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-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

someone123 Dec 13, 2018 8:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8407377)
I don't have the answer but I think it's an interesting question whether the Saskatchewan Rush would still get 15,000 people a game if they played in a lacrosse league with only Canadian teams.

These discussions are strange in that they are almost always "anchored" by attendance figures for similar sports or teams, plus of course we have the cheerleader component of people talking about how amazing attendance is in their city. If a team is near the top it's considered a success and if it's near the bottom of attendance it's considered a failure.

You could approach this from the other angle and ask: What are the economics? What maximizes enjoyment for spectators? What maximizes profits? Maybe a team that gets 2,000 spectators on average is fine, and makes sense from a league perspective. Or maybe it's a financial disaster, but you can't tell just from attendance numbers.

In the QMJHL the top team attracts more than 5x more spectators than the bottom 3 teams. It is mostly a small town league with a couple of larger cities that just happen to fall below the high NHL cutoff. Would the QMJHL be better without the small town teams like Acadie-Bathurst? In terms of fan enjoyment I doubt it. There's a huge supply of wannabe pro athletes willing to work for peanuts.

There are travel and venue costs that put a floor on the scale of teams that places can support and today probably mean that you won't see a Val D'Or team flying across the continent for regular matches but this floor is well below 15,000 people paying 20 bucks a game. And the floor for being able to afford a bus and driving 4 hours to get to the average game is even lower.

Acajack Dec 13, 2018 8:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123 (Post 8407794)
These discussions are strange in that they are almost always "anchored" by attendance figures for similar sports or teams, plus of course we have the cheerleader component of people talking about how amazing attendance is in their city. If a team is near the top it's considered a success and if it's near the bottom of attendance it's considered a failure.

You could approach this from the other angle and ask: What are the economics? What maximizes enjoyment for spectators? What maximizes profits? Maybe a team that gets 2,000 spectators on average is fine, and makes sense from a league perspective. Or maybe it's a financial disaster, but you can't tell just from attendance numbers.

In the QMJHL the top team attracts more than 5x more spectators than the bottom 3 teams. It is mostly a small town league with a couple of larger cities that just happen to fall below the high NHL cutoff. Would the QMJHL be better without the small town teams like Acadie-Bathurst? In terms of fan enjoyment I doubt it. There's a huge supply of wannabe pro athletes willing to work for peanuts.

There are travel and venue costs that put a floor on the scale of teams that places can support and today probably mean that you won't see a Val D'Or team flying across the continent for regular matches but this floor is well below 15,000 people paying 20 bucks a game. And the floor for being able to afford a bus and driving 4 hours to get to the average game is even lower.

If you look at the English Premier League, typically you have roughly the top half of the clubs that have NFL-style attendance numbers: 50-60-70,000.

Then you have another rough half that has attendance numbers similar to the CFL: 20,000-35,000.

And then a few bottom feeders that have attendance that's about half or worse of CFL attendance, in the 10,000 range.

JHikka Dec 13, 2018 8:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8407805)
If you look at the English Premier League, typically you have roughly the top half of the clubs that have NFL-style attendance numbers: 50-60-70,000.

Then you have another rough half that has attendance numbers similar to the CFL: 20,000-35,000.

And then a few bottom feeders that have attendance that's about half or worse of CFL attendance, in the 10,000 range.

Again, going off topic because this isn't really an example of Canadian, but the Premier League operates differently as it's an open-ended structure. There's bonus payments for European play at the top, TV payments for all, and parachute payments for when they're relegated from the league itself.

A team like Bournemouth, who have the small 10K stadium you're referencing, rely overwhelmingly on domestic TV. Over 91% of their revenue comes from the EPL's TV deal. Their total matchday revenue for a year is roughly $10MUSD. [Source]



So, yeah, attendance only gets you so far at the surface of things.

Acajack Dec 13, 2018 8:47 PM

I get that.

Bournemouth aren't doing too badly in the standings. I take it they'd get more than 10,000 out to their games if they had a bigger stadium?

JHikka Dec 13, 2018 8:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8407820)
Bournemouth aren't doing too badly in the standings. I take it they'd get more than 10,000 out to their games if they had a bigger stadium?

Yeah, and they've been talking about moving into a bigger stadium in the future (their current stadium is not owned by them and is leased). They've wanted to build a new stand to bring the total up to 15K but haven't been able to get approval from local council to do so. I can't imagine anything over 20K would be feasible, IMO.

The thing with the open system is that having a big stadium is great at the top but absolutely awful lower down. There are plenty of teams with giant 20K/30K stadiums that only get 10K or 15K out because they're playing in lower divisions. Always better to have too few seats than too many.

Anyway, back to Canada.

Trevor3 Dec 16, 2018 2:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8406104)
https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/bursting...gues-1.4213030

'Bursting point': Booming Halifax courted by multiple sports leagues

It's a heady time for sports fans hankering for more athletic entertainment in Atlantic Canada's biggest city -- a place awash with cranes with a thriving construction sector, healthy employment gains, strong population growth and a booming housing market.

But the sports buzz is dampened by doubts about whether a city of 400,000 people -- even one that functions as a regional capital -- can sustain so many teams.

"There's only so much disposable income to go around," says Concordia University sports economist Moshe Lander.

Rainnie says in order to survive, the football team will have to attract fans from across the region -- Moncton, Charlottetown, Truro and beyond -- who are willing to drive to Halifax to watch the games."

A lot of these teams are basically fringe sports for Halifax. I get the comment that recent immigrants tend to go toward soccer over other sports, but with Halifax's population around 400,000, are there really that many immigrant or new Canadians to support a professional soccer team over the long-term? To last, they have to draw from the majority of the population which is more typical Canadian - hockey and baseball fans.

The Mooseheads do great for 3 reasons: 1) It's hockey in a Canadian city; 2) They have good "rivalries" with Cape Breton, Moncton, and Saint John and 3) at various times have had really high end NHL prospects and teams which were competitive and championship calibre.

Basketball - The Rainmen already went under. The Hurricanes play to small crowds. If the CFL comes to Halifax, I can't see how the Hurricanes would survive. It looks like they're only hanging on now and anything that would cause attendance to drop could be fatal.

CFL - I don't think being Canadian and not playing American teams would ever put the CFL below the NLL lacrosse team. A large part of Halifax wants to be considered in the same breath as other large Canadian cities and being in a league with Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal and Calgary, etc... would be plenty of draw for fans.

NLL - I know nothing of lacrosse culture or prevalence in Halifax. But I haven't heard much about lacrosse during my time living in Sydney or Fredericton. So if they require continental travel and professional salaries, I'm not sure what the business case is for the team to survive, but they have to expect to be and remain 2nd fiddle to the Mooseheads since the season runs head to head with the 2nd half of the hockey season and playoffs.

isaidso Dec 16, 2018 7:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trevor3 (Post 8410538)

Basketball - The Rainmen already went under. The Hurricanes play to small crowds. If the CFL comes to Halifax, I can't see how the Hurricanes would survive. It looks like they're only hanging on now and anything that would cause attendance to drop could be fatal.

It should be noted that the Rainmen only folded because the league they were in folded. Basketball has long been a popular sport in Nova Scotia and before it gained traction in Toronto, I might add. Support has historically been at the university level but support at all levels seems to have dropped off considerably since the 1970s/1980s.

Like previous pro basketball teams I don't see the Hurricanes folding unless the league folds. The season doesn't compete with the CFL season and I don't see interest in basketball declining further. If anything, it should increase over time but support might go to university ball instead of the Hurricanes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trevor3 (Post 8410538)
CFL - I don't think being Canadian and not playing American teams would ever put the CFL below the NLL lacrosse team. A large part of Halifax wants to be considered in the same breath as other large Canadian cities and being in a league with Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal and Calgary, etc... would be plenty of draw for fans.

Agree 100%. The CFL will likely generate the same kind of hype that Ottawa received when the RedBlacks launched. I don't see support waning after the initial excitement either. Even staunch NFL supporters in Halifax will likely be drawn in (unlike in Toronto). The culture of Toronto is shaped by outside influences due to the massive immigrant/first generation Canadian population. In smaller cities this demographic reality doesn't exist so the dominant culture is far less vulnerable.

US 4 down football has largely filled the void due to the absence of the CFL. The arrival of the Schooners should shift support to regular football.

JHikka Dec 17, 2018 1:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trevor3 (Post 8410538)
A lot of these teams are basically fringe sports for Halifax. I get the comment that recent immigrants tend to go toward soccer over other sports, but with Halifax's population around 400,000, are there really that many immigrant or new Canadians to support a professional soccer team over the long-term?

Anecdotally, I was in Halifax for the World Cup and the bars I went to were absolutely packed with standard white Canadians. There were a few recent immigrants here and there but the breakdown seemed standard for Halifax. Wildly different from my World Cup viewing experiences in Toronto. I don't think the Wanderers need to rely on immigrants to be successful (and everything on their social media seems to line up with that).

What makes the sport a fringe sport? Not having any previous representation at any level? Ottawa had a basketball team in the NBL and it absolutely failed - but Ottawa is home to two of the best CIS basketball programs in the country. The Ottawa Champions are basically failing but I wouldn't say baseball is a fringe sport. So much, IMO, depends on where the team is playing and when. I would have considered rugby a fringe sport in Toronto but there's going to be two professional teams there next year. If a team can carve out its niche it can be successful.

OHL teams can't really make a go of it in Toronto proper and nobody really says Toronto isn't a hockey city. The same can be said for Montreal Island.

JHikka Dec 18, 2018 8:32 PM

Canada Soccer announces that Nike will be its official footwear, apparel, and equipment supplier starting in January. Umbro previously held these rights.

https://www.canadasoccer.com/canada-...-nike--p161979

JHikka Dec 19, 2018 4:17 PM

As it relates to the Blue Jays:

Major League Baseball Strikes Out With Fan Attendance, Again
Teams lost nearly $94 million in ticket revenue in 2018. And that’s not even counting unsold hot dogs and beer.

By Eben Novy-Williams
October 5, 2018, 6:00 AM ADT


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...tendance-again

https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/.../v1/800x-1.png

https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/.../v1/800x-1.png

https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/.../v1/800x-1.png

--

The Blue Jays' attendance dropped from 3,203,886 (39,554) in 2017 to 2,325,281 (29,066) in 2018. According to Team Marketing the Blue Jays increased their ticket prices by 10% between 2017 and 2018. The average cost of a general ticket is $26.07USD, below the league average of $32.44

le calmar Dec 19, 2018 5:24 PM

So this is what happens when the team stops performing well, people jump off the bandwagon.

esquire Dec 19, 2018 5:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by le calmar (Post 8414041)
So this is what happens when the team stops performing well, people jump off the bandwagon.

Rogers made hay while the sun was shining. And the ticket price increases and probably increased sponsorships from that run will probably offset the drop in real numbers quite nicely.

JHikka Dec 20, 2018 6:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by le calmar (Post 8414041)
So this is what happens when the team stops performing well, people jump off the bandwagon.

More or less. It's good to have a general gate/gameday financial figure to attach to a 10K/game decrease in attendance (between $30M-$40M).

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire
Rogers made hay while the sun was shining. And the ticket price increases and probably increased sponsorships from that run will probably offset the drop in real numbers quite nicely.

Indeed. According to Forbes the Jays were $23M in the black for 2017 (EBITDA), and were only $-1.3M in 2018 with very high player salaries. $274M revenue with $180M in player salaries is pretty sharp, IMO. IIRC the Forbes numbers are for the year previous (so 2018 numbers are for the 2017 season).

Basically total revenue flatlined between 2017 and 2018. Ticket prices are already going to be higher for when the bandwagon comes back.

https://www.forbes.com/teams/toronto-blue-jays/

elly63 Jan 3, 2019 1:02 AM

Halifax CFL proponents now selling swag for proposed Atlantic Schooners
The Canadian Press January 2 2019

HALIFAX — It doesn't exist yet, but the Atlantic Schooners Football Club — Halifax's proposed CFL team — is already selling swag.

Alyse Hand, a spokeswoman for the group, says merchandise including T-shirts, hoodies, socks and tuques with the club logo are now available from an online store.

Hand says the site was launched just before Christmas "as a way to get Schooners fans excited about a future team."

She says sales have been steady since the launch, and some sizes have sold out.

The clothing is made in Atlantic Canada by the Truro, N.S.-based Stanfield's Ltd.

Last month, Atlantic Schooners founding partner Anthony LeBlanc said more than 6,000 season-ticket applications had been sold, and that plans for a stadium would soon be unveiled.

Hand says the group is in the process of submitting a business analysis to the Halifax Regional Municipality.

"There is no firm date for a release of stadium plans, but Schooners Sports and Entertainment, along with key stakeholders, will be engaging the community this month (mid-January) as it pertains to the proposed stadium and next steps," she said in an email.

Hand says information about a public town hall will be released in the "coming days."

The Canadian Football League announced last month that a regular-season game will be played somewhere in Atlantic Canada in 2019, as part of the Schooners franchise drive.

LeBlanc has said the Toronto Argonauts will face the Montreal Alouettes on Aug. 25, possibly at a temporarily expanded stadium in Halifax, in Moncton, N.B., or at St. Francis Xavier University in Antigonish, N.S.


https://i.imgur.com/OgSzHu7.jpg

SaskScraper Jan 4, 2019 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8413939)
As it relates to the Blue Jays:

Major League Baseball Strikes Out With Fan Attendance, Again
Teams lost nearly $94 million in ticket revenue in 2018. And that’s not even counting unsold hot dogs and beer.

By Eben Novy-Williams
October 5, 2018, 6:00 AM ADT

--
The Blue Jays' attendance dropped from 3,203,886 (39,554) in 2017 to 2,325,281 (29,066) in 2018. According to Team Marketing the Blue Jays increased their ticket prices by 10% between 2017 and 2018. The average cost of a general ticket is $26.07USD, below the league average of $32.44

Quote:

Originally Posted by le calmar (Post 8414041)
So this is what happens when the team stops performing well, people jump off the bandwagon.

WOW that's a phenomenal drop in attendance year over year, will be interesting to see if/when & how drastically it bottoms out in the years/decades to come. My guess is that Canadian's patience has been wearing thin with Roger's Communication that owns the Blue Jay's, so called "Canada's Team".

Maybe the Blue Jays could drum up more revenue if they can get another Pro tenant to pay for the bills at Rogers Centre Skydome.:shrug:
The Toronto Argonauts may be willing if Roger's Communication were to cut the football team a sweet deal :tup:

FrankieFlowerpot Jan 4, 2019 1:28 PM

Err.... sure

JHikka Jan 4, 2019 3:44 PM

MLB teams have big swings up and down depending on how competitive the team is. Playing 80+ home games ensures that the swing is more noticeable than most major leagues. The next time the Jays are competitive tickets will be more expensive than during their last Championship series run so they'll be maximizing revenues more than previously.

JHikka Jan 9, 2019 1:19 AM

Couple numbers from Bill Brioux:

Canada/Russia - WJC - TSN - Dec 31, Thur - 2.4M
Canada/Finland - WJC - TSN - Jan 2, Wed - 4.0M+
Bears/Eagles - NFL - CTV - Jan 6, Sun - 1.5M

roccerfeller Jan 9, 2019 3:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8407820)
I get that.

Bournemouth aren't doing too badly in the standings. I take it they'd get more than 10,000 out to their games if they had a bigger stadium?

They've been fantastic this year. Fraser, Wilson and Brooks in particular have been super fun to watch!

(not a bournemouth fan but a general EPL fan)

Keep in mind, Bournemouth's franchise value alone is very likely is more than the entire revenue from all 9 CFL teams

(Bournemouth was stated to be worth about 172 million pounds, about 291 million Canadian dollars or similar to the franchise value of the Florida Panthers last fiscal year)

JHikka Jan 14, 2019 4:02 PM

CFL set to extend media rights deal with ESPN

https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/.../CFL-ESPN.aspx

"The new deal calls for at least 20 games per season on one of ESPN’s linear television networks, usually ESPN or ESPN2. That includes at least one division final and the Grey Cup championship game. It will place at least 65 CFL games on the direct-to-consumer service, ESPN+. The CFL says every game will be available."


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