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-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

suburbanite Jan 2, 2020 6:36 PM

Like every other time this is brought up, relegation systems do not work in the strictly hierarchical and salary-capped North American leagues.

Whether or not Saskatoon could theoretically put more fans in seats than Tampa Bay or Carolina is irrelevant when they likely can't maintain a $79 million/year payroll or build a 19,000 seat stadium.

Mister F Jan 2, 2020 6:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suburbanite (Post 8788800)
Like every other time this is brought up, relegation systems do not work in the strictly hierarchical and salary-capped North American leagues.

Whether or not Saskatoon could theoretically put more fans in seats than Tampa Bay or Carolina is irrelevant when they likely can't maintain a $79 million/year payroll or build a 19,000 seat stadium.

None of this is relevant to my point. It was a hypothetical scenario. I was simply saying that the location of teams is based on where the league wants them, not where the demand is.

LakeLocker Jan 2, 2020 7:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suburbanite (Post 8788800)
Like every other time this is brought up, relegation systems do not work in the strictly hierarchical and salary-capped North American leagues.

Whether or not Saskatoon could theoretically put more fans in seats than Tampa Bay or Carolina is irrelevant when they likely can't maintain a $79 million/year payroll or build a 19,000 seat stadium.

You can still have a salary cap in a relegation system.

The difference between a rel pro system would the need for the CHL to be a seniors league.

You'd have to have 3 2nd tier leagues to make it work.

The CHL proves that Canada is more or less perfect for this system.

LakeLocker Jan 2, 2020 7:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister F (Post 8788771)
The fact that people think of the CFL as something to be "outgrown" just shows how provincial sports fandom is in this city. There's no city in the world that only supports teams that are at the pinnacle of their sport. That seems to be a uniquely Toronto/Canada thing.


It's pretty common knowledge that NHL teams aren't really located based on demand. If we had a promotion/relegation system like the Wolfpack play in natural supply and demand would take over and we'd have more teams in Canada and fewer in the US. And, for that matter, we'd have more teams in eastern Canada than the west.

The "big leagues" argument is total nonsense.

If this was the case the rangers/blackhawks/kings etc would have far more popularity in the city.

The reality is MLSE has an effective monopoly on sports in this country.

The CFL will never work in the GTA until there is a another team in the city(ideally Mississauga) with ownership that is aggressively pushing for attention.

Djeffery Jan 2, 2020 8:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister F (Post 8788812)
None of this is relevant to my point. It was a hypothetical scenario. I was simply saying that the location of teams is based on where the league wants them, not where the demand is.

And where the people with money are, like any other sports league. Tim Hortons balked at paying the price almost 30 years ago, and thus we have the Tampa Bay Lightning. Quebecor balked at paying the price 4 or 5 years ago, and thus Seattle is going to take the place that QC would have had. The fact that Edmonton and Ottawa still have teams, Winnipeg got theirs back and QC could have got their backs shows the NHL and Bettman aren't as anti-Canada as the popular opinion seems to be.

Djeffery Jan 2, 2020 8:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LakeLocker (Post 8788822)
The "big leagues" argument is total nonsense.

If this was the case the rangers/blackhawks/kings etc would have far more popularity in the city.

The reality is MLSE has an effective monopoly on sports in this country.

The CFL will never work in the GTA until there is a another team in the city(ideally Mississauga) with ownership that is aggressively pushing for attention.

I think you mean to say MLSE has a sports monopoly in Toronto, since they don't own any teams outside of Toronto. I don't think another CFL team in the GTA would do anything to help the Argos. They won 2 of the last 8 Grey Cups and moved out of the stadium that supposedly was ruining them. You would just create 2 very unstable franchises.

JHikka Jan 2, 2020 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LakeLocker (Post 8788822)
The reality is MLSE has an effective monopoly on sports in this country.

Surely you mean in Toronto.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LakeLocker (Post 8788822)
The CFL will never work in the GTA until there is a another team in the city(ideally Mississauga) with ownership that is aggressively pushing for attention.

What? No. :haha:

Not many things can work in places like Mississauga because they're commuter suburbs with no local identity. A soccer team is having a difficult time getting crowds out in York and you think gridiron has a shot in Mississauga? If the Argos can't make it work I doubt a team in the suburbs would have much more hope. London would be a better shout.

Quote:

Originally Posted by djeffrey
Quebecor balked at paying the price 4 or 5 years ago, and thus Seattle is going to take the place that QC would have had.

I'm pretty sure you have this backwards. I think the NHL BoG doubted Quebecor could provide $400M+ USD for an expansion team in addition to the normal operating costs of the team, in addition to all the others issues that QC would bring to the league and players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by djeffrey
The fact that Edmonton and Ottawa still have teams, Winnipeg got theirs back and QC could have got their backs shows the NHL and Bettman aren't as anti-Canada as the popular opinion seems to be.

Heyyyy someone that gets it! Bettman/the BoG has gone to bat for Canadian teams just as much as they have for American teams that have had difficulties. The NHL doesn't gain much by moving teams around at will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister F
It's pretty common knowledge that NHL teams aren't really located based on demand.

What does this have to do with how the NHL treats Canadian franchises? Are you suggesting the NHL set up shop in Sudbury or Corner Brook?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister F
If we had a promotion/relegation system like the Wolfpack play in natural supply and demand would take over and we'd have more teams in Canada and fewer in the US. And, for that matter, we'd have more teams in eastern Canada than the west.

Firstly, we don't, and likely never will.

Secondly, sure, but you know Canadian teams could presumably be removed from the picture altogether in this scenario, too, right? Canadian teams aren't exactly at a competitive balance when it comes to American competition on a number of fronts, not the least of which being that more people play hockey in the US than in Canada and that the Canadian dollar is valued at 25% less than its American counterpart.

The franchise model actually ensures their place in the league much more than a proposed pro/rel system would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suburbanite (Post 8788800)
Whether or not Saskatoon could theoretically put more fans in seats than Tampa Bay or Carolina is irrelevant when they likely can't maintain a $79 million/year payroll or build a 19,000 seat stadium.

Surely the people of Saskatoon would support a 2nd division hockey side which would occasionally get blown out at the top level of hockey in North America. Surely those same people of Saskatoon also wouldn't mind watching a top tier NHL with two teams in Toronto, Montreal, Boston, Minnesota, and Chicago as well.

elly63 Jan 4, 2020 1:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon (Post 8788255)
So much whining/crying because Toronto has outgrown the CFL.

I think most everybody outside Toronto thinks the rest of Canada has outgrown Toronto's wannabe culture. There is no other place on earth I can think of where a place not only ignores local sport (which is possibly understandable) but actively denigrates it. That's perverse.

And please let's not hear the ol' "I wanna watch the best" line because it is total BS.

elly63 Jan 4, 2020 1:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8788593)
I mean, if you add the SN and CBC numbers on Saturday you end up with a combined 1.3M, which is more than any CFL reg. season game and roughly half what the Grey Cup brings in.

I think you need a new calculator.

elly63 Jan 4, 2020 1:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister F (Post 8788771)
The fact that people think of the CFL as something to be "outgrown" just shows how provincial sports fandom is in this city. There's no city in the world that only supports teams that are at the pinnacle of their sport. That seems to be a uniquely Toronto thing.

FYP Wish I would have read your post earlier, would have saved me from making the same post. Either way, it's still pathetic.

TorontoDrew Jan 4, 2020 3:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8790143)
FYP Wish I would have read your post earlier, would have saved me from making the same post. Either way, it's still pathetic.

Sorry for wanting the best. When you live in a city that has teams in every major league but one what do you expect? Also Toronto is a global city with a population with more then 50% born outside Canada. People come here knowing the major leagues and following them if they're into sports. What's pathetic is calling a 9 team leage Pro. A 9 team league that is made up mostly American players that couldnt make the cut in the NFL. Not likeing the CFL has nothing to do with being a patriotic Canadian. If that was the case nobody would watch the Superbowl. But as ratings show more people in Canada tune into that game then the GreyCup. Pathetic I know but a nation wide reality.

esquire Jan 4, 2020 4:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew (Post 8790207)
What's pathetic is calling a 9 team leage Pro.

Apparently you don't know what 'pro', as in professional, means...

Berklon Jan 4, 2020 5:04 AM

People like/dislike what they like/dislike. Why not just accept that and move on with your life instead of going through yet another decade of trying to lay a guilt trip on Toronto?

Not sure why everyone's concentrating on Toronto when there are other cities struggling to draw interest for the CFL... and for the most part the league has been declining for a few years now. The 90's are coming back - I can already hear the grunge music.

When someone doesn't like your product, don't blame the customer - blame the product... especially after 3 decades. That's Business 101. Adapt or perish.


Anyway, back on topic...

NFL Wildcard playoffs start tomorrow. Love this time of the year.
Every single playoff game up to and including the Super Bowl (11 games) caught with a simple antenna in glorious less-compressed High Definition for free. Oh baby!

Hackslack Jan 4, 2020 5:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew (Post 8790207)
What's pathetic is calling a 9 team leage Pro.

By that logic, what’s even more grossly pathetic is counting Stanley cups when the “pro” league only had 6 teams. When was the last time you raised a Stanley Cup banner, Toronto?! you’re a complete f’n disgrace Toronto!

osmo Jan 4, 2020 8:34 AM

Toronto is a lost cause but it does provide a hyper environment to where the CFLs issues are amplified. Too much projection into Toronto when much of these faults are the CFLs own doing. The broken record is that the CFL has been too lazy to not adapt.

The CFL's peak was when it was analogous to the NFL in the 50s, 60s and 70s with salaries being comparable and thus talent being transferable. Once the 80s hit and the NFL started to rocket up with TV money and boost salaries the CFL has been left to flounder ever since. Save for its many near free fall and only now since about 10 years ago can the league say it has found stable footing again. The CFL botched television for decades with overzealous blackout rules which ended up doing more harm in shutting out potential young fans. Back in the day with not much internet or social media (the 90s) was an opportune time to build up young fans via television.

The next issue still revolving around money and salaries. A decade ago the NFL made sweeping changes to its practice roster rules where it increased the slots and upped the pay. You now have a situation where a NFL practice roster individual makes more on average than a CFL player. For a "professional" football players who's job and skillset is simply to play football, he is simply going to where the money is. I can't stress this enough. There are legions of men who know nothing else but to play football and have put in the same years and time as any other professional but for an assortment of reasons could not get to the top level (consistent career starter with consistent contracts). These men are in the business of football and for them it makes more sense to swallow thier pride and get a six figure paycheck to be a nobody on a NFL practice roster versus the potential of being a starter in Canada. For them money is the motivation. The CFL has, by choice, not taken the steps to be competitive and offer far better compensation than the NFL practice circuit and it continues to pay the price in the inability to find adequate talent for many key positions such as QB. The CFL QB crisis can be directly linked to this.

CFL hard-headed fans can't connect the dots that this critically wounded the CFL as these journey men where a prime source of CFL talent. Unlike other sports football talent is severely limited and if you are taking away ~100 more potential prospects from consideration what see you left with? Canadian development has stagnated and there isn't much yet thing as alternative international pools for talent.

This is why you see the CFL doing odd moves such as Mexico as they have the intention of looking to grow player markets but you won't get CFL players from Mexico until infrastructure, and coaching is put in place and this still it takes a generation to get players. Look at the NFL and Germany for an example as that nation has a system in place for football but it hasn't matured yet to start producing consistent talent yet. There may be now some German propects playing in NCAA, and only in 2016 did the NFL see it's first German direct draft prospect and this was only now after a 20+ years of program development in Germany.

The CFL has failed to address it's player development and it's salaries for far too long. Just as well as it failed to build up it's brand and culture. Hiding behind suspicious TV numbers when the trends are going away from TV for younger fans. The NBA for example has already laid out plans to recover TV money shortfalls by exploring other revenue streams a while the CFL still lives of its TSN money and little else.

This all leads to the point back to Toronto as who is to blame that with football, the CFL, can't be viewed as the pinnacle of its sport? All it takes is good branding and culture development as the CFL should be promoted as a unique and odd game that is the pinnacle of its own standing. Country unique leagues such as AFL and Geilic are widely popular in their respective countries, so why can't the CFL follow suit? Now with all the old Boomers who were growing up as kids of the 50-70s growing older the CFL now sees it has little to know fans on the horizon. Toronto saw this problem early as that crowd cycled out of the city decades ago. So again, why is Toronto to blame for showing a light on the CFLs own critical issues. Toronto should be seeing a renaissance as the GTA has been producing lots of football prospects for both CIS and NCAA as of lately. Where is the CFL to latch onto that ? I can keep going...

The only fix for the Toronto mess is to pull the plug the team for a few years and reboot from scratch. There also needs to be an acceptance to be closer to the actual fan base in the 905 where's all those Boomer Generation Canadians live now. There is no care for Argos in 416 Toronto.

Berklon Jan 4, 2020 4:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 8790255)
By that logic, what’s even more grossly pathetic is counting Stanley cups when the “pro” league only had 6 teams. When was the last time you raised a Stanley Cup banner, Toronto?! you’re a complete f’n disgrace Toronto!

1967 was 53 years ago. When you buy a TV today, do you compare it with a TV from 1967 to determine if it's worth buying?

Any why even bring up the Leafs? The poster made a comment about a league - not a team.

And counting Stanley Cups from the O6 era doesn't mean you're celebrating/gloating about it. It's just part of history and you count it - even if it's not that big an accomplishment to win back then. If anything, I hear Habs fans mention those cups a lot more often when they gloat about their 24 Stanley Cups.

elly63 Jan 4, 2020 5:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew (Post 8790207)
Sorry for wanting the best. When you live in a city that has teams in every major league but one what do you expect? Also Toronto is a global city with a population with more then 50% born outside Canada. People come here knowing the major leagues and following them if they're into sports. What's pathetic is calling a 9 team leage Pro. A 9 team league that is made up mostly American players that couldnt make the cut in the NFL. Not likeing the CFL has nothing to do with being a patriotic Canadian. If that was the case nobody would watch the Superbowl. But as ratings show more people in Canada tune into that game then the GreyCup. Pathetic I know but a nation wide reality.

My only issue is people like you actively trolling and trying to denigrate the league, I could care less if you don't like it and feel more comfortable with hype, puppies and shiny objects. MLS and Rugby are not the best so the "best" argument is BS. You don't see most of us trying to put down the CPL and hoping it dies and goes away, so why do you do what you do?

suburbanite Jan 4, 2020 5:20 PM

The argument I here most is that people in Toronto feel that they're "owed" a place at the big boys table by supporting and having successful teams in every other big 4 league.

The vast majority of people probably couldn't tell you the difference between a cover-0 and cover-2 defensive scheme but the actual salary cap and the players not having to "work as a gym teacher" in the off-season legitimizes the league for a lot of people in it for the spectacle.

I stopped caring about football; nfl, CFL or otherwise after I stopped playing. Toronto's likely never getting an nfl team and will likely never embrace the argos either. No doubt this conversation will continue to repeat itself once a year at least though.

elly63 Jan 4, 2020 5:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suburbanite (Post 8790435)
Toronto's likely never getting an nfl team and will likely never embrace the Argos (again) either.

FYP and agree.

thurmas Jan 4, 2020 5:25 PM

Toronto can be revived in the CFL as TFC and Wolfpac Rugby have shown you don't need to be in the so called biggest and best sports league to have success. The Argos need to have consistent winning regular seasons like Calgary and Winnipeg and not the flukey one off Grey Cup wins that fizzled out right away before they could be built off of. Also dedicated pricing and promos to get kids into the stadium like the Eskimos are doing should be replicated.


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