I would counter that Detroit is far more well known than Minneapolis outside of the Midwest. If you ask anyone who isn't from the Midwest to name two cities in the Midwest, they would probably say Chicago first, and Detroit second.

i would go for that, detroit is more internationally known, specifically. culturally, since world war II there's no question that detroit outstrips the twin cities in influence in my mind (and probably most people).

also, for most of that time, because of the auto industry and the associated auto parts mfg networks detroit far outstripped the twin cities in economic influence in the midwest. as an example...today, there are zero automaker facilities in st. louis and st. louis county. however, i read that at one time only st. louis was behind detroit in auto mfg (when the corvette was made here, all the carburetors, TRW engine component plants, however many assembly plants were here...), and so the connections with detroit were huge.

i work for an environmental consultant and have auto mfg/related clients and at a recent facility that was a former parts factory in st. louis county, in one corner of an office was a 3 ft tall pile of TWA ticket stubs from the 80s for flights between STL and DTW between overturned file cabinets.

I have a mixed opinion on the Colorado Springs reference. I can understand how an outside perspective, or just a Denver perspective, might produce the opinion that the Springs is a second city due to how different the economic drivers and political climate are. However, after living in both Denver and the Springs, I am of the opinion that the Springs is Denver's biggest suburb and not anywhere close to being able to stand alone as it's own city.

The Springs has basically no suburb network of it's own, the largest being Fountain at roughly 35k people. Outside of the DoD and the private sector companies like NG/Boeing/GD it supports, there's no other significant independent economic drivers compared to other peer cities. Even though the Springs has significant tourism, Denver still is the main tourism center in Colorado and provides tourism transfers down to the Springs. A large portion of the Springs population growth in the past 10 years has been driven by commuters to jobs in Denver's traditional south suburbs in work centers like the Tech Center and Greenwood Village.

I think the main factor preventing the Springs from being viewed as any other Denver suburb is the geographical Palmer Divide. Douglas County's aggressive development of Castle Rock and keeping ranch open space in the 15-mile stretch between Castle Rock and Monument has helped prevent a seamless sprawl connecting the south suburbs to the Springs. As the public transportation options become more effective in the next 10 years, I would bet the demographics of commuters will become undeniably linked to the point that the Springs MSA will officially fall within the Denver CSA. I have the same opinion on Ft Collins MSA.

Of course it has suburbs. Whether the're outside the city limits or not is irrelevant.

But it does seem to have a close connection to Denver. Sort of like Tacoma but a an extra 20 miles away....in some ways its own city and in other ways reliant on the bigger neighbor.

I've spent the last year and a half as a truck driver based in Denver. I'm local (which means I get paid by the hour and go home every night) but my runs take me as far out as 325 miles. I've gotten to know the state I grew up in like the back of my hand. I know every pass; I know every town.

Colorado is much different than how I pictured it during all the years I spent as a Denverite that only occasionally left the city for a camping trip, or to ski, or to see the great sand dunes, or whatever. Much different. There are towns that are bigger than I thought they were -- or smaller. There are places I thought were very far from each other since it takes several hours to get from one to the other, but it turns out they're only dozens of miles apart -- but on the opposite side of a mountain range. I know all the traffic patterns. I know where development is booming and where it's not. (Speaking of which, I do flatbed, so I move a lot of brick and lumber.) I know where development is contiguous, or becoming contiguous, or where there are still gaps. I know the relationships towns have with neighboring towns. I know the "suburbs" of The Springs and the "suburbs" of Ft Collins.

Anyway, I agree with every word of your post.

Mhays you're right the Springs has suburbs, but nothing like other stand alone metro areas of peer cities it's size (Tucson, Raleigh, Virginia Beach). It's too dependent upon Denver and just close enough geographically to have developed into it's own significant metro area. In the peer example of Tucson, you see the geographical separation with Phoenix being just far enough that Tucson has a significant suburb network of it's own. Colorado Springs however is the 42nd largest city in the US but only the 79th largest metro area by population. These are the only suburbs in the Springs MSA above 10k people in 2012.

Security-Widefield: 32,882
Fountain: 26,882
Cimarron Hills: 16,161
Fort Carson: 13,813
Black Forest: 13,116

I'm not even sure I'd consider Tucson a second city in Arizona other than it literally being the second largest city and metro in the state. Phoenix and its surrounding suburbs (Mesa, Tempe, Scottsdale, Glendale, etc) are so dominant politically that everything outside of Maricopa County is an afterthought.

I say this as someone who has lived in Arizona but outside of The Valley's sphere of influence for almost a decade.

China has so many cities that it's basically impossible to pick a 'second city'. Rather, in China they use an unofficial city tier list.

First Tier: Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou, Shenzhen
Second Tier: Nanjing, Tianjin, Wuhan, Chongqing, Hangzhou, Suzhou, Xi'an, etc (i.e. most cities 8.5 million + in population that aren't in the first tier, many of which are either special cities (Chongqing and Tianjin) or provincial capitals (Nanjing, Wuhan, Xi'an, Hangzhou, etc)).

And then there are smaller cities in tiers three and four.

I think you missed his point. The city of Colorado Springs' municipal boundaries stretch far beyond the edge of suburbia in places - so when a new, sprawly, suburban, subdivision is developed out at the edge of suburbia, it's often technically within the city limits of Colorado Springs, even though it's "the suburbs". Other cities (like Denver) are land-locked by suburbs, and can't grow outward so they eventually end up with a smaller proportion of the metro's population.

Colorado Springs: 464,474
Miami: 463,347

Colorado Springs Metro: 723,878
Miami Metro: 6,828,241

Tucson, Raleigh and Virginia Beach are not peer cities of Colorado Springs. They're bigger, higher-profile towns.

(So I guess I don't agree with "every word" of your first post like I originally stated, but I do agree with your main point.)

Tucson is a classic second city. It's big enough to be the clear second-most influential city in the state, but is easily outweighed by the biggest city. Look at Porto in Portugal, Thessaoloniki in Greece, and Akureyri in Iceland. All are the second-most influential cities in their countries, but are far outshadowed by the largest/capital cities.

Chongqing second tier? Is that because there's little political power there? All the corporate glitz in Shenzhen and Shanghai?

I live (half the year) in a suburb of Tucson and Phoenix might as well be on Mars. It's a 2hr (with traffic) drive away through a lot of desert.

Politically and socially the two are very different also. Tucson is like a big college town, being dominated by the U. of AZ, which makes it politically blue-ish while Phoenix is crimson.

Ottawa is definitely Ontario's second city next to the Toronto juggernaut.
Having stated that, Ottawa may be unique in comparison to other second cities in that it is the federal capital, so having that status may put a little more weight on that second city designation in comparison to other second cities.

Chongqing, which is basically a human equivalent of an anthill, is definitely 2nd tier; despite it being a city-state of its own, the nearby Chengdu has more political clout.

----------

As for the US, New York is without a doubt the second city to Jacksonville, FL.

I’m a xennial (cringe) and for us Montreal was always “the city” in Canada. But probably a lot of that has to do with being from Boston.

Osaka is Japan’s second city in spirit (and first city in stomach, as they say), but Yokohama actually has about 1.1 million more residents than Osaka does at this point. Yokohama is huge - nearly 4 million people in the same land area as New Orleans or San Jose.

I'm old enough to remember when Montreal was "thee" premiere city in Canada (even Anglo Canada), with Toronto being a close second. .The successful Expo 67 (slightly before my time), having a MLB before Toronto, the 76 Olympics and the great Habs dynasties of the 70's had everything to do with that..Then, of course the flip flop in the mid 70's happened. Toronto is now well ahead both in Canada (overall) and at the world stage.

I guess we can see this potentially happen in Australia.

on a micro level, it would be like Cincinnati taking over Columbus or Cleveland maybe?

LOL People kill me with trying to tell people of a particular city how they should identify THEMSELVES...

If people WHO LIVE IN DETROIT claim Windsor, ON as part of Detroit, then it's part of Detroit REGARDLESS of what someone online says from hundreds of miles away.


That's like the same NON-Chicagoans who are set to convince the world that Chicago is some sort of wanna-be NYC that somehow got lost in the Midwest, rather than the Midwest juggernaut that it is only because parts of the Loop may resemble Manhattan. NO ONE actually from Chicago thinks about New York because as far as Chicago is concerned, Chicago is the center of the universe that is Chicagoland.

Also like the people trying to tell people in Dallas or Houston that they're not in the south despite the fact that EVERY SINGLE NATIVE I've of both of those metropolitan regions IDENTIFY THEMSELVES as Southerners.


In other words, quit trying to tell people with which region they should identify...

Same for us in New York. As a kid, Montreal always seem edge out Toronto as Canada's premier city. There was a lot more focus on it.

yes, montreal was perceived as canada's alpha city even long after it was in fact so.

one of the things that probably aided that perception lag was montreal's much more exotic french allure.

to many americans, toronto was like any other great lakes city, just without the obligatory big black ghetto full of violence and despair, whereas montreal was seen as a truly foreign city right on our nation's doorstep.