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-   -   Canadian Airport Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153826)

Dominion301 Jul 12, 2021 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatnext (Post 9337963)
Canada also had Jetsgo, Canada3000 and Greyhound Air. Not a stellar record.

Regionals like Nordair, Air BC and Air Ontario never had the kind of fleet Porter envisions.

One major difference is none of those airlines lasted as long as Porter has...not even C3. Jetsgo was always a joke, C3 died post-9/11 after their 3-way merger, while Greyhound was successful, but when the bus company was sold, the new owners wanted nothing to do with the airline and shut it down in a controlled manner.

Porter have always been cautious, yet innovative. I don't expect them to change that biz model.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hehehe (Post 9338081)
This is very off-topic so I will make it really brief but is there really a 5th wave there? The numbers seem pretty low right now in most places. I think it will be fine to operate there (I could totally be wrong) :)

Me neither, but it's just at the start. Cases hit over 27,000 again on Friday and the 7-day moving average has increased more than 50% from June 21st's low point. It obviously won't be as bad as wave 3 or 4, but it'll likely rival wave 2 last year.

YYCguys Jul 13, 2021 12:18 AM

I wonder how Porter will connect passengers between YTZ and YYZ, or will it simply be like in Washington or New York where if you want to fly from A to B you will use YYZ and if you want to fly from C to D you utilize YTZ?

thewave46 Jul 13, 2021 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YYCguys (Post 9338282)
I wonder how Porter will connect passengers between YTZ and YYZ, or will it simply be like in Washington or New York where if you want to fly from A to B you will use YYZ and if you want to fly from C to D you utilize YTZ?

I actually think Porter will actively discourage connections between YTZ and YYZ.

I don't think one can book a connection between Montreal and somewhere out west via YTZ on Air Canada.

Dominion301 Jul 13, 2021 1:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9338287)
I actually think Porter will actively discourage connections between YTZ and YYZ.

I don't think one can book a connection between Montreal and somewhere out west via YTZ on Air Canada.

Actually you can. They'll sell you connection out of YTZ to pretty much anywhere.

About the only route AC don't seem to want anyone to book for whatever reason is YOW-YUL. They charge like $300 one-way. If they charged $75 one-way, they'd actually sell a few seats.

thewave46 Jul 13, 2021 3:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9338589)
Actually you can. They'll sell you connection out of YTZ to pretty much anywhere.

About the only route AC don't seem to want anyone to book for whatever reason is YOW-YUL. They charge like $300 one-way. If they charged $75 one-way, they'd actually sell a few seats.

Oh, you can start your trip at YTZ and be connected via YUL on Air Canada. You just can't connect onwards via YTZ. Air Canada won't let me book such a thing, nor will Google Flights. Which makes sense. You can buy two separate tickets and self-connect if you like misery and taking unnecessary risks.

I imagine Porter will do the same for the destinations they serve out of YYZ exclusively. No airline would be foolish enough to route a passenger via a land connection (AFAIK) to another airport and maintain a semblance of sanity in their operations.

YTZ will still have connections on Porter. Just like today. I would be absolutely shocked if they did land connections between YTZ and YYZ. It just seems like such a hassle for no real benefit.

whatnext Jul 13, 2021 4:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9338217)
One major difference is none of those airlines lasted as long as Porter has...not even C3. Jetsgo was always a joke, C3 died post-9/11 after their 3-way merger, while Greyhound was successful, but when the bus company was sold, the new owners wanted nothing to do with the airline and shut it down in a controlled manner.

Porter have always been cautious, yet innovative. I don't expect them to change that biz model...

Porter only lasted so long because they controlled YTZ and then sold it off for more cash to keep going. No more rabbits to pull out of that hat.

thewave46 Jul 13, 2021 5:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatnext (Post 9338775)
Porter only lasted so long because they controlled YTZ and then sold it off for more cash to keep going. No more rabbits to pull out of that hat.

I thought Porter was reasonably profitable, no?

It's not like they have huge overhead, as the Q400 isn't terrible economics-wise. They have premium customers because of their base of operations at YTZ. Their network is diverse enough too for their size.

thenoflyzone Jul 13, 2021 9:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9338843)
I thought Porter was reasonably profitable, no?

According to info provided in their latest lawsuit, they weren’t.

thewave46 Jul 13, 2021 9:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9339182)
According to info provided in their latest lawsuit, they weren’t.

Then I'm curious as to why they're doubling down. Or why someone's shovelling in the cash to burn.

bikegypsy Jul 13, 2021 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9339182)
According to info provided in their latest lawsuit, they weren’t.

Are you talking about that lawsuit from YTZ for unused slots that no one else wanted during the darkest days of the pandemic? Doesn't Porter run 90% of the flights at YTZ, essentially keeping it afloat?

Dominion301 Jul 14, 2021 4:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9338717)
Oh, you can start your trip at YTZ and be connected via YUL on Air Canada. You just can't connect onwards via YTZ. Air Canada won't let me book such a thing, nor will Google Flights. Which makes sense. You can buy two separate tickets and self-connect if you like misery and taking unnecessary risks.

I imagine Porter will do the same for the destinations they serve out of YYZ exclusively. No airline would be foolish enough to route a passenger via a land connection (AFAIK) to another airport and maintain a semblance of sanity in their operations.

YTZ will still have connections on Porter. Just like today. I would be absolutely shocked if they did land connections between YTZ and YYZ. It just seems like such a hassle for no real benefit.

Oh in the reverse that's true. The pre-pandemic primary examples of an in-city airport transfer would mostly consist of BA between LHR and LGW-only destinations and AF between CDG and ORY-only destinations.

Dominion301 Jul 14, 2021 4:44 AM

YOW's June 2021 pax stats:

Sector / Jun-20 / Jun-21 / % Change
Dom: 20,256 / 44,837 / +121.4%
TB: 219 / 0 / -100.0%
Int'l: 0 / 0 / #DIV/0!
TTL: 20,475 / 44,837 / +119.0%

Sector / YTD 2020 / YTD 2021 / % Change
Dom: 773,127 / 162,263 / -79.0%
TB: 163,093 / 0 / -100.0%
Int'l: 168,382 / 0 / -100.0%
TTL: 1,104,602 / 162,263 / -85.3%

12 Months Rolling / % Change vs Year End 2019
Dom: 421,173 / -89.5%
TB: 0 / -100.0%
Int'l: 0 / -100.0%
TTL: 421,173 / -91.8%

The meaningful indicator these days:
Month-Over-Month Change
Sector / May-21 / Jun-21 / % Change
Dom: 21,599 / 44,837 / +107.6%
TB: 0 / 0 / #DIV/0!
Int'l: 0 / 0 / #DIV/0!
TTL: 21,599 / 44,837 / +107.6%
Avg/Day: 697 / 1,495 / +114.5%

Flair launched YOW in mid-June. July will be F8's first full month. I expect July will be at least double June's number.

zahav Jul 14, 2021 5:52 AM

I don't think Porter would be smart to jump into any intra-Western Canada routes yet. They are still very much an Eastern airline, and don't have that much brand knowledge here. And Western Canada has a long history of disliking Eastern airlines (AC is still thought of very differently in Western Canada than in ON or QC, even after all these years). They still have a large share of the market out here, and their brand is nowehere near the level of poison it was in the early 2000s, which was a main reason why WS took over Canadian Airlines void way more-so than AC.

But routes from East>West should do OK, because of the origin pax.

thenoflyzone Jul 14, 2021 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 9339549)
I don't think Porter would be smart to jump into any intra-Western Canada routes yet. They are still very much an Eastern airline, and don't have that much brand knowledge here. And Western Canada has a long history of disliking Eastern airlines (AC is still thought of very differently in Western Canada than in ON or QC, even after all these years). They still have a large share of the market out here, and their brand is nowehere near the level of poison it was in the early 2000s, which was a main reason why WS took over Canadian Airlines void way more-so than AC.

But routes from East>West should do OK, because of the origin pax.

30 planes is a sizeable order. The fact they aren't basing any of them out west is a clear indicator that they don’t plan on operating much intra-west or west-US flying, at least for now.

whatnext Jul 14, 2021 7:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9339198)
Then I'm curious as to why they're doubling down. Or why someone's shovelling in the cash to burn.

Welcome to the airline business.

Remember the famous quote from Richard Branson “The quickest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start out as a billionaire.”

Coldrsx Jul 14, 2021 8:06 PM

Haha classic.

kwoldtimer Jul 14, 2021 8:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatnext (Post 9340100)
Welcome to the airline business.

Remember the famous quote from Richard Branson “The quickest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start out as a billionaire.”

Cheap credit, let me introduce you to desperate to unload aircraft.

Dominion301 Jul 15, 2021 5:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9339593)
30 planes is a sizeable order. The fact they aren't basing any of them out west is a clear indicator that they don’t plan on operating much intra-west or west-US flying, at least for now.

Yeah probably little to none intra-west flying for the first 30. It takes a lot of aircraft to fly YYZ/YOW/YUL-YEG/YYC/YVR plus probably YHZ-YYC 1-4x daily, and a decent amount to fly YQR/YXE/YWG-YOW/YYZ and maybe YUL too.

BenYOW Jul 16, 2021 4:15 PM

From the Facebook livestream of Mike Kelloway, MP - Cape Breton—Canso, Sydney Airport (J.A. Douglas McCurdy Sydney Airport) has been awarded $2.7M in federal funding through the Regional Air Transportation Initiative (RATI). This has been confirmed through a news release from the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency.

Other forum members may correct me, but I believe this is the first package of RATI funding publicly announced.

thenoflyzone Jul 17, 2021 11:44 AM

Speaking of regional airport investments, looks like Trois-Rivieres (YRQ) and Ottawa-Gatineau (YND) are also getting funding. Almost $8 million between the two.

https://canadianaviationnews.wordpre...vity-and-jobs/

The money will help construct a new passenger terminal building in YRQ, and a new parallel taxiway in YND (The latter is much needed. I can attest to that, from my days controlling the airspace at Ottawa). YND is one of the busiest airports in Canada without an air traffic control tower service.

Quote:

Details on the contributions are as follows:

The Ville de Trois-Rivières owns the Trois-Rivières Airport, which is managed by Innovation et Développement économique Trois-Rivières (IDE Trois-Rivières), an NPO mandated by the Ville de Trois-Rivières to support and coordinate economic development across the territory. The Ville de Trois-Rivières is receiving a non-repayable contribution of $4M to expand and modernize the airport terminal. The assistance from CED will enable the airport to construct a LEED building and acquire passenger security and airport maintenance equipment.

The Gatineau-Ottawa Executive Airport (AEGO), owned by the Ville de Gatineau, has a mission to foster regional economic development. Mandated by the Ville de Gatineau to manage, promote and operate airport infrastructure, the AEGO is receiving a non–repayable contribution of $3,889,845 to develop the airport. CED’s assistance will make it possible to add a roadway parallel to the landing strip and expand the terminal.


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