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-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

elly63 Apr 16, 2018 9:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8156686)
^ But what makes them an easier team and sport to bandwagon?

Personally I don't think it's about it being an easier team and sport to bandwagon, I think it's just a broad cultural preference for baseball. I simply don't think basketball resonates nearly as much. Which is funny because basketball is hardly exotic or novel, probably nearly everyone in Canada has played it at some point in their lives.

Bingo!

esquire Apr 16, 2018 9:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8156690)
That's essentially the answer i'm reaching. Baseball is more accessible for the majority of Canadians than basketball, for whatever cultural reasons we want or don't want to get in to.

What do you mean by accessible, though? I don't think basketball is the kind of sport that Canadians are generally unfamiliar with or don't really understand, like, for example, cricket or rugby.

Brizzy82 Apr 16, 2018 9:27 PM

Is basketball really that unpopular in Winnipeg? I'm very curious to know what the local ratings are.

I work with a lot of young Filipino and Black dudes.. a ton of them watch NBA religiously (anecdotal of course, but I definitely hear way more talk about it around my work than the CFL for example.)

elly63 Apr 16, 2018 9:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8156690)
Baseball is more accessible for the majority of Canadians than basketball, for whatever cultural reasons we want or don't want to get in to.

Baseball is definitely not more accessible to participate in than basketball. And race is a very big part of the argument of why basketball is not as popular outside the GTA and in the ROC.

esquire Apr 16, 2018 9:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brizzy82 (Post 8156701)
I work with a lot of young Filipino and Black dudes.. a ton of them watch NBA religiously (anecdotal of course, but I definitely hear way more talk about it around my work than the CFL for example.)

Without a doubt that is the core NBA audience in Winnipeg, young Asian and black men. Basketball is particularly huge in the Philippines and the enthusiasm is visible here (no different than, say Italians or Portuguese and their love for soccer).

But once you get outside of that demographic, basketball fandom here falls off a cliff.

JHikka Apr 16, 2018 9:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8156700)
What do you mean by accessible, though? I don't think basketball is the kind of sport that Canadians are generally unfamiliar with or don't really understand, like, for example, cricket or rugby.

Three points:
  • 1) Age Demographics;
  • 2) Immigrant Demographics; and,
  • 3) Age of franchise/league impact in country.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Globe and Mail
The game is being played by 354,000 Canadian kids, according to the Youth Sports Report, making it the third most popular team sport, after soccer and hockey. But among new Canadian kids (and immigrants make up half Toronto's population), basketball ranked second. It's also more popular than hockey among girls, with more than 100,000 participating.

[Source]

The Canadian Youth Sports Report (2014), by the Solutions Research Group, highlighted the interest that young Canadians have in basketball:

"Thirty-two percent (32%) of Canadian kids and youth follow the NHL, ranked #1 in all youth demographics. The NBA is in the #2 spot in Toronto, Vancouver and among New Canadian youth. MLS ranks #3 in Vancouver and #2 in Montreal. The research suggests that youth engagement with professional leagues is an area of concern, however: even among teens 13-17, 43% do not follow any professional league."

They also echoed the beliefs from the G&M Article:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sport Report
BASKETBALL IS THE 2nd MOST POPULAR TEAM SPORT AMONG NEW CANADIAN YOUTH, NEXT TO SOCCER

New Canadian families, where the parents were born outside of Canada, value sports too, but they also put priority on participation in music, art, book clubs, language learning.

Fifty-five percent of new Canadian youth aged 3-17 participate in organized sports but they are slightly less likely to be in organized team sports (24% vs. 30% average). Top team sports for New Canadian youth were soccer, basketball, hockey and volleyball, in that order.

With over one million immigrants settling in Canada every four years, establishing a strong base among New Canadians is essential to the future growth of any sport in the country.

Also Sportsnet:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sportsnet
In the recent Canada Project survey of more than 1,500 Canadians, 11 per cent of millennial respondents said basketball would be the sport they’d want their child to excel in, while just 19 per cent said hockey. When the question was “Which sport do you watch with your parents?”, millennials were seven times more likely to answer basketball than baby boomers.

...

Many first-generation Canadians are second-generation Raptors fans who don’t know a Canadian existence without the Raptors.

The Raptors very own Superfan, Nav Bhatia, a Sikh immigrant turned sports celebrity, is testament to how basketball has been an assimilation accelerator in Canada like few other sports.

[Source]

Essentially, the Jays have had forty years to become an engrained image in the Canadian imagination (particularly with the WS wins in the early 90s) compared to the Raptors' 20 years. This sort of accessibility, coverage, and exposure needs a generation cycle or two to have full effect on interest and participation.

The put things bluntly, the Raptors are going to be more accessible in areas with higher ethnic minority and immigrants counts, which essentially means Canada's largest cities. Outside of that it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the Jays would be more accessible for bandwagons. The more that Canada's demographics shift towards ethnic minorities the more that interest will shift from the Jays to the Raptors, if only looking at those two in a vacuum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63
Baseball is definitely not more accessible to participate in than basketball.

I didn't imply participating in the sport, I meant watching and feeling culturally attached to the sport.

To put this in the most obvious of ways (it's Leafs, not Jays, but still relevant):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bmzwhv8IUAEobi2.jpg:large
CTV, Twitter

https://i.cbc.ca/1.4073357.149248406...pg?imwidth=100
CBC

TownGuy Apr 16, 2018 10:07 PM

EDIT: You beat me to it! Lol

A picture is worth a thousand words. You just have to look at who shows up to Maple Leaf Square/Jurassic Park for Leafs and Raptors games.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/btoimage/pr...ue-w_1300_.jpg

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos...re-id470688042

isaidso Apr 16, 2018 11:29 PM

^^ In Toronto, basketball definitely has a far more diverse fan base. It's also more demographically representative of Toronto. The Raptors will soon be Toronto's #1 team; it's a mathematical certainty. The Leafs fan base is large but not growing. The Raptors fan base is large and growing extremely fast.

Basketball will become Canada's Game and it's not just because of what's happening in Toronto. Basketball Canada is noticing a huge surge in interest nationally. In a way, it's all just coming full circle. Basketball's roots are Canadian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denscity (Post 8155825)
I wonder how many Canadians outside of southern Ontario watch the Raptors?

As others have pointed out it's hard to say. What's clear is that interest in basketball and the NBA is mushrooming nationally. In the end it might not matter to the Raptors how many Canadians watch.

Consider this article from 2 years ago. According to this up to 10 million people in China watch the Raptors? That's 10 times more than all the viewers in Canada. Being the most popular basketball team in China is the big prize.

Quote:

Toronto Raptors Push for Playoff Wins and the Chinese Market

http://www.bladecreativebranding.com...er-800x412.jpg

The Toronto Raptors (at the time of this post) are one win away from advancing to the Eastern Conference Final for the first time in franchise history. In this, their 3rd playoff push in as many seasons, the Raptors have grabbed the attention of sports fans in Toronto, across Canada, and in the world’s largest market as well. That’s right, China loves the Toronto Raptors.

Canadian TV ratings for the Raptors during their 56 win 2015-16 season sat at roughly 200,000 per game, with the playoff ratings this spring jumping to approximately 1 million each over the first 12 games. But in China the Raptors are seeing as many as 10 million viewers tuning into games, with the potential for millions more with the right strategy and marketing.

http://www.bladecreativebranding.com...hinese-market/


Video Link

isaidso Apr 16, 2018 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8156728)
I didn't imply participating in the sport, I meant watching and feeling culturally attached to the sport.

Are you implying that basketball is culturally foreign to Canadians? It says more about how insular some regions of Canada are and how insular hockey folk tend to be, in particular. Perhaps Ottawa has little basketball history but I'd be wary of extrapolating that to all of Canada.

I'm an immigrant to Canada from a non-basketball playing country: England. My first exposure to basketball was when I moved to Halifax at 11. All the kids grew up playing, watching, or attending basketball. It felt as Canadian as hockey or heading to the cottage.

isaidso Apr 16, 2018 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8156715)
Without a doubt that is the core NBA audience in Winnipeg, young Asian and black men. Basketball is particularly huge in the Philippines and the enthusiasm is visible here (no different than, say Italians or Portuguese and their love for soccer).

But once you get outside of that demographic, basketball fandom here falls off a cliff.

How bizarre. In the Maritimes basketball is the sport of old stock Canadians. Immigration to that region is relatively small but they seem to like basketball too.

elly63 Apr 17, 2018 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 8156926)
How bizarre. In the Maritimes basketball is the sport of old stock Canadians. Immigration to that region is relatively small but they seem to like basketball too.

Easy now, first, some of the sentiments you read these days are that basketball suddenly appeared with the Raptors which is patently ridiculous. Basketball was played in the schools and on the playgrounds many decades before the Raps came on the scene. The same goes for soccer being played in the schools, both had high participation rates across the country except that it was in the schools.

However, no one ever took them seriously as a way to have a career and there was no coverage on TV to speak of (pre 1980s) so let's not get carried away here.

I was into basketball and went to a week long camp every year at Mount A but that was not common. The only (organized) sport I didn't play as a kid was hockey and that was because everyone else did and I had to be different but hockey still was the number one sport by far.

JHikka Apr 17, 2018 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 8156921)
Are you implying that basketball is culturally foreign to Canadians?

I'm implying that, generally-speaking, Canadians are more willing to bandwagon a baseball team than a basketball team. Baseball, today, appeals to a broader swath of Canadians than basketball does. In the future, basketball will appeal to a wider swath of Canadians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 8156921)
It says more about how insular some regions of Canada are and how insular hockey folk tend to be, in particular.

You'll have to expand on this.

Acajack Apr 17, 2018 1:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8156662)
See:



It's anecdotal, but when the Jays are doing well their merch pops up everywhere. Same for the Leafs...casuals/non-fans pay attention more when they're doing well, and this shows in ratings. Jays get higher playoff ratings than non-Canada SCF games and Grey Cups.

At their height in 2015, the Jays were pulling in playoff averages between 4.5M/5.0M per game, compared to low 4Ms for Grey Cups and the 2.67M average for the SCF between Pittsburgh/Nashville. In fact, in 2017 the highest rated NHL broadcast was Game 7 between Ottawa/Pittsburgh which pulled in 4.29M - the Jays had three playoff games in 2015 higher than that, and one higher than that in 2016.

It's either a bandwagon or they're consistently the most popular non-hockey team in the country.

A Stanley Cup final involving the Leafs would make all of those numbers look like chump change.

So would one involving the Habs - it might pull in over 4 million viewers in Quebec alone and probably as many in the rest of the country.

Acajack Apr 17, 2018 1:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 8156921)
Are you implying that basketball is culturally foreign to Canadians? It says more about how insular some regions of Canada are and how insular hockey folk tend to be, in particular. .

I don't see what's insular about liking your country's national sport and expecting it to get a lot of attention. Given its history and sustained popularity.

And I say this as a person who used to be a huge hockey fan. Some years I had mini season ticket packages for both the Habs and the Sens, believe it or not. But I a guy who has gradually tuned out the NHL as something I follow closely. I am now at best a casual hockey fan. Though I am watching Leafs-Bruins as I type this.


Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 8156921)
Perhaps Ottawa has little basketball history but I'd be wary of extrapolating that to all of Canada.

.

I don't think JHikka can be said to be a typical Ottawa guy. He's from New Brunswick I think and only moved to Ottawa fairly recently.

James Naismith the inventor of basketball was from a small town 45 minutes west of Ottawa, for what's it's worth.

I don't think Ottawa has any more or any less historical basketball culture than any other city in the country except Halifax. This arguably includes Toronto before the Raptors came along.

JHikka Apr 17, 2018 2:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8157079)
A Stanley Cup final involving the Leafs would make all of those numbers look like chump change.

So would one involving the Habs - it might pull in over 4 million viewers in Quebec alone and probably as many in the rest of the country.

Absolutely. The Vancouver SCF in 2011 averaged 5.4M with Game 7 fetching 8.64M. I'd imagine a Leafs Eastern Conference Final would fetch somewhere in the 4-5M neighbourhood. Their first round games are usually between 2-3M.

For what it's worth, the Jays were hitting between 4-5M for ALCS/ALDS. I'd be curious to see how high that could go for a WS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8157092)
I don't think JHikka can be said to be a typical Ottawa guy. He's from New Brunswick I think and only moved to Ottawa fairly recently.

Nobody is ever actually from Ottawa - it's a myth. :P

Acajack Apr 17, 2018 2:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TownGuy (Post 8156764)
EDIT: You beat me to it! Lol

A picture is worth a thousand words. You just have to look at who shows up to Maple Leaf Square/Jurassic Park for Leafs and Raptors games.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/btoimage/pr...ue-w_1300_.jpg

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos...re-id470688042

I don't dispute this is happening, and this won't be a popular comment, but it's hard not to see it as a "failing" that the kids of newcomers to the country haven't been turned into fans of the national sport in greater numbers than they have.

Basketball is obviously way more popular than hockey globally but a lot of these kids (maybe most of them) aren't necessarily coming from basketball hotbed countries, and so their passion for the game isn't really driven by anything that's Canadian-originated nor is it driven by the sports culture of their parents' country of origin. We all know what it's driven by.

Acajack Apr 17, 2018 2:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8157112)
Absolutely. The Vancouver SCF in 2011 averaged 5.4M with Game 7 fetching 8.64M. I'd imagine a Leafs Eastern Conference Final would fetch somewhere in the 4-5M neighbourhood. Their first round games are usually between 2-3M.

For what it's worth, the Jays were hitting between 4-5M for ALCS/ALDS. I'd be curious to see how high that could go for a WS.
.

While the Blue Jays broadcasters in Quebec are generally satisfied with their ratings, the second largest market in the country is a bit of dead zone for them - relative to the rest of the country anyway. (Jays playoff games in recent years drew way fewer viewers than midweek Habs early season games.)

The reason I am bringing this up is that in Quebec at least any Stanley Cup final involving a Canadian team would draw way more viewers than the Jays in the World Series.

Acajack Apr 17, 2018 2:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brizzy82 (Post 8156701)
Is basketball really that unpopular in Winnipeg? I'm very curious to know what the local ratings are.

I work with a lot of young Filipino and Black dudes.. a ton of them watch NBA religiously (anecdotal of course, but I definitely hear way more talk about it around my work than the CFL for example.)

I worked with a young guy from Winnipeg about 10 years ago and he was of Asian origin (I won't out him by naming the country but it's not a basketball hotbed at all.) He was first generation born in Canada.

Anyway he was really big on the NBA and largely indifferent to the NHL and the CFL.

Totally anecdotal of course but he was my first indicator that something was up.

Until then I had always assumed that kids growing up in Canada regardless of origin were likely to be into hockey just like we were. Certainly in the 80s the gangs I hung out were mostly old stock anglophones and francophones with a decent-sized chunk of immigrant guys thrown into the mix - and they were definitely into hockey too. I played hockey on the ice and on the road with kids from the most non-hockey cultures imaginable.

Acajack Apr 17, 2018 2:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8156987)
I'm implying that, generally-speaking, Canadians are more willing to bandwagon a baseball team than a basketball team. Baseball, today, appeals to a broader swath of Canadians than basketball does. In the future, basketball will appeal to a wider swath of Canadians.
.

My father and father-in-law are quite typical of this.

They're both in their 70s from different regions of the country, and while baseball is not in their top sports (which are NHL and CFL followed by NFL probably) they will watch the Jays playoff runs even though they're not watching the Jays right now and likely won't this summer either.

I doubt either of them has ever watched an entire NBA game. They don't watch basketball any more than they watch soccer.

Actually I think my dad watches more soccer as he watches the World Cup to some degree.

It might not be as cut and dried but I think these interests are fairly common in younger generations such as mine - I am in my late 40s.

esquire Apr 17, 2018 2:53 AM

^ It doesn't help that amateur hockey became almost singularly focused on elite development. I'm not sure how it is in other parts of the country but high school hockey has become more popular in these parts as a means to continue playing reasonably competitive hockey without necessarily signing your life away at 16 so you can ride the bus for years in the juniors. But that's still kind of the exception.

No matter how you slice it, hockey is going to be a huge commitment of time, energy and money. And you have to start young and continue up the ranks. Not a lot of immigrant families will have the inclination to put up with all that. So naturally the immigrant kids will gravitate to pick up basketball or soccer where all you need is shoes and a ball, and then end up on school teams with the skills they gained that way. And not surprisingly, it ends up creating lifelong fans along the way.


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