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The state built the roads anyways AND stopped all the other stuff. The "we didn't build it (roads) and they came anyways" makes it sound like the only thing Austin did was petulantly decide not to build a few sorely needed roadways, which is the farthest thing from the truth. Austin added more freeway lane-miles in the 1990s, I hear, than any other city of its size in the country. Those decisions were made in the 1980s. |
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I think the major difference between the first generation and the second generation of highway building is that the 2nd generation is more speculative - building roads in the middle of farmland, connecting dots where dots were previously unconnected. At least with the 1980's and 90's freeways, it was mostly upgrading existing road... |
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I'm unable to come up with the right set of terms to google the exact claim, but it was being made during the light-rail election of 2000. The link above is close, though. |
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Page 20. Seems unlikely that Phoenix built "3 to 4 times the freeway" (lane-miles) that Austin did in the 1990s if they're still so far behind. Possibly you confused arterial lane-miles, for which Phoenix is always recognized as one of the leaders? |
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I just checked the map and the freeways in question are the 101 loop road, AKA Pima Fwy, and the 51 Freeway. That's a lot of miles. Also the 202 FWyin the southern part of the Valley of the Sun, aka greater Phx.
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http://mobility.tamu.edu/ums/congestion_data/tables/phoenix.pdf[/url] |
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I wish I could remember the exact language of the claim - it would make it much simpler to settle this. Sorry; it's been way too long since then. |
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To that end, I-10 and I-17 (if I've got those numbers right) were and are the main arteries in Phoenix, and they have not been substantially developed in the last few decades, ergo my suspicion is that the strain on those roads has increased. This is, of course, my interpretation of the situation. |
I would rather have Austin use a special tax to build freeways rather than Toll Roads any day... Why can't the government here do what Phoenix did?
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The gas tax would be OK IF there was a minimum funding mechanism in place like the federal gas tax has (i.e. Austin guaranteed to receive no less than 90% in spending for the taxes their drivers pay). But there isn't - urban drivers' gas taxes go to places like Round Rock and the like. If you want sustainable urban development, tolls are a great start - they're like bus fares in that the connection is immediate to the facility/service in a way that gas taxes, and especially the non-user-fees like property and sales taxes aren't. |
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I betcha anything that if voters were given a choice, especially if they understood that the alternative was toll roads, they would vote overwhelmingly for the special tax. We have never been given that choice. |
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Plus it seems to keep the roads in better condition and better flowing than traditional "free" roads. I've seen the model work in Houston - it works, and it works well. You pop on a toll road, and it is amazing the condition of the vehicles on the road. In general, the vehicles seem to be reasonably maintained. So I would also argue that toll roads are safer due to better maintained vehicles on them and less congestion. |
i do agree that there is no need for tolls austin can pay for the roads other ways. i have seen studies where just one extra lane on a highway can decrease traffic a good percentage. no i do not have all the number or the link but i am sure i can find one. the roads down here do not need to be maintained that much due to the fact that there are not many big temp shift like up north. up north we had to repair or replace roads every few year and we still had money to build new roads and improve existing roads. phoenix should not be compared to Austin its more like Dallas or Houston. and trying to say that tolls are a good way to pay for roads cause only the people that use them pay for the roads? that maybe somewhat true but its also true that the toll roads force you to pay for them no matter if you want to or not cause there are and will not be alternatives to taking them if watson and his cronies get their way. and have you driven on the frontage roads to the toll raods? every few miles SURPRISE you are forced on the toll road and have to pay the toll
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