting 60 stories into the air, though Anthony Flanagan, president of Lennar's urban division, stresses that everything being shown is conceptual: "What we're trying to define is the character of the community, not the specific architecture."

So far, this is pretty much what you'd expect from a developer involved in five other base conversions across the country, including Mare Island in Vallejo and San Francisco's Hunters Point Shipyard.

But look at the project's green wrapping.

The northeastern half of the island is treated, in the plan, as a landscaped world apart, a 120-acre swath with ball fields and marshes as well as conventional parkland and 20 acres reserved for organic farming.

The scheme has wind turbines along the shore, and streets mapped to deflect that wind. Towers would come with photovoltaic panels to generate electricity for the island; so would a glass canopy atop the open-air retail zone near the ferry.

Most ambitious of all, 90 percent of the housing is clustered within a 10-minute walk to the ferry. Developers would be required to subsidize ferry service from the day the units open -- say 2009 in the most optimistic scenario -- so that new residents wouldn't feel they need to own a car that can't force its way onto the Bay Bridge during rush hour anyway.

Why push sustainable notions to such an extent? Because Lennar and co-developer Kenwood Investments finally realized where they are.

The Bay Area is a region where many of us think we can have it all -- scenery to rival Yosemite and neighborhoods that make New York seem dull. Food grown by nearby farmers, and urban culture at its most cutting edge.

With that parochial perspective comes a sense of entitlement that says if developers want to do business here, they'd better pay attention to what we want. In this case, "we" are the environmental advocates and planning watchdogs who have spent years saying a site this unique deserves a unique future.

And they're absolutely right. If large-scale growth is allowed to replace the remnants of the military base that closed in 1997, it had better be special. Otherwise, let the island's 20 million cubic feet of black sand filter back into the bay from whence it came.

What Lennar and Kenwood sought to build until last month wasn't special at all; it was quasi-suburbia. It was fashioned to win approval by avoiding controversy, but it had no spark.

The new approach is a profound change, especially the $20 million ferry terminal: Lennar first wanted to use an existing pier that faces Oakland. And the shift in the development approach is a tribute to critics who lobbied for a better plan, rather than simply saying no.

None of which means that what is on the table should now be rubber-stamped.

Here are two examples of things that need to be looked at more. Seismic issues can't be glossed over, certainly if high-rise condos are supposed to be attached to submerged bedrock closest to Yerba Buena Island. And even if towers make sense, consider this: The central high-rise would be taller than the nearby towers of the Bay Bridge. Aesthetic rationale aside, should a private enclave take precedence over public monuments?

The new Treasure Island proposals need intense scrutiny during the next few months as more details are released, and before San Francisco's Board of Supervisors votes on whether to endorse the broad outlines of the plan. It might turn out that this shining Xanadu is pie in the sky.

But what we have now is a starting point, a fascinating attempt to strike a balance between environmental principles and big-city life. If the Bay Area can find a way to make it work, the entire nation will pay attention.

jsoto3 Dec 16, 2005 1:48 AM

Looking good!

Revised Land Use and Open Space Plan
Presented by Treasure Island Community Development

December 2005
Part 1 (PDF)
Part 2 (PDF)
Part 3 (PDF)
Part 4 (PDF)

D-nice Dec 16, 2005 10:04 PM

looks good, Use to live on the base housing out there best views of the prison and san fran, I thought that island was sinking?

phillyskyline Dec 20, 2005 5:01 PM

Interesting concept.... But if there is an emergency how are people living on the island going to get out if there are no cars?

J Church Dec 20, 2005 5:22 PM

d-nice, the island will need to be shored up.

phillyskyline, cars would be perfectly legal. there would just be less need for them.

that said:

your best line of defense in a disaster, as proven during the 1989 earthquake and 9/11. this is our new WTA system, now partly funded and very much in development.

brandonpdx Dec 22, 2005 1:09 AM

that is too cool.

one other famous resident of Treasure Island was the late Jim Morrison. He lived there as a kid when his dad was in the Navy.

navyweaxguy Mar 24, 2006 6:28 PM

I lived there also for a few months back in '94. This is an ambitious plan. I tell ya though... they would have to greatly improve the mass transit availability to the island. I remember waiting up to two hours for a bus over to San Fran...

The penthouse on that 40+ story res tower would have the #1 view of the skyline.

J Church Mar 24, 2006 7:20 PM

Ah, the 108. It's much more frequent now--every 15 mins peak, no worse than 45 mins in the middle of the night. But under the plan there'd be ferries every few minutes.

navyweaxguy Mar 24, 2006 7:59 PM

Very nice then... now if it was just a tad warmer in july/aug... :) Still couldn't take my heart away from home.. but very very cool.

J Church Mar 24, 2006 9:28 PM

Actually, the way they're dealing with the wind is clever--notice how the "east-west" streets are at a funky angle?

jamesinclair Mar 25, 2006 6:24 AM

Hadnt seen this before, very interesting.

Don B. Mar 25, 2006 3:04 PM

This is a cool and rare opportunity. I'd live there if I wouldn't freeze my balls off, especially if it is that windy.

Of course, I'd freeze anywhere in the Bay area, unless I were inland where it is hotter. :)


danvillain Apr 1, 2006 8:10 AM


Originally Posted by Don B.
Of course, I'd freeze anywhere in the Bay area, unless I were inland where it is hotter. :)

where, tracy? ;)

an excerpt from another piece on the TI plan, this one with a more critical take [for the full article--and some purty renderings--click the ellipsis below]:


> PLACE | SF 03 17 06
Morris Newman

Treasure Island has nearly every necessary feature to make it the most exciting new residential development in San Francisco. This 403-acre island just a few minutes north of the city's Ferry Terminal has superb views of both downtown San Francisco and the other bay islands. It has dozens of acres of greenfields and an environmentally sensitive coastline, to make it a regional eco-attraction. And the island, with its 125-acre companion,Yerbe Buena, are close enough to the city to become a self-contained, functional neighborhood.

And for a city in perpetual need of new housing, Treasure Island joins Mission Bay as San Francisco's two largest home-building opportunities.

What could be lacking? Start with a coherent urban design.


BTinSF Jun 12, 2006 4:42 PM


Originally Posted by navyweaxguy
I lived there also for a few months back in '94. This is an ambitious plan. I tell ya though... they would have to greatly improve the mass transit availability to the island. I remember waiting up to two hours for a bus over to San Fran...

They have improved it some already. When the Navy owned and ran the place it was served by AC Transit, the bus system in Alameda County (Oakland), by busses crossing the Bay Bridge on their way into SF. When SF took it over, direct service from Muni (SF Municipal Railway), by busses just going to and from the island, began and, since it's actually part of SF, that makes more sense and I think the service will be better.

However, the redevelopment plan includes extensive ferry service, including a new ferry dock, and the intention would be that ferries would be the primary transportation mode for getting to and from downtown.

BTinSF Jun 12, 2006 4:46 PM


Originally Posted by Don B.
This is a cool and rare opportunity. I'd live there if I wouldn't freeze my balls off, especially if it is that windy.

Of course, I'd freeze anywhere in the Bay area, unless I were inland where it is hotter. :)


You'd get used to it. I have lived in SF since 1982 but after I retired in 2001 I started spending the NoCal rainy season in Tucson. So now half the year I'm in SF, half in Tucson. I look forward to both: warm sunny winters in Arizona, cool, pleasant summers in NoCal. I can keep my windows open all the time in both. No need for heat or A/C in either. And it's fun to drive a motorcycle, scooter or to ride a bike in both.

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:43 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.