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-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

manny_santos Oct 6, 2022 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9753256)
Pacific Coliseum (16,281)
2008-2009: 8,470
2009-2010: 7,117
2010-2011: 7,450
2011-2012: 6,944
2012-2013: 7,205
2013-2014: 6,266
2014-2015: 5,815
2015-2016: 5,169

Langley Events Centre (5,276)
2016-2017: 3,848
2017-2018: 3,383
2018-2019: 3,826
2019-2020: 3,920
2021-2022: 2,843
2022-2023: 3,166

Worth pointing out that the Canucks purchased the NLL Vancouver Warriors in 2018, moving them from Langley to Rogers Arena shortly after the Giants moved in the opposite direction. The CPL will be starting up in Langley in the spring.

I’m used to the attendance numbers the London Knights get. These numbers are even lower than I predicted.

thurmas Oct 6, 2022 11:48 PM

With all that's happened i am not sure the world juniors tournament will recover from this i don't think it will ever be like it was in the 2000s selling out like gangbusters probably best it went back to Europe for a few years and northern u.s states

JHikka Oct 6, 2022 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9753861)
With all that's happened i am not sure the world juniors tournament will recover from this i don't think it will ever be like it was in the 2000s selling out like gangbusters probably best it went back to Europe for a few years and northern u.s states

The rumour is that the 2025/2026 World Juniors U20s will be in Las Vegas. Next year it's in Gothenburg.

thurmas Oct 6, 2022 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9753865)
The rumour is that the 2025/2026 World Juniors U20s will be in Las Vegas. Next year it's in Gothenburg.

Tons of snowbirds in Vegas would do well there

esquire Oct 7, 2022 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9753871)
Tons of snowbirds in Vegas would do well there

Same reason why so many curling events are held there. Seems to me that USA Hockey tends to pick WJHC locations that are extremely convenient to Canadian fans, e.g. Buffalo, Grand Forks, now Vegas.

Djeffery Oct 7, 2022 12:28 AM

Vegas for Christmas and New Years? Sign me up.

thurmas Oct 7, 2022 12:33 AM

I would say Vegas is # 1 vacation destination for most people from Alberta Saskatchewan and Manitoba every year at work thats where tons of my colleagues go for vacation same at the gym or when I go to bombers games ect...

esquire Oct 7, 2022 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9753592)
I guess I need to restate what i've suggested. The CHL has no relevancy in Canada's major centres and has been relegated to its suburbs and smaller centres exclusively. This is partly due to HC's negligence and partly down to the sport just naturally becoming more appealing to suburbanites in general as the inner-city lower classes are priced out of both playing hockey and attending games.

NHL teams still do well but i'm not convinced that that support is as directly supportive of hockey as much as it is supportive of the brands of those teams or league. There's no real way to really gauge this and others are free to question this as much as they like, but I think you'll find more actual 'hockey fans' at CHL games than at NHL games, particularly those in the larger centres like Toronto. It's more NHL the Product rather than Hockey the Sport, if that makes sense. This is mostly conjecture on my behalf but it explains the wide gap between Canadians coming out for NHL hockey but not for CHL, women's, or any other various kinds at different levels. This works out fine for the NHL (money is money) but does a lot of damage to the sport at the grassroots level.

When I talk about the relevancy of a sport in a market i'm mostly referring to sports as they pertain to themselves. That is to say, are the Leafs more or less relevant today in Toronto than they were in 1992? How about in specific areas like Downtown? Oshawa? Markham? If a market is a pie chart calculated to 100 what would the Leafs have taken up thirty years ago as opposed to today? (This sort of conversation is especially relevant to the Argos, whose popularity diminished with the introduce of more and more professional sports teams to Toronto over the decades). For the CHL, they're less relevant in these markets today than ever before simply by virtue of not having any presence in these markets (an argument over whether or not Langley qualifies as Vancouver or Mississauga as Toronto), offset in part by continued relevance in growing mid-sized markets.

I'm not saying that hockey is no longer relevant in Canada - far from the truth as evidenced by just about anything - but if we're trying to trend these sorts of things out and gauge interest in various bodies then I think it's obvious that hockey is losing ground to sports that are quickly catching up to it in the general cachet of Canadian sports interest. Hockey in Canada is losing ground to hockey in the US and with other sports in Canada, so it remains to be seen how much it can, or will, be squeezed in the coming years.

I think the best indicator of the difference in mindset between the NCAA and the CHL is in their national championships - where the NCAA has been holding its Frozen Four events at NHL arenas since the mid-1990s, whereas the CHL has stuck with smaller arenas in smaller markets. If the CHL were perhaps a little daring and willing to take a risk then they could expand their tournament and move it into an NHL arena for a week or so, contained to whatever league is hosting it on that cycle. An eight-team knockout Memorial Cup at the Bell Centre sounds more appealing than their round-robin and knockout formula in Blainville, IMO. It's a change like that that can get the CHL back into major cities and back into more relevancy in the mainstream outside of their mid-sized and small markets. As the Frozen Four travels to Tampa Bay and Las Vegas in the coming years the Memorial Cup will surely be off to Kamloops, Sudbury, and Rimouski...

I'm sure the CHL team owners would love to have the Memorial Cup be on the same level as the WJHC with sold out crowds and steep ticket prices in big arenas. But it hasn't worked out that way. However, from my perspective as a fan, though, I will say that the fact that the Memorial Cup is held in places like Brandon is a feature, not a bug. I miss the days when the WJHC was held in smaller locales... what have we really gotten from big-budget WJHCs played in Toronto and Edmonton pulling in piles of money? More money for Hockey Canada slush funds to buy the silence of abuse victims? Some more diamonds in the championship rings of board members? I'm being facetious, but I'm not sure that the game has really benefitted in a visible way from all that extra money.

At the end of the day the CHL is a developmental league, not unlike minor league baseball. It does best in smaller markets, the Peterboroughs and Prince Georges of the world. Places like downtown Toronto have the Leafs and other flashy teams, and I don't see junior hockey really competing with that. Even in the old days junior hockey wasn't especially well supported in large markets with pro teams. It was always kind of a revolving door of junior teams playing in front of sparse crowds in those places. Maybe if Hockey Canada had some sort of stroke of marketing genius they might have figured out how to sell it as a premium product and draw big crowds. But even though they didn't, it's still clearly a viable product that caters to a bit of a niche audience in smaller places.

esquire Oct 7, 2022 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9753909)
I would say Vegas is # 1 vacation destination for most people from Alberta Saskatchewan and Manitoba every year at work thats where tons of my colleagues go for vacation same at the gym or when I go to bombers games ect...

Easily accessible by air from just about any Canadian city of a certain size too.

thurmas Oct 7, 2022 10:29 PM

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canad...600ae165a683a9

‘Shame to the sport’: IIHF urged to suspend Hockey Canada


The International Ice Hockey Federation has been asked to suspend Hockey Canada as uproar grows over the national sport body’s handling of sexual abuse allegations.

In a letter dated Oct. 5, the North American division of the World Association of Ice Hockey Players Union (WAIPU), said Hockey Canada is in breach of IIHF bylaws, calling for the international federation to take immediate action.

“Considering the alarming events that have come to light globally since May 3, 2022, not limited to numerous sexual assaults over decades and the alleged misappropriation of funds from the Canadian trust funds, it is imperative that the IIHF take action,” Sandra Slater, president of WAIPU North America, said in the letter shared with Global News Friday.

WAIPU also pressed that a new National Sport Organization (NSO) application be received from Canada.

“We call now for the IIHF to take action according to the IIHF bylaws. Hockey Canada has brought shame to the sport of hockey not only in Canada but globally.”

Hockey Canada has been under intense scrutiny since this spring over its mishandling of alleged sexual assaults by players, including two alleged incidents from 2003 and 2018.

The disgraced national body has seen sponsors jump ship and three provincial organizations publicly speak out this week alone.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau even floated the idea of creating a new governing body for the sport.

The organization initially came under fire in May when it was revealed an undisclosed settlement had been paid to a woman who alleged in a $3.55-million lawsuit that she was sexually assaulted by eight players — including members of the country's world junior team — after a 2018 gala in London, Ont.

The allegations have not been proven in court.

The federal government froze its funding in the immediate aftermath, while a number of sponsors followed suit.

In recent days, Telus, Tim Hortons, Canadian Tire, Sobeys, Scotiabank and Esso have all cut ties with Hockey Canada for the upcoming 2022-23 season.

Halifax Mayor Mike Savage and Moncton Mayor Dawn Arnold said they're "deeply concerned about Hockey Canada's lack of judgement and professionalism," in a joint statement released Friday.

The mayors say they are looking for "meaningful change" within the organization before the world junior championships take place in their cities.

"As mayors we have discussed our growing concerns as the Hockey Canada situation has unfolded and we believe accountability is paramount," the statement said, noting further discussions will take place with council colleagues and provincial hosting partners.

Hockey Alberta announced in a statement Friday morning that it won’t withhold funding from the national body, however, senior manager of communications Brad Lyon said it isn’t completely out of the question.

New Brunswick Premier Blaine Higgs said cutting ties with the world junior hockey event is also not off the table and that he's "fully aligned" with Nova Scotia's decision to monitor Hockey Canada's response to the controversy before hosting the tournament.

Hockey Canada's summer of ugly headlines continued with the revelation of a fund partly maintained by minor hockey registration fees to pay for uninsured liabilities, including sexual assault and abuse claims. Halifax police were also asked to investigate an alleged sexual assault by members of the 2003 junior men's team.

Hockey Canada officials testified on Parliament Hill in July that the organization had paid out $7.6 million in nine settlements related to sexual assault and abuse claims since 1989. That figure didn't include this year's payout to the London plaintiff.

Hockey Canada responded by releasing an action plan to address safe sport issues and has appointed former Supreme Court justice Thomas Cromwell to conduct a governance review.

In a heated committee meeting on Tuesday, MPs pressed Hockey Canada officials for answers on the organization’s handling of sexual assault.

Former chair Michael Brind’Amour, who resigned in August, and his successor, interim chair Andrea Skinner, were questioned while appearing before the standing committee on Canadian heritage in Ottawa.

They both defended the national sport body’s handling of sexual abuse allegations dating back to 2018, saying appropriate steps were taken despite widespread criticism.

-- with files from The Canadian Press.

thurmas Oct 10, 2022 12:42 AM

Roger Goodell hinted in his London press conference today that London could host not one but 2 NFL teams and that if it were to happen it would likely be tied in creating a whole European division. I think this announcement and the amount of games in the UK the past few years now proves the NFL in Toronto dream is likely dead for many reasons we already know. Why the nhl is so tepid in growing its base in Europe is beyond me opportunity wasted on bettmans part.

jonny24 Oct 11, 2022 2:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9753592)

It's more NHL the Product rather than Hockey the Sport, if that makes sense. This is mostly conjecture on my behalf but it explains the wide gap between Canadians coming out for NHL hockey but not for CHL, women's, or any other various kinds at different levels. This works out fine for the NHL (money is money) but does a lot of damage to the sport at the grassroots level.

That makes total sense to me, and about sums up what I think has happened in football as well. People are "NFL Fans", not "football fans" and the CFL struggles because of that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN (Post 9753745)
I sometimes wonder having one or two teams as part of US dominated leagues (including NHL) has hurt Canadian domestic leagues development and acceptance by a wider domestic audience. And as a result there are less positions for Canadians to play professional in their country.
Will the idea of having one or two Canadian teams in the US dominated woman’s professional soccer league help or hinder the establishment of a Canadian domestic woman’s professional soccer league.

Absolutely. There's no other reason why we couldn't be Australia. They have 10 million people less than us, but have 18 professional AFL teams, 17 professional NRL teams (plus there's one in NZ), 5 pro Super Rugby teams, I think 12 pro A-league soccer teams, 8 pro cricket teams, I think pro basketball too, plus managing all the more one-off event like horse racing, car racing, tennis, etc.

But instead of leagues building out and developing over the whole country, the biggest cities get pulled to the US, leaving the rest of the country well short of critical mass to become what they could be otherwise. Things are changing, the CPL and CEBL being the best examples but they are still very "minor-league" and nowhere close to the American counterparts. Now I'd argue that the Raptors actually created a lot of the basketball awareness and fandom that exists, rather than taking away anything that was already there.

Acajack Oct 11, 2022 2:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9756129)
Roger Goodell hinted in his London press conference today that London could host not one but 2 NFL teams and that if it were to happen it would likely be tied in creating a whole European division. I think this announcement and the amount of games in the UK the past few years now proves the NFL in Toronto dream is likely dead for many reasons we already know. Why the nhl is so tepid in growing its base in Europe is beyond me opportunity wasted on bettmans part.

I don't think that's necessarily true, even if I also feel the NFL is pretty unlikely to come to Toronto regardless.

The NFL essentially views Toronto (and Canada) as almost part of the American domestic market, not as some foreign market still be conquered.

They had us at "hello".

Acajack Oct 11, 2022 2:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonny24 (Post 9757032)
That makes total sense to me, and about sums up what I think has happened in football as well. People are "NFL Fans", not "football fans" and the CFL struggles because of that.

The Americans are noticeably better (sic) than us at this. Not just for football, but for many sports.

That's why you see large crowds for high school football in Texas, for example.

Acajack Oct 11, 2022 3:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonny24 (Post 9757032)

Absolutely. There's no other reason why we couldn't be Australia. They have 10 million people less than us, but have 18 professional AFL teams, 17 professional NRL teams (plus there's one in NZ), 5 pro Super Rugby teams, I think 12 pro A-league soccer teams, 8 pro cricket teams, I think pro basketball too, plus managing all the more one-off event like horse racing, car racing, tennis, etc.

But instead of leagues building out and developing over the whole country, the biggest cities get pulled to the US, leaving the rest of the country well short of critical mass to become what they could be otherwise. Things are changing, the CPL and CEBL being the best examples but they are still very "minor-league" and nowhere close to the American counterparts. Now I'd argue that the Raptors actually created a lot of the basketball awareness and fandom that exists, rather than taking away anything that was already there.

While I think this was a possibility in the past and that we could have been more like Australia, I think that ship has sailed and won't be coming back into port.

Australians are also more of a sporting nation (both as participants and spectators) so there is also that.

I applaud the CPL and CEBL but we've seen these types of Canadian leagues in various sports in the past and they have almost all failed. Hopefully these guys will be the exceptions. I'd caution against being too optimistic.

MonctonRad Oct 11, 2022 3:06 PM

The Moncton Wildcats of the QMJHL has gone all out, purchasing an organ for home games, and hiring a professional organist to play the beast.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/resized.ima...gan-4456_0.jpg

Apparently the organ was purchased from the same manufacturer who supplied the organ to the Detroit Red Wings, and is very similar to it.

thurmas Oct 11, 2022 3:37 PM

Tsn reporting hockey canada ceo and entire board are resigning to be replaced by new board. Likely due to Bauer pulling out as their equipment supplier this morning.

q12 Oct 11, 2022 3:40 PM

Quote:

Smith, Hockey Canada board of directors stepping down

Hockey Canada announced that CEO Scott Smith and the entire board of directors is stepping down effectively immediately to "make room for a new slate of directors."
https://www.tsn.ca/scott-smith-hocke...down-1.1860721

Video Link


https://c.tenor.com/AhmpELYIfBEAAAAC...itanic1997.gif

thewave46 Oct 11, 2022 3:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9757087)
Tsn reporting hockey canada ceo and entire board are resigning to be replaced by new board. Likely due to Bauer pulling out as their equipment supplier this morning.

This logic always confused me.

A scandal erupts, current board decides to dig in its heels despite terrible optics. They circle the wagons for awhile despite being in an indefensible position. Sure enough, eventually somebody important (usually the money) tells them to go pound sand, because the smell of a rotting corpse won't magically go away.

Off they go. At least they look particularly stupid on the way out? :shrug:

esquire Oct 11, 2022 3:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9757042)
I don't think that's necessarily true, even if I also feel the NFL is pretty unlikely to come to Toronto regardless.

The NFL essentially views Toronto (and Canada) as almost part of the American domestic market, not as some foreign market still be conquered.

They had us at "hello".

In some respects Toronto is to the NFL as Halifax is to the CFL. Both cities could probably support teams in those respective leagues, but the front-end costs have ballooned so much (new NFL stadium likely clocking in at close to a billion dollars, new CFL stadium probably at least 200 million dollars) that it is now prohibitively expensive. The Toronto NFL promoters also have to deal with a massive franchise fee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad (Post 9757054)
The Moncton Wildcats of the QMJHL has gone all out, purchasing an organ for home games, and hiring a professional organist to play the beast.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/resized.ima...gan-4456_0.jpg

Apparently the organ was purchased from the same manufacturer who supplied the organ to the Detroit Red Wings, and is very similar to it.

Whoa that is impressive, I love it! Adds character to the place.


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