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Vicelord John Sep 21, 2010 4:54 PM

BAH. Denver gets 300 days of sunshine a year. They have a couple big snowstorms every year but they melt off right away.

Leo the Dog Sep 21, 2010 8:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicelord John (Post 4988397)
BAH. Denver gets 300 days of sunshine a year. They have a couple big snowstorms every year but they melt off right away.

True. However, because of the dry conditions and beautiful clear skies, it gets frigid overnight. When the sun sets at 4:15 pm, the temp. plummets. Denver does have 4 seasons, including a cold winter.

Snow typically melts right away in most cities, even in Boston, on a 25 degree day, the snow melts in the sun. Sunny side of the streets have bare grass, shady sides keep the snow.

Denver is a cold climate city in the winter and don't forget about the winds, which can persist due to the physical geography of the front range.

Buckeye Native 001 Sep 21, 2010 9:52 PM

So basically, its Flagstaff (albeit at a lower elevation, with more people, and less hippies).

HooverDam Sep 21, 2010 10:02 PM

Well Id of course encourage both of you not to move, try to stick it out here, work it out, be Urban pioneers, etc.

But if you do move, Id definitely vote against LA or Portland. Portlands built environment is gorgeous, as well as its naturally setting. But the people are just intolerable, unless you're really into 25 year old white hipsters. I spent 10 days in PDX earlier this year and its like Logans Run, you never seem to see anyone over 35. Nor do you see minorities of any kind, or people who just dress like normal humans. One of the things I like about cities is the diversity, Portland has none of that.

LA is just hell on Earth to me. Its like all the things I dont like about PHX magnified. I was there for the entire month of August and couldn't wait to get out. For the most part you still have to drive everywhere, but driving is a giant headache. Parking is even more of a headache than driving. Plus the cost of living is just obscene and for no reason really, sure the weather is nice, but everything else just sucks. The entire city is covered in trash and graffiti, everything just looks run down, bleck.

From your list I'd vote San Fran or San Diego. Really if I were ever going to move and urbanism was at the forefront of that move, Id suck it up about the weather and do Chicago. To me Chicago is the ideal American city.

Vicelord John Sep 21, 2010 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooverDam (Post 4988848)
Nor do you see minorities of any kind

sounds like my type of place. That's one of the main reasons I'm considering it.

Evil Empire Sep 21, 2010 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooverDam (Post 4988848)
Well Id of course encourage both of you not to move, try to stick it out here, work it out, be Urban pioneers, etc.

But if you do move, Id definitely vote against LA or Portland. Portlands built environment is gorgeous, as well as its naturally setting. But the people are just intolerable, unless you're really into 25 year old white hipsters. I spent 10 days in PDX earlier this year and its like Logans Run, you never seem to see anyone over 35. Nor do you see minorities of any kind, or people who just dress like normal humans. One of the things I like about cities is the diversity, Portland has none of that.

LA is just hell on Earth to me. Its like all the things I dont like about PHX magnified. I was there for the entire month of August and couldn't wait to get out. For the most part you still have to drive everywhere, but driving is a giant headache. Parking is even more of a headache than driving. Plus the cost of living is just obscene and for no reason really, sure the weather is nice, but everything else just sucks. The entire city is covered in trash and graffiti, everything just looks run down, bleck.

From your list I'd vote San Fran or San Diego. Really if I were ever going to move and urbanism was at the forefront of that move, Id suck it up about the weather and do Chicago. To me Chicago is the ideal American city.

I definitely disagree about Portland. I was there just a few weeks ago and while there are plenty of young, White hipsters, the diversity was definitely there...more so than Phoenix (except less Mexicans, of course). And most of the people that I talked to generally seemed to be well-informed, intelligent, "normal" people instead of brain-dead trend followers. Just my experience, though.

Also, I totally agree with you about Chicago.

HooverDam Sep 21, 2010 11:03 PM

Using just cities off Dons list:

Non Hispanic whites:
Portland: 74%
Miami: 10.7%
Phoenix: 47%
Charlotte: 49%
Denver: 50%
San Diego: 48%
San Fran: 45%
Austin: 63%

Portland is one of the most lilly white larger cities in the country. Even compared to midwest cities which you'd expect to be rather pasty, Portland still shines as a beacon for pale folk:

OKC: 60%
KC: 57%
Minneapolis: 64%
Cincinnati: 49%

Its not necessarily a bad or a good thing I guess, its just not for me. I got very tired of seeing 27 year old white hipsters with ironic mustaches after a week there. Its like ever hipster in the country moved there after college, I thought it got a bit dull after a while.

Evil Empire Sep 21, 2010 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooverDam (Post 4988922)
Using just cities off Dons list:

Non Hispanic whites:
Portland: 74%
Miami: 10.7%
Phoenix: 47%
Charlotte: 49%
Denver: 50%
San Diego: 48%
San Fran: 45%
Austin: 63%

Portland is one of the most lilly white larger cities in the country. Even compared to midwest cities which you'd expect to be rather pasty, Portland still shines as a beacon for pale folk:

OKC: 60%
KC: 57%
Minneapolis: 64%
Cincinnati: 49%

Its not necessarily a bad or a good thing I guess, its just not for me. I got very tired of seeing 27 year old white hipsters with ironic mustaches after a week there. Its like ever hipster in the country moved there after college, I thought it got a bit dull after a while.

Statistics can be a bit misleading. The numbers for a certain city can be skewed by official city limits...like Miami. 10% non-Hispanic Whites within the city but 40% in the Metro area. Phoenix is 47% but 66% non-Hispanic Whites in the Metro area. So while Portland has more non-Hispanic Whites than Phoenix, it isn't any less diverse...it just has less Latinos when compared to Phoenix. Then again, I'm just comparing these two cities.

Yeah, that is true, Portland is a very White-populated city compared to many other large cities...but like I said, I didn't find that to be the case during my time there. I definitely came across much more Asians and Blacks than I ever have in Phoenix. Again, I think we just had a different experience in the city, especially when it came to dealing with the various people haha.

Buckeye Native 001 Sep 22, 2010 12:39 AM

Portland may not be as diverse racially, but like Denver, its a hell of a lot more educated than the mouth breathers who constitute the majority of the Valley.

Evil Empire Sep 22, 2010 2:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001 (Post 4989049)
Portland may not be as diverse racially, but like Denver, its a hell of a lot more educated than the mouth breathers who constitute the majority of the Valley.

Sadly, that's true of pretty much every large city...and many small cities.

Vicelord John Sep 22, 2010 3:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001 (Post 4989049)
Portland may not be as diverse racially, but like Denver, its a hell of a lot more educated than the mouth breathers who constitute the majority of the Valley.

So what you're saying is less minorities = smarter population?

Buckeye Native 001 Sep 22, 2010 5:07 AM

I don't like where this is going, and there's not a goddamn thing I can say or do that's going to make you think I'm any less of an idiot. Fuck it.

Leo the Dog Sep 22, 2010 6:47 AM

Don,
Just curious, but why is Portland on the list and Seattle is not? Both are in the same region with similar climates. Seems like Seattle would have more to offer in terms of employment opportunities.

Buckeye Native 001 Sep 22, 2010 6:55 AM

It does, but its notoriously difficult to find a job in Seattle (as is the case with most coastal cities).

Oregon's economy is in the tank right now. About as bad as Arizona's. Its almost pointless to look for a job elsewhere because there's hardly anything worthwhile available nationwide.

Strange Meat Sep 22, 2010 7:34 AM

Denvers winters aren't really that bad. The most snow falls outside of December, January, and February actually, and unlike places I lived in the Midwest and east coast, it melts ridiculously fast. As in 16 inches almost totally gone (just shady areas left) by the next evening is totally normal. The averages highs are pretty mild (nothing like Chicago or Mineapolis, I think even cities like Columbus, NYC and Indy are lower), about 45 in the coldest months. Sure a few quick cold snaps but also days in the 60s and sometimes warmer. I've worn shorts every January I've lived here. That and the constant sunshine and dry air make it fine.

Leo the Dog Sep 22, 2010 3:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Meat (Post 4989395)
Denvers winters aren't really that bad. The most snow falls outside of December, January, and February actually, and unlike places I lived in the Midwest and east coast, it melts ridiculously fast. As in 16 inches almost totally gone (just shady areas left) by the next evening is totally normal. The averages highs are pretty mild (nothing like Chicago or Mineapolis, I think even cities like Columbus, NYC and Indy are lower), about 45 in the coldest months. Sure a few quick cold snaps but also days in the 60s and sometimes warmer. I've worn shorts every January I've lived here. That and the constant sunshine and dry air make it fine.

Source: http://www.crh.noaa.gov/bou/?n=denver_snowfall
Quote:

Denver Snowfall Average 1882-2010 = 57.5 inches
Denver Snowfall Normal 1971-2000 = 61.7 inches
Much higher average annual snowfall totals than any big city along the East Coast (by 20+ inches)

Source: http://www.weather.com/outlook/trave...ocid2=USPA1277

Quote:

Weather At-a-Glance:
On Average:
Philadelphia/Northeast Philadelphia Arpt, PA is warmer than Denver, CO by 3°F.

Philadelphia/Northeast Philadelphia Arpt, PA is wetter than Denver, CO by 32.1 in.
Records:
Denver, CO recorded the highest temperature of 103°F in 1990.
Denver, CO recorded the lowest temperature of -24°F in 1990.
Denver would be considered a cold place during the winter months, especially for a Phoenician looking to re-locate.

NorthScottsdale Sep 22, 2010 4:37 PM

I would move to Seattle over any other West Coast city.. I used to live there, absolutely loved it. As soon as I'm done with school I'm moving back. Not only is it very urban and dense, the people are absolutely amazing there..

Strange Meat Sep 22, 2010 9:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog (Post 4989593)
Much higher average annual snowfall totals than any big city along the East Coast (by 20+ inches)

Yup. It has one of the highest snowfall totals in the US for a big metro. But it's not nearly as snowy. Let me try and explain... I went to HS in Columbus. They get like, maybe, 25 inches. However, 3 inches of snow may fall, which is a big event for them, and two or three weeks later, there will still be snow on the ground. Here, you can get 20 inches falling in Denver, and it will all be gone in the next day or two.

The average temps are higher (fairly mild compared to a lot of the country) and there is abundant sunshine.

So, yes, a lot of snow falls, but it doesn't stick around, and winters aren't nearly as dreary. I've lived all up and down the eastern seaboard and feel that this is a far better winter climate.

And yeah it might be cold for a Phonecian, but y'all are messed up anyway. I remember when I was a student at ASU people thought I was nuts cause I'd go swimming when it was 70 in the winter, or wouldn't put on a sweater at 60. :haha:





Also, look at those graphs, Philly is only higher because Denver cools off so much at night in the summer (trust me, this is a good thing, going from 95 to 65 or 60 at night). So going off nighttime temperatures, it raises the average of Philly to 3 degrees higher, but in the wintertime, the daytime highs in Denver are higher, by 5 or 6 degrees.

Leo the Dog Sep 23, 2010 3:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Meat (Post 4989961)
Yup. It has one of the highest snowfall totals in the US for a big metro. But it's not nearly as snowy. Let me try and explain... I went to HS in Columbus. They get like, maybe, 25 inches. However, 3 inches of snow may fall, which is a big event for them, and two or three weeks later, there will still be snow on the ground. Here, you can get 20 inches falling in Denver, and it will all be gone in the next day or two.

The average temps are higher (fairly mild compared to a lot of the country) and there is abundant sunshine.

So, yes, a lot of snow falls, but it doesn't stick around, and winters aren't nearly as dreary. I've lived all up and down the eastern seaboard and feel that this is a far better winter climate.

Also, look at those graphs, Philly is only higher because Denver cools off so much at night in the summer (trust me, this is a good thing, going from 95 to 65 or 60 at night). So going off nighttime temperatures, it raises the average of Philly to 3 degrees higher, but in the wintertime, the daytime highs in Denver are higher, by 5 or 6 degrees.

You kinda sound like a Phoenician saying that the heat really isn't like the heat elsewhere. Its hot, no matter how dry it is. I never said that one climate was better than another. Denver has a great climate, hot summers, cold winters.

And yes, I agree that Denver does cool off at night (especially during the winter). Denver also cools off to the low-teens (on average) during the winter. I understand the difference in snows, the east does have more water content than the powdery west. All I'm saying is, if one is looking for a moderate/warm climate, I wouldn't put Denver on the list.

Philadelphia:
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia#Climate
Quote:

Philadelphia summers are typically hot and muggy, fall and spring are generally mild, and winter is cold. Snowfall is variable, with some winters bringing only light snow and others bringing several major snowstorms. The average annual snowfall is 19.3 in (49.0 cm).
Denver:
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver#Climate
Quote:

The season's first snowfall generally occurs around October 19, and the last snowfall is about April 27, averaging 61 inches (155 cm) of seasonal accumulation....Winter's in Denver are considered cold and dry. The normal high's are in the mid 40's and low 50's, and the lows are in the low 20's and into the teens. Denver's winters can vary from mild to cold
Denver records one of the earliest frosts for most big cities. It's cold at night during a good part of the year.
Source: http://www.americanmeadows.com/Quick...DateChart.aspx

First Frost Chart:

Boston, MA
11/8
Buffalo, NY
10/25
Chicago, IL
10/28
Cleveland, OH
10/20
Denver, CO
10/14

New York, NY
11/12
Philadelphia, PA
11/17

Washington, DC
10/28

Strange Meat Sep 23, 2010 6:14 PM

Our average highs in winter are still higher than Philly, so it feels warmer. Unless you live your life from 5pm-9am.

And yeah, coming from high school in Ohio to college in Phx I'd definitely say the heat is different. Give me 105 and dry over 90 with 90% humidity any day. Humidity has a multiplying effect - it makes hot and cold both feel moreso.

I will say this city has some of the most extreme weather of anywhere I've been. And I mean that by swigs, so for example how a 40deg difference between a daily high and low doesn't seem all that wierd. Or snow one day and weather in the 70s a couple days before or after. Snow in May? Just as likely as 70 in January. Only thing you really don't ever see is more than 2 days in a row of overcast.

dtnphx Sep 23, 2010 6:47 PM

:slob: This is stimulating banter at its best. Snow is cold, here is why, the sun is hot, here is the proof. You're both right. Now clean up the spooge and move on.

Strange Meat Sep 23, 2010 7:24 PM

Hey, I'm just saying when you say "cold winter" people think of Buffalo or Cleveland or the East Coast where you just hunker down, don't see the sun, and are miserable from November through April. :tup:

Leo the Dog Sep 23, 2010 8:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Meat (Post 4991187)
Hey, I'm just saying when you say "cold winter" people think of Buffalo or Cleveland or the East Coast where you just hunker down, don't see the sun, and are miserable from November through April. :tup:

Buffalo, Cleveland and parts of the E. Coast is a given. Many people include Denver in that list too. :tup:

Evil Empire Sep 23, 2010 8:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Meat (Post 4991073)
Our average highs in winter are still higher than Philly, so it feels warmer. Unless you live your life from 5pm-9am.

And yeah, coming from high school in Ohio to college in Phx I'd definitely say the heat is different. Give me 105 and dry over 90 with 90% humidity any day. Humidity has a multiplying effect - it makes hot and cold both feel moreso.

I will say this city has some of the most extreme weather of anywhere I've been. And I mean that by swigs, so for example how a 40deg difference between a daily high and low doesn't seem all that wierd. Or snow one day and weather in the 70s a couple days before or after. Snow in May? Just as likely as 70 in January. Only thing you really don't ever see is more than 2 days in a row of overcast.

That would be an adventure, at least.

My best friend goes to Denver once every 3 months or so to visit his brother and he's always talking about how he experiences all 4 seasons in the 7 days that he usually stays there...except when he visits in July.

Strange Meat Sep 23, 2010 9:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog (Post 4991242)
Buffalo, Cleveland and parts of the E. Coast is a given. Many people include Denver in that list too. :tup:

Right, but it's totally TOTALLY different here, which is my whole point. It's something that took me quite by surprise (pleasantly) when I moved here.

Don B. Sep 24, 2010 12:09 AM

This is anecdotal, but two of my neighbors have been laid off in the last two days (one male and one female), along with another male friend who lives about four miles away.

WTF? Just coincidence, I'm sure, but still.

Arizona's not out of the woods by a long shot.

--don

Strange Meat Sep 24, 2010 12:29 AM

That sucks. From what I've read/heard isn't AZ supposed to be one of the more worse off areas right now?

Buckeye Native 001 Sep 24, 2010 12:50 AM

We don't have a white collar workforce. That's half the problem...

Teacher_AZ_84 Sep 24, 2010 2:01 AM

I've been laid off since May (second time in a row) from 2 separate school districts. I vowed NOT to return to K-12 education and apply in higher-ed. Countless positions without a single interview. I am at my wits end with this state and have been looking elsewhere from sometime. I am a 5th generation Arizonan and it's not an easy decision. I am tired of hearing how AZ is improving when that is not what I am witnessing.

Leo the Dog Sep 24, 2010 1:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don B. (Post 4991585)
This is anecdotal, but two of my neighbors have been laid off in the last two days (one male and one female), along with another male friend who lives about four miles away.

WTF? Just coincidence, I'm sure, but still.

Arizona's not out of the woods by a long shot.

--don

I had an appointment at my bank yesterday and the employee I talked to asked me "what's going on in AZ? Most of my new customers are from there, you're my 6th in a week."

Vicelord John Sep 25, 2010 12:19 AM

Does anyone have a copy of Robert Melikian's Vanishing Phoenix? I'd love to borrow it if you do.

Looking at old pictures of the old Fox Theater makes me sick.

HooverDam Sep 25, 2010 7:29 AM

Hey all the Grand Avenue Festival is tomorrow, more info here:

http://grandavephoenix.com/

They're doing 're-dapt' tours at 8, 9 and 10am. Ill be one of the tour guides on the 9am leg, and the forums own NIXPHX77 will be a guide on the 10am tour. Tickets are just $10, can be purchased at Kooky Krafts. There will be events all day, live music, performances, etc. They're also going to have some renderings or information from what I understand about the GARP (Grand Ave Rail Project).

HX_Guy Sep 25, 2010 6:22 PM

Change a subject a bit...

G Star Raw is opening a store in Scottsdale Fashion Square the first week of November, the first such store in the Southwest. I love their stuff but really wish they would have chosen downtown for the opening. Financially I'm sure it make a lot more sense to open in Scottsdale due to the demographics but it would have been awesome to see it open downtown, it's definitely a destination type store that people who know about the brand would drive to.

Vicelord John Sep 25, 2010 7:06 PM

Looking at the website, it looks like the new Affliction (g star raw) will fit in very well with the douchebag clubbers in old town.

HX_Guy Sep 25, 2010 7:11 PM

Affliction? G Star Raw is nothing like Affliction, unless you're just saying it will get trendy like Affliction. I can't stand Affliction or the types of people that typically wear it.

Vicelord John Sep 25, 2010 8:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HX_Guy (Post 4993713)
Affliction? G Star Raw is nothing like Affliction, unless you're just saying it will get trendy like Affliction. I can't stand Affliction or the types of people that typically wear it.

I'm saying that every douchebag in old town scottsdale will eat it up. Marketers are smart man, they opened there for a reason.

bwonger06 Sep 26, 2010 1:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicelord John (Post 4993752)
I'm saying that every douchebag in old town scottsdale will eat it up. Marketers are smart man, they opened there for a reason.

They open there because that is the only part of the city that has enough customers with money to buy anything. Look at Barneys, Neiman, Hub, etc. You will never see a "Scottsdale Douche" wearing anything from there and I think the same will apply to G-Star.

Honestly, if you want to buy G-Star just go to Hub.


In other news - Also went to Sidebar yesterday. I really like the place and the environment. Cool building, only wish it was closer to the light rail. I still need to go to visit CityScape at night. Probably take a trip during the pub crawl in a few weeks.

Vicelord John Sep 26, 2010 1:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwonger06 (Post 4993929)
In other news - Also went to Sidebar yesterday. I really like the place and the environment. Cool building, only wish it was closer to the light rail. I still need to go to visit CityScape at night. Probably take a trip during the pub crawl in a few weeks.

Thats funny you say that, because I always bitched that it was too far from the train too. I walk three times a week to either Seamus or Lucky Strike which are both 6 blocks from home. The Mcdowell station to SideBar is 7 blocks (1/2 mile) down Lynwood, which really isn't bad at all.

Maybe it seems like it's too far because it blows.

bwonger06 Sep 26, 2010 2:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicelord John (Post 4993937)
Thats funny you say that, because I always bitched that it was too far from the train too. I walk three times a week to either Seamus or Lucky Strike which are both 6 blocks from home. The Mcdowell station to SideBar is 7 blocks (1/2 mile) down Lynwood, which really isn't bad at all.

Maybe it seems like it's too far because it blows.

Actually that isn't too far (10-15 walk at most). And there are not too many lounge/trendy bars in downtown that are not overrun with gay people plus Sidebar makes some wicked drinks.

Vicelord John Sep 26, 2010 2:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwonger06 (Post 4993980)
Actually that isn't too far (10-15 walk at most). And there are not too many lounge/trendy bars in downtown that are not overrun with gay people plus Sidebar makes some wicked drinks.

I'll give you the wicked drinks point. As for gays, meh, I could care less. I just feel like everytime I step in there that everyone is thinking they are better than the person next to them. Seems like a lot of scottsdale type attitude. Plus, I prefer the drink menu at Hanny's.

HX_Guy Sep 26, 2010 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwonger06 (Post 4993929)
They open there because that is the only part of the city that has enough customers with money to buy anything. Look at Barneys, Neiman, Hub, etc. You will never see a "Scottsdale Douche" wearing anything from there and I think the same will apply to G-Star.

Honestly, if you want to buy G-Star just go to Hub.


G Star is being opened by the same owners of HUB so I assume HUB will no longer carry G Star. I have bought a few things there but their selection was kind of limited, or a least pretty conservative. I hope their G Star store will carry the same things you find in their San Francisco store, I cold have walked in there blind folded and walked out with something I'd like. :)

HooverDam Sep 30, 2010 2:52 PM

FYI this afternoon at 4:30 at the Irish Cultural Center there will be a 'visioning' meeting regarding Hance Park. Come on by and watch me become apoplectic about the City's lack of vision.

NorthScottsdale Oct 4, 2010 9:19 PM

Great news!! I've finally moved into the central corridor.. I'm living uptown now off of central and camelback! Woot! I guess maybe I should change my screenname...

Vicelord John Oct 4, 2010 9:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthScottsdale (Post 5004223)
Great news!! I've finally moved into the central corridor.. I'm living uptown now off of central and camelback! Woot! I guess maybe I should change my screenname...

congratulations. Hopefully you didn't buy anything in Landmark, but welcome to the neighborhood either way.

Don B. Oct 5, 2010 2:56 AM

^ The Duke of Downtown? LOL...

Made me think of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E31HluCz6E

--don

SunDevil Oct 5, 2010 3:59 AM

hey! going to Jack Johnson on 10/10/10 at cricket pavilion. just thought I'd put it out there in case anyone else is going.

Vicelord John Oct 5, 2010 4:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don B. (Post 5004635)
^ The Duke of Downtown? LOL...

Made me think of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E31HluCz6E

--don

Yes. I run it. Don't fuck with me.

Vicelord John Oct 6, 2010 7:08 PM

didn't know where to post this....

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d6.../DSC_41031.jpg

Evil Empire Oct 7, 2010 6:03 AM

Nice shot.

What a huge difference only 2 buildings would make...

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/9287/pshaha.png

HooverDam Oct 7, 2010 7:11 AM

^Nice but can you put something North of the Sheraton to obscure that monstrosity?

I feel so bad for anyone who lives in 215 E McKinley who's entire southern view is dominated by the towering tan tombstone.


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