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T-Mac May 29, 2008 10:35 PM

:previous:
I agree completely with you UTPlanner.

urbanboy May 29, 2008 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UTPlanner (Post 3581900)
How can I call myself a planner? Which one of us is actually employed as a planner? Which one of us has years of experience as a planner?

There is a time to be idealistic and there is a time to be a realist. I make the right choices in my life because I think they are the right choices. I will certainly always recommend the right decisions when I am asked in my job but I will always leave the decisions up to our elected leaders (my bosses).

I won't let you get to me because you're just a kid. Your immature attitude is obvious in each of your posts. Talk to me in about 10 years. I have a feeling you won't be singing the same song.

Just remember that those in life that are seeking acceptance from the world and society should not be the ones to not accept others and their ideas.

Here is an excerpt from a paper I wrote last semester:

"Is it unrealistic to be idealistic? This question came about after a classmate told me that one of her professors told her she was being too idealistic. This professor has been in the planning field for a while and apparently has become very “realistic.” This scared me, and I wondered if I was doomed to the same outlook. I wondered if I could stand up to the seemingly acceptable standard of mediocrity. Then I realized that my understanding of ethics in planning, however meager it may be, will never allow me to lose my passion for how things ought to be, rather than giving into a “this is reality, this is how things are” attitude.

Now to answer the question, it is unrealistic not to be idealistic? The ideal scenario is brought about by the answering of ethical questions. Therefore, it would be unethical not to be idealistic."

UTPlanner May 29, 2008 10:52 PM

I think that a person can be both realistic and idealistic in their career and in their personal life.

Just remember to focus on both grand ideas and reality if you ever want to have a career as a planner. Whether you work as a consultant or in a government position you will always have a client or a boss. What happens if a developer hires your company to design a suburban subdivision and he wants 1/2 acre lots and 66' roadways? What if the Mayor and Council of your community disagrees with the General Plan that you have recommended and asks you to mold it to their desires? Do you quit/lose your job? Or do you realize that you don't need to lose your zeal for idealism but still realize that reality exists and that you have a job to do?

Leaving school was disillusioning, and it was the same way with nearly every planner that I know. I spoke with fellow planners at the last APA Conference after I gave a presentation on Multi-modal Transportation Systems. (I am recognized as a planner and have been asked to speak by a few organizations, APA and ULI being two of them) What is taught in school is a wonderful foundation but some day the real world comes knocking.

Just something to think about.

urbanboy May 29, 2008 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UTPlanner (Post 3581949)
I think that a person can be both realistic and idealistic in their career and in their personal life.

Just remember to focus on both grand ideas and reality if you ever want to have a career as a planner. Whether you work as a consultant or in a government position you will always have a client or a boss. What happens if a developer hires your company to design a suburban subdivision and he wants 1/2 acre lots and 66' roadways? What if the Mayor and Council of your community disagrees with the General Plan that you have recommended and asks you to mold it to their desires? Do you quit/lose your job? Or do you realize that you don't need to lose your zeal for idealism but still realize that reality exists and that you have a job to do?

Leaving school was disillusioning, and it was the same way with nearly every planner that I know. I spoke with fellow planners at the last APA Conference after I gave a presentation on Multi-modal Transportation Systems. (I am recognized as a planner and have been asked to speak by a few organizations, APA and ULI being two of them) What is taught in school is a wonderful foundation but some day the real world comes knocking.

Just something to think about.

Of course, I've thought about this alot, and it upsets me. In our code of ethics, it says that we should seek to educate others on planning issues and how they are affected by them. One of my life goals is to get Planning into the general education system, on par with Math and Science! This is the only way I can think of to effectively reach the masses and create positive change.

delts145 May 29, 2008 11:10 PM

Urbanboy, I would seriously suggest that you figure out a way to take what you are learning in school and at the very least, eventually becoming a developer who calls his own shots. Look at those development companies that you most admire. You should be doing some sort of part-time/limited internship with someone like a Milo, etc. After you graduate, you should have already developed a certain reputation and rapport with those type of companies that call their own shots and are in-sync with your own philosophy. These types of development companies will be an excellent vehicle for you to progress to a point of being able to call some of the critical shots on different projects.

What UTPlanner is telling you is gospel and you should listen intently. Don't think of it as criticism, but as part of your planning strategy.

Edit: Certainly, becoming an educator of the profession would be a noble way of moving forward. If you can combine being an educator with also being out there with your own projects,(even intimate,smaller projects can be extremely influential) this would be an even bigger plus.

urbanboy May 29, 2008 11:25 PM

I apologize UTPlanner for questioning your status as a planner. Hey Delts, I would love to have a conversation with you to help me strategize a transition from my schooling to a professional carrier.

T-Mac May 29, 2008 11:28 PM

I think that school sets a great foundation in just about every field but once you leave school and get a job, it all changes. The same can be said for public accounting. We tell new hires that what you learned in school was great, but now let your real education begin.

urbanboy May 29, 2008 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Mac (Post 3582055)
I think that school sets a great foundation in just about every field but once you leave school and get a job, it all changes. The same can be said for public accounting. We tell new hires that what you learned in school was great, but now let your real education begin.

I think it's a little different in this case T-Mac. Yes, I think the best way to be educated is by getting hands on training in the field. However, when you understand systems whether its the environment, a community, or the individual, and how they affect each other, and realize both the ethical implications behind them, and the consequences of being irresponsible within them, then you see that its more complicated and serious, making it unethical to say: Here's the real world, or here's your real education, when what is currently being done is irresponsible.

delts145 May 29, 2008 11:39 PM

So true T-Mac, Sooo true!!! :yes:

T-Mac May 29, 2008 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanboy (Post 3582075)
I think it's a little different in this case T-Mac. Yes, I think the best way to be educated is by getting hands on training in the field. However, when you understand systems whether its the environment, a community, or the individual, and how they affect each other, and realize both the ethical implications behind them, and the consequences of being irresponsible within them, then you see that its more complicated and serious, making it unethical to say: Here's the real world, or here's your real education, when what is currently being done is irresponsible.

I can see your point Urbanboy, but I would also like to see what you have to say in 10 years after you have left school. In the search to provide a living for your family, you have to take the ideal and give it a back seat to reality. I'm not saying to throw it out the window but take what you learn so that when you are in a position to make changes, you can. Sometimes, it's baby steps that can be accepted by people and not huge changes. I think that people hate to change the status quo. We all get caught in our own comfort zones and it can be very difficult to get out of them especially when you try to do it for the masses.

wrendog May 29, 2008 11:54 PM

Being idealistic is great. Have your views! Make decisions based on what you believe in! Just DON'T think that your views are the only views that are viable. That's all I ask.

urbanboy May 29, 2008 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrendog (Post 3582111)
Being idealistic is great. Have your views! Make decisions based on what you believe in! Just DON'T think that your views are the only views that are viable. That's all I ask.

Sorry wrendog, I'm not going to back down on my statement. If something is not sustainable and responsible, then it is not viable full stop.

SLCforme May 30, 2008 12:10 AM

Interesting subject, that is idealism versus "realism". I think it is true that give and take is the natural and best way for things, but when does compromise actually become a negative, leaving neither side happy, and when is it necessary to not compromise in order to maintain integrity and actually accomplish something worth while? I don't have the answer, but I am reminded of a quote
"The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality." -Dante
So yes, the real world happens and ideals have to be compromised at times, but certainly maintaining some degree of idealism throughout life, if it really is important to you, is a rare and desirable attribute. I wish you good luck in your career Urbanboy, and hope you do hold on to some of your ideals, despite life's best attempts at squashing them and making you conform to societal norms.

wrendog May 30, 2008 2:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanboy (Post 3582117)
Sorry wrendog, I'm not going to back down on my statement. If something is not sustainable and responsible, then it is not viable full stop.

That's great. Have your views, BUT, you are making a complex situation into a narrow set of rules. Fight for you views, they are good. It's just not the only way.

SLC Projects May 30, 2008 6:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrendog (Post 3581589)
Just had lunch with a friend and he said that a developer is planning on building an 8, 10 and 12 story towers in south salt lake. 30th south or so. He wants to do it now, so as to get a step on Market Station. We shall see if it pans out.

:previous:
While some of you guys were debating on here did anyone notice this post by wrendog? We could have another new project to look forward too.

Thanks for sharing the news wrendog. Are these towers going to be Office or housing or both? :shrug:

delts145 May 30, 2008 11:10 AM

Yeah, I did notice that Projects. I was thinking that if both that and Market Station happened it would create quite the little skyline in that area. We could call that area Downtown, since it's south and the current Downtown would become Uptown.

wrendog May 30, 2008 2:09 PM

Supposedly residential. Also, looks like Southern Exposure is going to move to..... Chinatown in SSL.

delts145 May 30, 2008 2:44 PM

A Tittybar in Chinatown. That's about as Hollywood cliche as you can get!! LOL

jmonkey Jun 2, 2008 7:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrendog (Post 3583081)
Supposedly residential. Also, looks like Southern Exposure is going to move to..... Chinatown in SSL.

I drove by the Chinatown development the other night, on Main Street. It doesn't look like anything is happening there.

psychokiller Jun 2, 2008 8:49 PM

Does anybody know anything about Millcreek Cottages on 3300 S & 2940 E where the SL Board of Realtors building was?


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