Either I didn't write my post clearly or you misread it. I meant to say the only parts of downtown one can expect to regularly find available parking spaces on the street is skid row and north of I-5 on 5th 6th etc. In the core areas of downtown expecting to just drive right in and get a street parking space is obviously very unrealistic. The area in which this building will be built doesn't have good street parking especially once the all the new projects around there are finished and occupied.

Fun article with neat pics on Park 12 (Ballpark Village)

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/...516-story.html

Children's Park Improvements.

Full document.

https://i.imgur.com/6VSYZYm.jpg

Finally that park as it is now is such a waste of space and underutilized. Just homeless hanging out. I mean I appreciate the trees and shade but it just feels... blah, can't really put my finger on it. This will really help to activate a pretty dead section of downtown.

Yeah for something called a children's park, it wasn't very kid-friendly. More like a landscape architectural artwork. It was especially before they flattened all of those mounds. They got rid of them because children would theoretically walk behind them and disappear from their parents' view. You would have to be constantly vigilant at this park, especially with all the homeless, dog shit, and busy roads on three sides. The fenced-off playgrounds should be a big improvement, but it may need some security like they have at waterfront park.

I used to work at the New Children's Museum, back in 2008 when the park still had the mounds.

We would get complaints nearly every morning about the orgies homeless people would have at the park, hidden from site between the mounds.

Yeah, those mounds needed to go! :haha:

Heard through a friend today that Horton Plaza has changed hands again very recently (the French redevelopment company has sold it), and that redevelopment is another few years off. Has anyone else heard/seen anything along those lines?

Heard on TV news that the big Manchester Pacific Gate complex will start construction very soon, maybe a few months. I guess all the funding is in place and the permits finalized.

Everything we have heard is that redevelopment will begin soon. Who would just sit on a complete rotten egg and loss their ass for "a few years". That property is a complete money pit as is. Whoever buys it is going to want to get rolling right away. Has anyone been to downtown Miami's Brickell City Centre? Do you think a concept like that would be a good replacement for Horton Plaza?

Isn’t there a children’s park/playground right across the street? Is this supposed to be an extension of that?

I liked the mounds of grass visually speaking, but I guess it was too hard to maintain and have security at. It’s too bad.

A few years would be soon for San Diego :). As far as we know there aren’t even any plans yet, so by the time they come up with plans, go through a decision process, get all the approvals and permits, and deal with any NIMBY lawsuits 3 years would be optimistic in my opinion. I hate to be negative but my guess is we don’t see anything for a decade. I hope I’m wrong, but I’m going based on past developments.

What I'm trying to say is this is different than buying an empty lot and trying to build on it or buying city owned land 12th/Market, 7th/Market, Old Courthouse Site. The French Company outlayed HUGE amounts of cash for all those Westfield malls. So I'm sure they sold this prime parcel with a "Mall" on it to whomever for a pretty penny. The new owner isn't going to want to sit around and lose money on this site because its probably a ton of money.

For example the company that bought 12/Market had the capital sitting for a while before recouping investment but buying Horton Plaza is a mega investment with a structure you need to maintain and pay bills on like water, power, facility employees etc. Unless they got it for a steal I doubt they are planning to just sit and let it continue to rot for 3 more years. They will probably announce a demo shortly. Plus who can really pull NIMBY stuff in that spot its in the heart of downtown?

Getting through the permit process is no joke. I'm working on a project in Kearny Mesa right now that is far less ambitious than a billion dollar redevelopment a block away from a national historic district, we just finished the engineering and design but now just getting CEQA approval is going to take at least two years. There are a few ways you could speed up that process, but a development of that scale and in that area is going to have real trouble taking advantage of them.

I have heard a few rumors about Horton Plaza, one of the firmest being that Unibail isn't even going to consider any serious changes until they finish redeveloping UTC. Apparently they're still deciding just how big they want this project to be. There's at least one idea to knock down the parking structures, redesign the entrances, and 'open up' the mall's interior to the now vibrate downtown. There's another which would also do something like this, but additionally would add on several stories of apartments/condos above the main structure. And finally, there's a from-the-ground-up rebuild with several mixed use high-rises. Whatever they end up deciding, the current PDO requires over 1.6 million sq ft worth of retail/commercial so it going to remain some form of mall.

Will: I hear what you are saying I was thinking with a lack of "Wins" lately by city government they might try to speed up the process on a Horton Redo seeing that it sits right in the heart of downtown and you already have one huge white elephant sitting in Mission Valley. Do they really want a dead mall to languish in the heart of their downtown? So maybe they would work with the state to bypass CEQA.

Think about it Chargers gone, No new stadium, no new arena, Manchester Pac Gateway really had nothing to do with the city they lagged on it actually, Seaport Village laaaaging, Harbor Island redo..... Etc Etc. The city needs a win they need something to point to and say look we got something done! I guess this convention center expansion looks like it will only need a 50% vote now but that is about it. Plus they have to pay off the 5th Ave landing guys 30 million.

What do you guys think about building the expansion on the lot right behind Petco possibly with a Hotel on top AND getting that nice 5th ave landing Hotel built? So no contiguous expansion but you get that bad ass hotel and total revamp of the bayside walkway. That seems like a Win Win to me. :cheers:

The Chargers downtown stadium was torpedoed by the want of a contiguous CC expansion so we better get one.

Plus I think that's what Comic Con wants.

Regardless of what the city gov wants, there isn't a whole lot of options available here. The state isn't going to be giving out a special deal for something like this, you'd have the pass a bill in the state assembly and that would spiral into the political third rail of CEQA reform. Beyond that all city hall can do is give the sign off to the plans, which they will almost assuredly do. SD is actually one of the more pro-development cities in California, if you can believe it. The city approved Pac Gate all the way back in the mid-90s and never really wavered in their support, but an endless series of CEQA lawsuits combined with a few recessions held back development for 20+ years. Seaport Village is going through the CEQA process right now, so expect another 2 years unless it gets hit with a lawsuit too. Harbor Island redo is being held up by the Coastal Commission, who are demanding that any hotel rooms they build for less than $100 a night because apparently "public access" means building hostels on some of the most valuable land in the country. . The port is sueing on behalf of the developers, and they'll win just like they did the last time the CC pulled this but it takes time.

IANAL but from what I understand there's a very limited amount the city can do to speed along this project beyond what it's already doing, because the bottleneck lies with the state. A project of this scale is never going to be able to get a no effect determination, not when you're required to examine things like traffic and light pollution, and so the only legal way to bypass a full CEQA EIR is to have the development result from a citizens' ballot initiative like SoccerCity is.

Re:the convention center, the 50%+1 interpretation of the statues is on shaky ground, legally speaking. I'd expect it to be challenged in court if the result is less than 2/3s. Non-continuous expansion is probably not feasible from an engineering and urban design standpoint, you'll either have these long skybridges that are just asking for a crowd crush accident, or comi-con attendees completely blocking Harbor Blvd for hours at a time trying to walk from building to building. If 5th Ave landing isn't feasible the only realistic option would be an expansion on top of Habor, at god knows what cost and on what timeframe. 5th Ave, by contrast, is already certified and is basically just waiting for the cash at this point.

Las Vegas CC is built over Desert Inn Road. This could certainly be done on Harbor, but there would be significant pushback from the "walling off the waterfront" crowd. Would be difficult to get through, though I believe the CC lobby has a lot of support at city hall.

No one has a right to own a car? Do you actually think that?

Driving is a privilege/luxury that far too many take for granted. And, it absolutely does contribute to living expenses (cost of housing, strain on infrastructure, etc.).

Show me where it says in the Constitution that driving is a right. I'll wait.

Owning a car is not the same as driving.