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llamaorama Jan 22, 2013 5:22 AM

Being not from San Diego I have to wonder.

That airport is borked in it's layout and size. There's only one runway that has an approach right over the center of the city, and the USMC boot camp* walls off the northern side. If the US had an airport as badly located as Kai Tak, it would be Lindbergh. But I guess there is literally nowhere to put a big Denver sized new airport anywhere because of the mountainous terrain.

*could they move it the way they closed the it's navy counterpart next door, and add a second runway and big northern terminal?

Derek Jan 22, 2013 5:43 AM

The most viable option is building a new airport at MCAS Miramar, about 10 miles north of downtown San Diego, but county residents rejected it. I don't think the military would want to give it up either.


Also, the runway isn't "directly over center city", it's about a half mile north of it. The buildings aren't as close as people actually think they are. Las Vegas has more 350+ foot towers (Mandalay Bay, THEhotel, MGM Grand Towers, New York, New York etc.) closer to their runways and approach/departure paths than San Diego does.

mello Jan 22, 2013 6:02 AM

Great pic Hugo, weird how the urbanized areas North of La Jolla show up much less grayish in color than those from LJ south... And TJ must be so dense to have 2 million plus residents in that area you see in this shot. The urbanized part of Tijuana looks to be only 300 square miles or so. It really isn't that big especially North to South.

Regarding the airport in that shot from Hugo Miramar looks to be less than 10 miles from SAN as the crow flies. And we don't need a "Denver sized Airport" just two parallel runways and we are fine. I mean look at LAX it really isn't that big at all compared to DIA when you take in to account its runway layout yet it is handling twice as many passengers as DIA.

The only other option I see for SD is turning Palomar Airport in Carlsbad in to a Fort Lauderdale type situation so it can handle say 8 to 10 million passengers a year. This would take tons of pressure off of SAN and it would be fine with just its one runway.

202_Cyclist Jan 22, 2013 4:16 PM

mello:
Quote:

The only other option I see for SD is turning Palomar Airport in Carlsbad in to a Fort Lauderdale type situation so it can handle say 8 to 10 million passengers a year. This would take tons of pressure off of SAN and it would be fine with just its one runway.
California Pacific Airlines, a low-cost airline that will serve regional destinations, plans to begin scheduled passeger service this March from McClellan-Palomar Airport.

California Pacific Airlines Plans Spring Launch Date
http://encinitas.patch.com/articles/...ng-launch-date

Additionally, Palm Springs International Airport served over 1.7 million passengers in 2012 and the airport now has a non-stop flight to JFK. I've thought of this airport serving tourists and local passengers in the immediate area but perhaps with better marketing and more flights, this could serve some of the Temecula/western Riverside Co. residents who might use San Diego instead.

Palm Springs airport's rep soars
http://www.mydesert.com/article/2013...nclick_check=1

mello Jan 22, 2013 8:57 PM

Pretty long drive from Temecula/Murrieta/Lake Elsinore to Palm Springs. I think Palomar would be a better option for serving them. Turning Highway 76 in to a real freeway would have really helped SW Riverside County have access to Coastal North County.... I always thought it was inept planning not to make that a true freeway. As it is now it is such a long drive from the 15 to I-5 on the 76.

202_Cyclist Jan 22, 2013 9:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mello (Post 5983495)
Pretty long drive from Temecula/Murrieta/Lake Elsinore to Palm Springs. I think Palomar would be a better option for serving them. Turning Highway 76 in to a real freeway would have really helped SW Riverside County have access to Coastal North County.... I always thought it was inept planning not to make that a true freeway. As it is now it is such a long drive from the 15 to I-5 on the 76.

It's a long drive but not that much farther than Temecula/Murrieta/Lake Elsinore to SAN. It is 68 miles from Temecula - Palm Springs vs. 60 miles to SAN. When you consider likely congestion going to San Diego, travel time is probably very similar. so with ground travel times roughly comparable, issues like fares, frequencies, parking costs, etc... are important. There are nearly 300,000 people who live in these communties. Making Palm Springs more of a reliever airport for western Riverside County clearly won't solve capacity issues for San Diego but getting some of them to choose other regional airports is part of the solution.

Derek Jan 22, 2013 9:35 PM

Don't forget about Ontario International Airport, 55 miles from Temecula. It already has destinations to many hubs in the US, as well as Guadalajara.

202_Cyclist Jan 22, 2013 9:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek (Post 5983552)
Don't forget about Ontario International Airport, 55 miles from Temecula. It already has destinations to many hubs in the US, as well as Guadalajara.

Correct-- Ontario would be the most likely local airport but at 55 miles to Ontario vs. 68 for Palm Springs, the distance and ground travel time is roughly similary (probably less highway congestion driving east towards Palm Springs). The number of destinations served, fares, cost of parking, and choice of airlines are all important considerations for passengers but Palm Springs might be able to serve a larger reliever role for Southern California's aviation system with a concerted marketing effort, increased flights, and improved ground transportation.

Derek Jan 22, 2013 9:57 PM

I just don't see it as a viable true reliever airport for Southern California, it's 55 miles from San Bernardino, 107 miles from Los Angeles, 91 miles from Anaheim and 123 miles from San Diego. The only people Palm Springs benefits (potentially) is the people of Palm Springs, and the eastern edges of the Inland Empire. Plus, the 79 through Temecula all the way to Beaumont (via Warren Road) and the I-10 junction is mostly a 2-4 lane road with many stop lights, and those streets are frequently congested as well at peak hours.


I think increasing service and accessibility to Ontario would make more sense than Palm Springs. 37 miles from LA, 55 miles from Temecula, 25 miles from San Bernardino, 30 miles from Anaheim and 114 miles from San Diego.

SDfan Jan 23, 2013 7:03 PM

Does anyone know anything about these office tower proposals?
Quote:


Sempra moving to new offices?
Energy company also weighing lease renewal


Sempra Energy, downtown's leading corporate headquarters company, is thinking of building a new office tower, even as it weighs renewing the lease at its present site.

Downtown office brokers are betting that Sempra stays put at 101 Ash St, where it and San Diego Gas & Electric Co., have been based since 1968.

But they say Sempra also is thinking of moving to another downtown building or building a new one downtown, near University Towne Centre or in Kearny Mesa.

...

Downtown brokers said three companies are in the running to woo Sempra away from Shapery's building:

Cisterra Development has submitted plans for a 15-story, 300,000-square-foot building just north of Petco Park. Jason Wood, senior vice president, said if Sempra does not pick this option, it will be "tabled" for now as a project to pursue.

Irvine Co. has proposed Sempra relocate to One America Plaza at Broadway and Kettner Boulevard, where several tenants are scheduled to move out in the next two years. Irvine also has proposed Sempra occupy the proposed La Jolla Centre III building at 4660 La Jolla Village Drive. Irvine spokesman Michael Lyster cited confidentiality agreements in not offering a comment on these options.

Sunroad Enterprises proposes Sempra occupy the second office tower planned at the Sunroad Centrum development at the former General Dynamics-Convair missile plant site in Kearny Mesa. Sunroad could not be reached for comment. Such a location might appeal to Sempra since SDG&E's offices are located nearby.

???

Urbanize_It Jan 24, 2013 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by llamaorama (Post 5982791)
Being not from San Diego I have to wonder.

That airport is borked in it's layout and size. There's only one runway that has an approach right over the center of the city, and the USMC boot camp* walls off the northern side. If the US had an airport as badly located as Kai Tak, it would be Lindbergh. But I guess there is literally nowhere to put a big Denver sized new airport anywhere because of the mountainous terrain.

*could they move it the way they closed the it's navy counterpart next door, and add a second runway and big northern terminal?

Why the heck would we want a DIA sized airport in SD? Being from Denver originally I feel I am qualified to say moving SAN would be a huge mistake. I (and most other Denver residents) lamented the day that Stapleton closed and the Kansas International Airport… er I mean Denver international airport opened. SAN is the most convenient airport I have ever used and I will fight tooth and nail against any plan to move it. Build an additional international terminal somewhere in the desert if you want, but leave SAN alone! Just my opinion…

SDfan Jan 24, 2013 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbanize_It (Post 5985233)
Why the heck would we want a DIA sized airport in SD? Being from Denver originally I feel I am qualified to say moving SAN would be a huge mistake. I (and most other Denver residents) lamented the day that Stapleton closed and the Kansas International Airport… er I mean Denver international airport opened. SAN is the most convenient airport I have ever used and I will fight tooth and nail against any plan to move it. Build an additional international terminal somewhere in the desert if you want, but leave SAN alone! Just my opinion…

I agree that SAN is convenient. I also think that SAN will likely play a role in San Diego's air transportation needs for decades to come, even if a new airport is built somewhere else.

I also think that SAN is a reflection of this city's consistent lack of foresight and hostile to progress citizenry. It's 5 minutes from downtown, but isn't connected directly to any major freeway nor the trolley/train system, is one -short- runway, is hemmed in by homes, businesses, the bay, and the Marine Corps, and has no growth potential whatsoever after 2020.

But hey, it's 5 minutes from downtown. I'm sure that's enough of a reason for seniors and directionally challenged citizens to want to keep Lindbergh open, but I don't think so. :p

But again, SAN is not going anywhere. You can count on San Diego's backwater citizenry to keep real progress at bay. ;)

Lipani Jan 24, 2013 12:37 AM

I expect teleporters from Star Trek to be invented before Lindbergh shuts down. :haha:

llamaorama Jan 24, 2013 1:26 AM

I should clarify and say "Denver like" in the way of having lots and lots of land. Not in passenger capacity or runway size, obviously.

But you guys are right. Not only is there a place to put anything like that, there's other airports in the region.

spoonman Jan 24, 2013 4:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDfan (Post 5984695)
Does anyone know anything about these office tower proposals?


???

I would think that Sempra would be a perfect candidate for the 880 Broadway project, next to Santa Fe station. It would be sad to see them leave downtown.

aerogt3 Jan 24, 2013 9:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDfan (Post 5985268)
I also think that SAN is a reflection of this city's consistent lack of foresight and hostile to progress citizenry. It's 5 minutes from downtown, but isn't connected directly to any major freeway nor the trolley/train system

It's not "directly" connected but it's very close and very easy to access from the freeway. It's a short cab/bus ride from the trolley, and there are plans to extend trolley service to the airport. In contrast, any proposed alternative is nowhere near the trolley system, and expanding trolley service to a new airport would cost WAY more than connecting SAN. Not to mention SAN has the benefit of being very close to the coaster, which Miramar for example would not.

Quote:

is one -short- runway, is hemmed in by homes, businesses, the bay, and the Marine Corps, and has no growth potential whatsoever after 2020.

But hey, it's 5 minutes from downtown. I'm sure that's enough of a reason for seniors and directionally challenged citizens to want to keep Lindbergh open, but I don't think so. :p

But again, SAN is not going anywhere. You can count on San Diego's backwater citizenry to keep real progress at bay. ;)
The short runway is a non-issue. Sure, it prevents fully loaded 747's from landing, but that's an aircraft that would virtually never be landing in SD even if the runway were big enough. I think you underestimate the benefit SAN brings for tourism, conventions, business and to average travelers being SO close to the city. SAN is not just close to downtown, it's the most connected location by existing transit.

Higher capacity aircraft (787, 350), can and will do a lot to expand capacity. If SAN becomes slot restricted airlines will simply load 787's with 250 passangers instead of 737's carrying 120. 30 flights a day are to LA... by 2020 I imagine a lot of that capacity will free up, via shift to rail, consolidation onto larger aircraft, flights from north county, etc. 30 flights a day on a mid size aircraft is 3M passengers a year....

For you a new, expensive, unconnected airport away from the major tourist and population centers is progress, but for the rest of us it's a waste of money.

SDfan Jan 24, 2013 4:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerogt3 (Post 5985724)
It's not "directly" connected but it's very close and very easy to access from the freeway.

Meandering through Laurel, Pacific Highway, and Harbor Drive isn't "very easy to access." The fact is that the 5 is kind of, sort of, not really at all connected to the airport.

Quote:

It's a short cab/bus ride from the trolley, and there are plans to extend trolley service to the airport.
Transferring takes time and makes the current trolley link unreasonable. The 992 circulates at an alright pace, but again, its not a popular route and only serves downtown. Also, I don't know if you read the article from the UT this past week, but extending the trolley line to the airport isn't so easy, especially since long term plans call for a complete overhaul of the airports configuration anyways.

Quote:

Not to mention SAN has the benefit of being very close to the coaster, which Miramar for example would not.
Not sure if you have ever ridden the coaster, but it cuts right through MCAS Miramar, and has laid rail that heads towards the main runway already.

Quote:

The short runway is a non-issue. Sure, it prevents fully loaded 747's from landing, but that's an aircraft that would virtually never be landing in SD even if the runway were big enough.
The short runway was a major reason for the comprehensive 2006 study on airport relocation, to say otherwise is fooling yourself.

Quote:

I think you underestimate the benefit SAN brings for tourism, conventions, business and to average travelers being SO close to the city. SAN is not just close to downtown, it's the most connected location by existing transit.
I think you overestimate the SAN's convenience to San Diegans. Yes, you can get to SAN easily from downtown, you can take a bus easily from downtown, you can grab a cab easily from downtown... but downtown isn't centrally located in the county. And SAN isn't easily accessible in itself. A myriad of streets are needed to reach it from the 5. The closest trolley stop is nowhere near its terminals. The coaster passes briskly by SAN's back end. Your "its the most connected location by existing transit" claim is true -and a sad reality.

Quote:

Higher capacity aircraft (787, 350), can and will do a lot to expand capacity. If SAN becomes slot restricted airlines will simply load 787's with 250 passangers instead of 737's carrying 120.
I do have hope for the 787. But it's still going to be inconvenient when only a select number of international flights will be able to take off and land thanks to the single runway and time constraints on the airport (the airport closes in the late evening, flights don't resume until the early morning).

Quote:

30 flights a day are to LA... by 2020 I imagine a lot of that capacity will free up, via shift to rail, consolidation onto larger aircraft,
Rail isn't going to absorb much, especially with High Speed Rail not coming to San Diego until at least 2030, if ever.

Quote:

flights from north county, etc. 30 flights a day on a mid size aircraft is 3M passengers a year....
I'm from hoebunk north country. Believe me, the day Palomar Airport becomes a major reliever airport for SAN is the day everyone in Carlsbad is relocated to a reservation. I dare you to tell them an additional 3 million people will be commuting through their tree lined avenues to hop on planes flying over their homes. NIMBYism runs rampant up north, Palomar will not be a major player, let alone reliever for SAN.

Quote:

For you a new, expensive, unconnected airport away from the major tourist and population centers is progress, but for the rest of us it's a waste of money.
Yes, a new expensive airport would be wonderfully progressive for a city that has put its head in the sands of Mission Beach for years. A new airport at Miramar would be connected by new trolley and rail lines (needed already as highway congestion only gets worse), would be more centrally located in the county (Miramar is smack dab in the middle and surrounded by nearly every major freeway in the region), and would provide greater access to the international markets than SAN ever will.

But, because people continue to be short sighted (ignorant) or, at the very least, reluctant to give up whats easiest for themselves personally (selfish), SAN will continue to be our flagship airport. San Diego has been run by a host of small thinkers and NIMBY appeasers, and that will not change within the next 50 years.

202_Cyclist Jan 24, 2013 5:13 PM

SDfan:
Quote:

I'm from hoebunk north country. Believe me, the day Palomar Airport becomes a major reliever airport for SAN is the day everyone in Carlsbad is relocated to a reservation. I dare you to tell them an additional 3 million people will be commuting through their tree lined avenues to hop on planes flying over their homes. NIMBYism runs rampant up north, Palomar will not be a major player, let alone reliever for SAN.
California Pacific Airlines hopes to begin commercial passenger service from Palomar this spring to destinations throughout California and Phoenix and Las Vegas.

http://www.flycpair.com/_images/RoutesPhase1.jpg
Image courtesy of California Pacific Airlines.

At 91, Ted Vallas has a lofty ambition: starting an airline
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/aug...rline-20120822

Additionally, I posted the other day about the possibility of Palm Springs serving more of a reliever airport function to accommodate some of the 300,000 residents of western Riverside County (Temecula, Lake Elsinore, Murrieta) who might otherwise use San Diego (SAN). The distance is 68 miles for Palm Springs vs. 60 for SAN for these communities.

SDfan Jan 24, 2013 5:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist (Post 5986079)
SDfan:


California Pacific Airlines hopes to begin commercial passenger service from Palomar this spring to destinations throughout California and Phoenix and Las Vegas.

http://www.flycpair.com/_images/RoutesPhase1.jpg
Image courtesy of California Pacific Airlines.

At 91, Ted Vallas has a lofty ambition: starting an airline
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/aug...rline-20120822

Additionally, I posted the other day about the possibility of Palm Springs serving more of a reliever airport function to accommodate some of the 300,000 residents of western Riverside County (Temecula, Lake Elsinore, Murrieta) who might otherwise use San Diego (SAN). The distance is 68 miles for Palm Springs vs. 60 for SAN for these communities.

I'm well aware of CPA, and I hope they are extremely successful. I'm just not seeing much growth potential after CPA, however.

202_Cyclist Jan 24, 2013 5:59 PM

SDfan:
Quote:

I'm well aware of CPA, and I hope they are extremely successful. I'm just not seeing much growth potential after CPA, however.
I think California Pacific Airlines has the chance to be at least moderately successful. The airline will use smaller, fuel-efficient, 70-seat Embraer aircraft. Between North County, southern Orange County, and the Riverside County communities I mentioned, there is approximately 1.5-2 million people within a reasonable drive of Palomar airport.

You're probably correct with Palomar but airlines and passengers will adapt to any future capacity constraints at San Diego. Airlines can use larger aircraft, allowing more capacity at SAN. As noted in other posts above, this can perhaps signficantly increase passenger throughput for the airport. Additionally, as capacity becomes more constrained, ticket prices will rise, further encouraging the use of larger aircraft or encouraging passengers to use other airports (Palomar or Orange County, depending on where the passengers reside).


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